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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2011 : 06:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?
The same reason why a historian would bother record history.
I think the intent behind his question is a little different than how it came across... Say you are a chronicler of some sort living in Netheril. You will of course record all sorts of info about major enclaves such as Karsus or Shade, where there is a lot of stuff happening. But if Frehd the Arcanist raises an enclave called Frehdville, and then does absolutely nothing of any significance after that, how much effort are you going to spend paying attention to it and detailing it?
I've lived in areas where I lived in one town, passed thru a second en route to school or work, and then attended school or worked in a third town. And I never paid any attention to those towns I was passing thru... In fact, with one of the towns in question, I'd been working there for a while before I realized it was a separate town, and not just a geographical reference! I honestly thought West Melbourne was just another way of referring to a specific part of Melbourne -- I had no idea that West Melbourne was its own dedicated city (and it is, oddly, south of Melbourne, not west of it!). And there's another town in the area that's so small it's something of a joke to talk about it... If I was writing a chronicle about the Melbourne area, I'd lump West Melbourne into that and ignore Holopaw altogether. It's simple human nature to disregard that which is perceived as insignificant.
And how certain are you that there's even one single enclave that was insignificant? That description is highly relative. What one historian may perceive significant is insignificant for another. If the criteria alone for "significance" is magic, then all of the enclaves would have passed. Raising an enclave and keeping it afloat required a large amount of magic.
Well, with at least 54 enclaves, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the majority of them were insignificant. I can't see every single one having some siginificance, given that number. Besides, we know that some enclaves were more significant than others, just from what it said in their write-ups.
You mention that "Raising an enclave and keeping it afloat required a large amount of magic." And that's certainly true. But after a dozen or so, people get jaded to that kind of thing... I live on the Space Coast. I've seen literally scores of shuttle launches, maybe 70 of them, if not more. I try never to miss one... But to a lot of people in this area, it's like "Oh, another shuttle launch? Didn't they just launch one?" We become jaded by the familiarity of it all... We see a lot of rocket launches, too, but those are barely worth noting, compared to a shuttle launch. The Apollo missions also launched from the Cape. From a place less than an hour's drive away, we sent people to the moon -- and there are people living here that can't tell you which Apollo mission was the first to put men on the moon.
Again, people get jaded by the familiar. A Netherese enclave would have had to really stand out to be something more than just another enclave... And it's just not logical to assume that they all stood out. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 02:37:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, with at least 54 enclaves, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the majority of them were insignificant. I can't see every single one having some siginificance, given that number. Besides, we know that some enclaves were more significant than others, just from what it said in their write-ups. [snip]
Again, people get jaded by the familiar. A Netherese enclave would have had to really stand out to be something more than just another enclave... And it's just not logical to assume that they all stood out.
Just because one enclave was more significant than the others didn't mean those "others" were insignificant. If one compares Karsus's Enclave and Spiel, he would most likely proclaim the former as the more significant one. Karsus's presence and name alone were more than enough to justify that. But would such comparison render the latter insignificant? I'd say no. Netheril: Empire of Magic clearly mentioned the "contributions" of Spiel to Netheril. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 04:21:34
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Obviously, not all enclaves had such noteworthy contributions. This is further proof of insignificance. How much more do you need?
Oh, and this quote? Pretty much says that some enclaves weren't all that important.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible, but I'd say only to the "lesser" enclaves. Phaerimm "corruption" of the mythallars of the enclaves like Karsus's, Ioulaum's, Larloch's, Shade, and Delia without attracting the attention of their respective archwizards is highly unlikely. The archwizards (at least the ones at the top of the hierarchy) were strongly attuned to their mythallars it's almost absurd to think they wouldn't notice anything amiss to the very things that keep their cities afloat and their magical items empowered.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jun 2011 04:23:44 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 12:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Obviously, not all enclaves had such noteworthy contributions. This is further proof of insignificance. How much more do you need?
Oh, and this quote? Pretty much says that some enclaves weren't all that important.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible, but I'd say only to the "lesser" enclaves. Phaerimm "corruption" of the mythallars of the enclaves like Karsus's, Ioulaum's, Larloch's, Shade, and Delia without attracting the attention of their respective archwizards is highly unlikely. The archwizards (at least the ones at the top of the hierarchy) were strongly attuned to their mythallars it's almost absurd to think they wouldn't notice anything amiss to the very things that keep their cities afloat and their magical items empowered.
Nah. As I said "lesser" doesn't mean insignificant. It just happened that their contributions to the empire weren't as great as Karsus's or any of the major enclaves'. Besides I recall NO source book nor novel EXPLICITLY stating some of the enclaves---especially the unnamed ones---were utterly insignificant. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 14:22:01
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| It's not surprising that not everything is stated explicitly in our sources. That's why plausibility matters - and in that respect, I must say that I prefer LK's and Wooly's reasonings. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 23:27:00
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I wonder, if "supposed" fallen enclaves could suddenly appear out of nowhere for a novel's plot requirement, why not a less known surviving, still floating enclave? Mayhap a deity teleported it to some plane of existence before the Fall, and shifted it back after. Now they're floating in some unknown, uncharted part of Toril, totally isolated but prospering nonetheless... Though I like Shade, it wouldn't hurt to see the old and familiar. Shade's might and culture could be representative of ancient Netheril, but hardly is the magic they utilize. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 18:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder, if "supposed" fallen enclaves could suddenly appear out of nowhere for a novel's plot requirement, why not a less known surviving, still floating enclave? Mayhap a deity teleported it to some plane of existence before the Fall, and shifted it back after. Now they're floating in some unknown, uncharted part of Toril, totally isolated but prospering nonetheless... Though I like Shade, it wouldn't hurt to see the old and familiar. Shade's might and culture could be representative of ancient Netheril, but hardly is the magic they utilize.
-Completely plausible. The more Netherese Enclaves that survived the Fall cheapens Netheril's legacy as a fallen ancient culture, I think, but if an author/designer wants to, and gets the green light from his/her bosses, there's no reason it couldn't happen. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 05:34:57
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I wouldn't use the word "cheapens." High Imaskar rose from the ashes, but that hardly cheapened the legacy of lost Imaskar. It would all depend on the context and the author's ability to portray it with riveting qualities. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 05:26:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn't use the word "cheapens." High Imaskar rose from the ashes, but that hardly cheapened the legacy of lost Imaskar. It would all depend on the context and the author's ability to portray it with riveting qualities.
-I think High Imaskar most certainly does 'cheapen' Imaskar. Especially in the convoluted (and contrived, given who the leader of High Imaskar was) way that it was birthed, in Bruce Cordell's Darkvision, and the subsequent information-lite FRCG/FRPG sourcebooks. The legacy, the mystique, of something old loses it's sheen if it finds it's way back. Take, for example, the premise of Jurassic Park. After a while, if dinosaurs were brought back to life and kept in captivity, they'd be seen as akin to the more exotic zoo creatures we see in our zoos, and not...dinosaurs! |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 14:39:27
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One may change his notion when High Imaskar is given considerable screen time. Unfortunately, what it has and what is revealed so far about it is so little...
Another proof that resurrecting a dead culture does not necessarily mean cheapening the said culture is Halruaa. While outsiders didn't know of of Halruaa's legacy, all Halruaans did, and they were as Netherese as their predecessors, in almost every way, save for not wanting to expand their country into an empire. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Jun 2012 01:06:45 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2011 : 22:15:01
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Re. "they were as Netherese as their predecessors, in almost every way."
Dennis, what led you to form this impression?
Because I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Netherese who fled doomed Netheril in skyships to form Halruaa tried to form a society that was DIFFERENT than those dominated by the archwizards . . . er, in almost every way.
That's the impression I've gathered from Ed and various learned sages over the years.
?
BB |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 04:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Re. "they were as Netherese as their predecessors, in almost every way."
Dennis, what led you to form this impression?
Because I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Netherese who fled doomed Netheril in skyships to form Halruaa tried to form a society that was DIFFERENT than those dominated by the archwizards . . . er, in almost every way.
That's the impression I've gathered from Ed and various learned sages over the years.
?
BB
Almost all of them were magic-users. High offices could only be occupied by powerful (or politically influential) wizards. The wizards specialized in different schools, though of course they weren't really the same schools/disciplines as what their ancestors had. They were still fascinated by or fixated on the magic of flight, as evidenced by their skyships, whose construction was inspired by the floating enclaves. They used all sorts of magical items to better their day-to-day living. Even the petty squabbling of some wizards smacked of their predecessors' way of life. All these are reminiscent of the old Netheril. If there's anything that made them different from their ancestors, it's their less decadent lifestyle and their true devotion to Mystra.
Edit: Hence, I said in almost every way. I didn't say entirely, did I? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 27 Sep 2012 03:51:59 |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 05:28:24
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Why did they not seize Skullport?
- Telamont had a toothache/headache/epic hangover the day they were planning it, and was more interested in the pain in his jaw/head. Whereupon he muttered something about "my poor skull..." and the others at the meeting thought he was taking pity on the Skulls and letting them live. It did provoke some awkward speculation about his relationships, though.
- Because there is an ancient Underdark magic, Sayills'powah, that has granted them great endurance in times long gone. The Shadovar do not wish to contend against the forces of the Underdark until they feel they have a greater dominance in Sayills'powah magic, that will keep them safer from the repercussions.
- Because the first Shadovar to scout it out encountered Jarlaxle, who wanted to keep Skullport's profits around. He was charming at them, and confused them utterly. They're not going near the Underdark again until they're less bewildered.
Pick one. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 21 Aug 2011 09:10:47 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 07:30:48
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 10:42:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Why did they not seize Skullport?
- Telamont had a toothache/headache/epic hangover the day they were planning it, and was more interested in the pain in his jaw/head. Whereupon he muttered something about "my poor skull..." and the others at the meeting thought he was taking pity on the Skulls and letting them live. It did provoke some awkward speculation about his relationships, though.
- Because there is an ancient Underdark magic, Sayills'powah, that has granted them great endurance in times long gone. The Shadovar do not wish to contend against the forces of the Underdark until they feel they have a greater dominance in Sayills'powah magic, that will keep them safer from the repercussions.
- Because the first Shadovar to scout it out encountered Jarlaxle, who wanted to keep Skullport's profits around. He was charming at them, and confused them utterly. They're not going near the Underdark again until they're less bewildered.
Pick one.
*Technically, Telamont has no skull. He is made purely of shadowstuff.
*Sayills'powah? That can easily be countered by the archwizards' whatevah magic.
*To the Shadovar, Jarlaxle is an insignificant insect. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Why did they not seize Skullport?
