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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 18:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
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We've wandered afar from what this thread started out as, when Dennis asked "Why did they not seize Skullport?" . . . but we should at least recognize that both debates center on building arguments from too little information.
I do not recognize this; in addition, I believe that the statement highlighted above is categorically false. Many of the perspectives put forth in this compelling discussion take into account *all* available source material. Using your analogy, A Publishing Lackey, this is akin to saying that *all* perspectives on Ancient Egyptian culture are 'just frothy fun', because the complete body of archaeological work isn't comprehensive enough.
However, if you are just echoing my own points, on the importance of hedging statements of certitude, then 'Hear, hear!".
Oh, I would like to add that Ed told me, while in conversation with a small group at Pentacon, in Fort Wayne, Indiana, in 1997, that Karsus was the de facto head of Netheril. (I'm paraphrasing, of course. I would've liked very much to have spent the entire afternoon chatting with Ed, as the Con was quite small and Ed appeared to have a lot of free time at that Con, but the friends I attended the Con with were ready to leave, and we had car-pooled.) |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 19:28:26
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| The fact that this topic has wandered astray is a very valid point. I should like to see it get back on topic, please. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 01:40:40
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APL,
I don't reject all that Ed has to say on the matter, only those which negate my speculation based on the premise of NDA. True, Ed is canon, but don't forget that WotC has all the power to revoke what he says. So unless I see those claims/explanation in print, I wouldn't be so easy to accept them.
Those little information you and THO mentioned may indeed be little [Hah! Even that word is relative.] but that's all there is as per canon.
----
Wooly,
Sorry, I hate to be the reason for the sealing of this thread. So I deleted that post about the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy. Besides, I think I already expressed more than enough how I feel about that series in a thread I started in the Novels Section months ago. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 02 Jun 2011 01:46:28 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 16:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I do not recognize this...
-Agreed. We have plenty of information on Skullport, Netheril, Shade, Wizards, Mythals, mythallars, and whatever else. It's a "What If?" scenario with no definite answer because there's millions of variables to take into account. A fun exercise, with no real answer because there's millions of different variables to take into account, not the fact that we don't have enough information on the issues to project conjecture. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I do not recognize this...
-Agreed. We have plenty of information on Skullport, Netheril, Shade, Wizards, Mythals, mythallars, and whatever else. It's a "What If?" scenario with no definite answer because there's millions of variables to take into account. A fun exercise, with no real answer because there's millions of different variables to take into account, not the fact that we don't have enough information on the issues to project conjecture.
Not really a "what if?" scenario, since there are a few bits of lore on which we can base our conjecture (or mine, for that matter). Telamont has been endeavoring to find and re-raise the fallen enclaves (like Sakkors and that one near Neverwinter with a name quite difficult to spell). I'm almost certain that at some point The Most High did consider seizing Skullport (or mayhap he still does), because in the first place, it is a Netherese enclave powered and maintained by Netherese magic. Given all his available resources, he's undoubtedly capable of such measure. What keeps him from attaining the said goal is something worthy of an erudite discussion. On this matter, I am entertaining the possibility that he has struck an agreement with the Skulls which is beneficial to both parties. For all we know, maybe it could be as mundane as ensuring a "safe" commerce between Skullport and Sembia. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Jun 2011 03:41:05 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 18:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not really a "what if?" scenario, since there are a few bits of lore on which we can base our conjecture (or mine, for that matter). Telamont has been endeavoring to find and re-raise the fallen enclaves (like Sakkors and that one near Neverwinter with a name quite difficult to spell). I'm almost certain that at some point The Most High did consider seizing Skullport (or mayhap he still does), because in the first place, it is a Netherese enclave powered and maintained by Netherese magic. Given all his available resources, he's undoubtedly capable of such measure. What keeps him from attaining the said goal is something worthy of an erudite discussion. On this matter, I am entertaining the possibility that he has struck an agreement with the Skulls which is beneficial to both parties. For all we know, maybe it could be as mundane as ensuring a "safe" commerce between Skullport and Sembia.
-It's a "What If?" scenario- we're talking about hypotheticals, if 'X' did 'Y'. Anything that we talk about, that are hypotheticals, are "What If?" scenarios. What would happen if Evermeet and Netheril went to war with each other? What would happen if Elminster and the Simbul got into a full-fledged spell battle. Why didn't Corellon Larethian aid Eilistraee against Vhaeraun? Why is Mirt so fat? That we have canon information doesn't stop our speculation from being speculation. It just gives us a starting point to make our speculation. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 20:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"Also, there is some evidence to indicate that Telemont studied The Nether Scrolls directly, a feat that Elminster cannot claim."
Any canon source for the last clause of this sentence? I've never run across anything that supports it, and I think my Realms library is fairly complete.
There is no canon evidence to indicate that Elminster (or the Chosen)
studied the Nether Scrolls....
Until now! (6/4/2011)
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14621&whichpage=38 |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 03:27:05
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Yep. Canon Realmslore is always just a post away, here at the Keep, if you ask Ed questions directly.
I send them on to him, and sometimes nudge him to TRY to answer this one right away, rather than taking his usual weeks, months, or years.
For such a busy guy, he's been very good about it, down the years (after Elaine Cunningham pointed out the need for the Chamber of Sages, I more or less dragooned Ed, who was and still is VERY busy, and had a lousy rural Net connection, into participating here "through" me).
Over the years, we've managed to impart about 5 3e Realms sourcebooks-worth of lore information here. As per the original Realms agreement, every word Ed says is official canon lore unless or until contradicted/superceded by later TSR/WotC-published Realms material. And considering it's still going strong after some forty-odd years, I'd say Ed built a pretty good sandbox for us all to play (and dream, and speculate) in.
So ask away . . .
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 05 Jun 2011 03:29:39 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:00:15
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Larloch's 60+ lich-servitors are mostly unknown. Could the Skulls be among them? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:07:16
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-In theory, but doubtful. They:
(A) Aren't really Liches, per se.
(B) Don't reside at Warlock's Crypt, as I understand the other Lich servitors do.
(C) Are so inherently connected to the mythallar of Skullport that they probably don't have enough 'free will' to be dominated by another being like that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:51:10
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The lichdom of the 60+ servitors wasn't really expounded. So the Skulls might still be considered liches. Perhaps a new type----quasi-lich?
I don't think it was mentioned that all of Larloch's lich-lackeys always stay at Warlock's Cryp. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The lichdom of the 60+ servitors wasn't really expounded. So the Skulls might still be considered liches. Perhaps a new type----quasi-lich?
-Their 3e stats identify them as unique creatures, right? I don't remember what book they're in. But, hmm...They're a powerful type of Wizshade, maybe, tied to the mythallar.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't think it was mentioned that all of Larloch's lich-lackeys always stay at Warlock's Cryp.
-That part, don't know. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 08:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't think it was mentioned that all of Larloch's lich-lackeys always stay at Warlock's Cryp.
-That part, don't know.
I think he deploys most of them in strategic locations all around Toril. What use would they be to him locked up in his Crypt? He doesn't need "bodyguards." Besides, who's crazy enough to try to attack Warlock's Crypt? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 19:21:11
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I mean crazy and powerful enough that would require some nasty repelling by the entire bunch of 60 liches? Besides, he must already have imbibed them with instant-teleportation magic so that should he require their presence, wherever they may be, they can attend to him forthwith. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Jun 2011 19:24:07 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 05:31:58
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It does matter, because that would tell Larloch how he would field his defenses, or if he has to in the first place. If they are just a bunch of pesky adventurers, say, a dozen 4th level mages and a score of elven and human fighters, I say Larloch would hardly lift a finger. He can just send one of his lich-servants to bury the intruders in a quagmire, or burn them all under a meteor storm. BUT, if, say, for a reason totally defying logic and common sense, Shade and Thay send a large chunk of their armies to attack Warlock's Crypt, now that's a different story... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:17:12
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| -Larloch's response doesn't matter. We're just talking about who's crazy enough to attempt to lay siege to Warlock's Crypt. In short, dummies who don't know better not to lay siege to Warlock's Crypt, like everyone else. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Jun 2011 18:17:24 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 04:15:01
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It does, because we were talking about whether or not he would need the protection of his 60+ liches. If the threat is grave enough, then he surely does. If it's just mere annoyance from some demented adventurers, then he doesn't.
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Was Negarath ever mentioned in novels/source books other than Erik's Depths of Madness? Or was it just created for that novel alone?
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It was said that no one was able to duplicate Xolund's sentience-infused mythallar. Was it ever explained how he did it---what spell components he used, how long did it take to complete the creation, what measures he used in ensuring its stability? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 05:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Was Negarath ever mentioned in novels/source books other than Erik's Depths of Madness? Or was it just created for that novel alone?
It's an Erik-creation, so far as I know.
And it's referenced in The Grand History of the Realms, under the Hammer 1 entry for 1375 DR.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 06:05:27
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That's rather strange. I thought it had been fairly stablished what (and how many) the enclaves were before the Fall. So if that trend continues, WotC might as well "create" a new enclave more powerful than Shade and make it "the new threat...I'm not sure if I'm really fond of the very idea of creating enclaves out of nowhere. Aren't there more than enough fallen enclaves to choose from that would suffice whatever purpose a novel or series has? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Jun 2011 06:10:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 10:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's rather strange. I thought it had been fairly stablished what (and how many) the enclaves were before the Fall. So if that trend continues, WotC might as well "create" a new enclave more powerful than Shade and make it "the new threat...I'm not sure if I'm really fond of the very idea of creating enclaves out of nowhere. Aren't there more than enough fallen enclaves to choose from that would suffice whatever purpose a novel or series has?
I don't think we ever had more than a rough number, with maybe a dozen or so actually named. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 11:26:55
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| Establishing an exact number of enclaves would be limiting, I remember there were 13 at one time (age of discovery?) |
z455t |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 11:42:23
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I thought all the enclaves were identified and named, fallen and surviving alike, though some lack details, which even Ed himself (when I asked) couldn't divulge due to (what else?!) NDA. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 11:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I thought all the enclaves were identified and named, fallen and surviving alike, though some lack details, which even Ed himself (when I asked) couldn't divulge due to (what else?!) NDA.
There was never a published list of all enclaves. We know there were 13 at one point, but some time after that, the Nethese were lofting one enclave a year. I don't recall where I saw it, but I think there was like 200 enclaves, at one point. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 18:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was never a published list of all enclaves. We know there were 13 at one point, but some time after that, the Nethese were lofting one enclave a year. I don't recall where I saw it, but I think there was like 200 enclaves, at one point.
-The closest we've got is what's named in Netheril: Empire of Magic, plus the map of Netheril in TGHotR, which adds in some new ones (Undrentide, for example, featured in the Neverwinter Nights games, was made canon via that map). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 20:22:15
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I found only 29 named fallen and operational enclaves. But I vaguely recall (stated in Netheril: Empire of Magic, I think) that a new enclave was raised every year, so most likely there were a couple of hundreds more which are unknown. Still, I would prefer if the ones featured in novels are some of those identified ones. It would tie up with the old lore. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 22:36:02
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Not 29, but 27. I included the archwizards who created the said enclaves. Some of them would be perfect settings for stand-alone novels, like The Netherese Enclaves, or The Archwizards. Other than the famous ones (the first seven on the list), I'm quite fascinated by Jockteleg, Spiel, and Palter.
Thultanthar - Telamont
Eileanar - Karsus
Xinleal - Ioulaum
Sakkors - Xolund
Selunarra (also known as Opus)
Delia
Skullport
Jockteleg - Quantoul
Spiel
Maunator (also known as Sunrest)
Palter - Halavar
Doubloon - Tempera of Fenwick
Akinataer
Aquessir
Frenway
Hlaungadath
Jethaere
Juksidur
Lathery
Lhoada
Nhalloth
Orbedal
Phylornel
Quesseer
Tith
Tilendrothael
Undrentide |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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Why did they not seize Skullport?
