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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2011 : 15:51:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Nope. Telamont tries to minimize losses wherever he can because Shade has too few in number to afford to lose.
And for all the previous reasons I outlined, Shade could not permanently take Scullport
-The Shadovar, as a race, number relatively few. They do not lack lackeys, as mentioned, however- though, how effective a generic lackey would be in a delicate situation such as analyzing and possibly altering something as advanced as a Netherese artifact remains to be seen. Many a mighty magician would likely be able to serve the will of the Shadovar, via Prince Rivalen's status as High Priest of Shar or via Telamont's connections in Sembia. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 16:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
--The original context of this being brought up was "...Netheril: Empire of Magic uses the term 'mythallar' and 'mantle' as somewhat synonymous", and that using the terms synonymously, as it did at certain parts, was a flaw of the book, because 'Spell Mantles' (and clothing, as in literal clothing) and 'Mythallars' are/were two separate things. Similar, but different, just like oranges and tangerines are both similar looking/tasting citrus fruits, but different. The book shouldn't do that, when it does.
Oh, ok. It's just that in my post above I list every occurrence of the word 'mantle' in both books contained within the Netheril:Arcane Age boxed set, and in none of those passages is 'mantle' and 'mythalar' used synonymously.
But anyway, I guess that one could interpret that another way. Thanks for your thoughts, Lord Karsus. |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 29 May 2011 16:21:31 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 17:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Nope. Telamont tries to minimize losses wherever he can because Shade has too few in number to afford to lose.
And for all the previous reasons I outlined, Shade could not permanently take Scullport
-The Shadovar, as a race, number relatively few. They do not lack lackeys, as mentioned, however- though, how effective a generic lackey would be in a delicate situation such as analyzing and possibly altering something as advanced as a Netherese artifact remains to be seen. Many a mighty magician would likely be able to serve the will of the Shadovar, via Prince Rivalen's status as High Priest of Shar or via Telamont's connections in Sembia.
I think it would take more than a "Lackey" to kill all the sculls, knock out of befriend the other races living in scullport, and deal with the backlash of the powers that be from Waterdeep and the environs. It would take resources that would stretch shade thin. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 21:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Oh, ok. It's just that in my post above I list every occurrence of the word 'mantle' in both books contained within the Netheril:Arcane Age boxed set, and in none of those passages is 'mantle' and 'mythalar' used synonymously.
But anyway, I guess that one could interpret that another way. Thanks for your thoughts, Lord Karsus.
-Once more, "With the advent of the mythallar, arcanists were able to create magical items that would, in effect, be permanent incantations as long as they stayed within the one-mile-radius effect of the mythallar. The first of these [mythallars] was created in 848 by Ioulaum himself. He created an elaborate mantle that allowed the wearer to see in the dark and hear the thoughts of all those within 20 feet. Once this magical item was created, the floodgates were opened, and the nation of Netheril was suddenly faced with a glut of magical items. The prices of such quasimagical items dropped to one-tenth the going rate for real magical items. The cost of traditional magical creationsthose that required a permanency spellrose to three-times the going rate, since only those who left the range of a mythallar required such items." The entry marked "The Mythallar" is not talking about how Ioulaum created the first mythallar, then randomly shifts to talking about a specific spell mantle he created, and then goes back to talking about mythallars again.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I think it would take more than a "Lackey" to kill all the sculls, knock out of befriend the other races living in scullport, and deal with the backlash of the powers that be from Waterdeep and the environs. It would take resources that would stretch shade thin.
-I was specifically meaning just being able to legitimately mess around with the mythallar. In order to conquer the city, militarily, yes, Shade would be forced to expend resources that wouldn't be cost effective, especially with the Shadovar already being the de facto rulers over Sembia, a major source of overland trade. If they, by whatever means, got access to a mythallar, the Shadovar have knowledge to "safely" mess around with it, or if they didn't want to do it themselves, the contacts to find someone who could likely "safely" mess around with it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 May 2011 21:43:51 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 09:48:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Nope. Telamont tries to minimize losses wherever he can because Shade has too few in number to afford to lose.
And for all the previous reasons I outlined, Shade could not permanently take Scullport
-The Shadovar, as a race, number relatively few. They do not lack lackeys, as mentioned, however- though, how effective a generic lackey would be in a delicate situation such as analyzing and possibly altering something as advanced as a Netherese artifact remains to be seen. Many a mighty magician would likely be able to serve the will of the Shadovar, via Prince Rivalen's status as High Priest of Shar or via Telamont's connections in Sembia.
I think it would take more than a "Lackey" to kill all the sculls, knock out of befriend the other races living in scullport, and deal with the backlash of the powers that be from Waterdeep and the environs. It would take resources that would stretch shade thin.
Everyone that serves him [save his sons] are his "lackeys." The archmages who teach in their academy; the warrior-wizards; and the priests who also possess some power that deter others to trifle with them.
We have to take into consideration that the magic powering Skullport's mantle and mythallar is Netherese, something Telamont must have deep understanding of. And what he knows, he can teach. He was once Karsus's greatest protege, and one of Netheril's most renowned inventor/researcher.
I think controlling Sakkors's mythallar is far more difficult than seizing Skullport's. The former is quasi-sentient, easily given to its whims if not handled very well. Without Mags feeding it, Telamont should have been hard pressed trying to control it. But he does, through his lackey, and he does it well...So if they could accomplish such feat on an (arguably more potent) mythallar, they should be able to do the same on a lesser one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 11:28:36
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Wouldn't the Skullport Mantle/Mythallar be considered sentient?
It manifests as 13 Skulls...
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 11:39:03
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No, Brim. AFAIK, only Sakkors had a sentient mythallar during time of old Netheril. It was part of the enclave's uniqueness. Though, it's possible that given time and the Skulls' influence on their enclave's mythallar, it might have gained some mote of sentience. But I heard no mention of it. Not even in the Erevis Cale trilogy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 11:45:12
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Guess I need to re-read the Skullport Supplement.
I could have sworn that the Archwizards of that Enclave were absorbed into the Mantle during Karsus Folly... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 15:14:48
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Dennis, where did you get this: "one of Netheril's most renowned inventor/researcher"?
We have it from THO (who should know, better than the rest of us) that Shade was a "minor" Netherese city . . . and I don't think we have a single canon print source on Netheril that isn't possibly biased/one character's POV/passed-down (and possibly distorted) legend slash folklore.
I see Telamont as a powerful, old, experienced archwizard, but with less practical experience than, say, Elminster because Telamont has done less roughing it/seeing other sides of the world, and more commanding others in a hierarchical city environment. I just don't see him as a powerhouse, on his own.
From all that Ed's told us, "renown" wasn't something prominent in Netheril; we had a bunch of very independent, proud, willful, self-agrandizing archwizards all doing their own thing.
And THO has flatly denied your notion that Shade is a perfect hierarchy where everyone leaps to obey and there is no open or behind-the-scenes rebellious activity and intrigues that wouldn't benefit Telamont.
I just think you're basing all of this on an inflated idea of the puissance of Telamont. If we view him as less than all-powerful (demoting him from "greater than Larloch" to "somewhere below Elminster," it fits the facts we have of Shade NOT doing this (seizing Sukllport, for example) or that. Telamont and his lackeys have a far more limited reach than you postulate, and they're busy corrupting and taking over Sembia, with an eye on Cormyr next...
All of this spectulation is great fun, but it's just that: speculation. If you want more specifics, I'd ask Ed directly, in his thread. NDAs are probably going to limit anything in the direction of a big clear answer, but the Great Bearded Creator could definitely clear up some sidepoints in this debate.
BB
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Edited by - Blueblade on 30 May 2011 15:16:40 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 16:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Dennis, where did you get this: "one of Netheril's most renowned inventor/researcher"?
We have it from THO (who should know, better than the rest of us) that Shade was a "minor" Netherese city . . . and I don't think we have a single canon print source on Netheril that isn't possibly biased/one character's POV/passed-down (and possibly distorted) legend slash folklore.
I see Telamont as a powerful, old, experienced archwizard, but with less practical experience than, say, Elminster because Telamont has done less roughing it/seeing other sides of the world, and more commanding others in a hierarchical city environment. I just don't see him as a powerhouse, on his own.
From all that Ed's told us, "renown" wasn't something prominent in Netheril; we had a bunch of very independent, proud, willful, self-agrandizing archwizards all doing their own thing.
And THO has flatly denied your notion that Shade is a perfect hierarchy where everyone leaps to obey and there is no open or behind-the-scenes rebellious activity and intrigues that wouldn't benefit Telamont.
I just think you're basing all of this on an inflated idea of the puissance of Telamont. If we view him as less than all-powerful (demoting him from "greater than Larloch" to "somewhere below Elminster," it fits the facts we have of Shade NOT doing this (seizing Sukllport, for example) or that. Telamont and his lackeys have a far more limited reach than you postulate, and they're busy corrupting and taking over Sembia, with an eye on Cormyr next...
All of this spectulation is great fun, but it's just that: speculation. If you want more specifics, I'd ask Ed directly, in his thread. NDAs are probably going to limit anything in the direction of a big clear answer, but the Great Bearded Creator could definitely clear up some sidepoints in this debate.
BB
I would agree that Elminster has more practical experience than Telamont due to seeing and doing so much all over, but I would not say Telamont has "less roughing it". Shade spent over a thousand years in a constant state of war and strife.
I think it has been clearly established that Telamont is a powerhouse on his own.
Other than that, I agree with most of your points. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 16:59:12
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Hey Dennis, I can totally dig your perspective! We know that one of Elminster's most hated foes, the Malaugrym, were defeated summarily by Telemont. (A task El himself failed to accomplish.) We also know that Telemont is of much higher 'effective character level', than Elminster. We know that Telemont can call upon far-higher level allies than Elminster can, and more of them. We know that Telemont has immediate access to far greater wealth than Elminster, and that Telemot's wealth is far more 'liquid' than Elminster's.
We know that Elminster has some strange-love for Cormyr, and that Shade and Cormyr engage in a state of cold-war for nearly a hundred years; if Elminster could thwart Telemont, would he have left so many in danger for so long? Also, there is some evidence to indicate that Telemont studied The Nether Scrolls directly, a feat that Elminster cannot claim.
Still, though, I'd agree with THO regarding who would win in a fight: Elminster would win v. Telemont. Telemont's evil. Elminster is less evil than Telemont, so Elminster's moral superiority (wow) would allow him to over-come, in my opinion.
Regarding Thultanthar, we have evidence that it was probably founded after a meteoric rise to fame on the part of Telemont, and stood for hundreds of years. Telemont was so well regarded (for his genius), that the College of Mentalism had a 30% increase in enrollment after the publication of his later treatise on demi-planes. Shadow was probably Karsus' 'right hand man', and perhaps the second most powerful arcansist in Netheril. His magical insights were so far ahead of his contemporaries, he was exiled and death marked for them; well, until 11 years later when he was embraced as a super-genius.
In any case, it was certainly a mighty city of magic which far surpasses almost every other city on Faerun extant between The Year of the Shield to The Year of the Ageless One. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 17:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Guess I need to re-read the Skullport Supplement.
I could have sworn that the Archwizards of that Enclave were absorbed into the Mantle during Karsus Folly...
You've got the right of it; however, mantles are referred to as "akin to mythals" numerous times in that 1999 supplement. The later tome City of Splendors:Waterdeep dispenses with the relational aspect, and simply uses mythal. Given that we have from THO that Sargauth Enclave had a mythal(verifying the *later* source), it logically follows that "city-wide mantles" (Mythanthor's phrase, not mine, from C:EotE, where mythal and mantle are frequently used synonymously) can be described as mythals. |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 30 May 2011 17:13:29 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 18:50:50
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Blueblade,
Telamont is aware of all the bickering and backstabbing in his city, but hardly does he care, so long as they do all that he commands. He encourages competition to bring about the best in his servants. That's partly the reason he never intervened between Rivalen and Hadrhune, who were rivals.
So, nearly destroying Evareska, plunging Cormyr and Waterdeep in the flood caused by the melting of the High Ice, annihilating Tilverton, giving the Chosen a good "spank" on their arse, controlling Malygris and his demented cabal, seizing Sembia with far less use of their magical might (and more with their cunning), slaying a plethora of phaerimm and malaugrym which the Chosen themselves almost died fighting, and deploying countless spies in every corner of Toril do not make one a powerhouse? You must have a strange meaning of that word.
I am sick of NDAs. So unless there already is a published lore negating my speculation, I would happily stick to it. Ed has a say on all these, because they are mostly his creation. But he does not have the final say. And the SP is a glaring reminder of that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 May 2011 03:15:40 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 19:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am sick of NDAs. So unless there already is a published lore negating my speculation, I would happily stick to it. Ed has a say on all these, because they are mostly his creation. But he does not have the final say. And the SP is a glaring reminder of that.
-An NDA isn't impacting anything, technically, since we can't/don't know about it, so don't have to "abide by whatever is unrevealed", if you want to look at it that way. For example, Rich Baker and other 4e designers have/had a '4e bible', that had information we aren't privy to, such as the fate of certain characters, or certain deities, or other things. Since that information isn't published canon, as of yet, and isn't available to us, the stuff contained within is negligible, more or less. That 'bible' might say that Princess Alusair of Cormyr died ingloriously in her sleep when a random bandit slit her through. For us, though, since we don't have access to that information, for all intents and purposes, her fate is still a mystery. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 00:09:03
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| I can see how the NDA thing could be frustrating, Dennis. It's a real drag when one has done their research, are in possession of a dozen sources which support ones theory, and are told by 'no, you're wrong, I'm right, I can prove it but won't, and may never (sorry, NDA). But you're wrong.' |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 03:29:52
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SC,
Quite right. Glad that someone has fair comprehension of exactly how I feel.
----
LK,
I understand that NDAs are beyond Ed's control. He works for WotC, and therefore has to abide by their rules, even if he may not wholeheartedly agree with them. What I don't like is being told that I am incorrect because of NDAs. The fact that those information [claims, possibilities] are not yet published [hence, not yet official] makes them susceptible to change. Had it been fairly established that what Ed himself says and wants about the Realms is and will always be official, then I would agree to every little thing he says, even if he'll say he couldn't back it up further because of NDAs. But that's not the case. The fact is clear: Ed is correct unless WotC decides otherwise. Ergo, I will let go of my conjecture only when I see the official lore. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 05:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
LK,
I understand that NDAs are beyond Ed's control. He works for WotC, and therefore has to abide by their rules, even if he may not wholeheartedly agree with them. What I don't like is being told that I am incorrect because of NDAs. The fact that those information [claims, possibilities] are not yet published [hence, not yet official] makes them susceptible to change. Had it been fairly established that what Ed himself says and wants about the Realms is and will always be official, then I would agree to every little thing he says, even if he'll say he couldn't back it up further because of NDAs. But that's not the case. The fact is clear: Ed is correct unless WotC decides otherwise. Ergo, I will let go of my conjecture only when I see the official lore.
-I agree, and I view it akin to something of an epistemological issue (not this issue, per se, but in general- not that I agree with THO, though; there's an infinite amount of possibilities and scenarios that can unfold regarding the issue, and a blanket 'No' is only a handful of them) information might exist that says something one way or another, and it might be official and canon in the office at WotC, in Ed Greenwood's games at home, or whatever other "behind the curtain" medium, which NDAs are included in. It's not published content, though, and we don't have access to it, so the 'canonicity' and 'officialism' of that kind of stuff isn't absolute, but rather, a matter of perspective. Is the fate of, say, Solonar Thelandira been settled, since the WotC bible of 4e transitional changes explanations is in the WotC office, and those writers/designers have an answer? Or, is it not, since we have nothing in publicly published material that settles the question? I am in the camp that what is in those 'WotC only' kinds of things are not canon. The insiders can know what they know, and be privy to stuff that we don't, and obviously, that's fine, but until that insider knowledge becomes published and available to everyone, as part of the officially published campaign setting, it's more or less apocryphal. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 09:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Hey Dennis, I can totally dig your perspective! We know that one of Elminster's most hated foes, the Malaugrym, were defeated summarily by Telemont. (A task El himself failed to accomplish.) We also know that Telemont is of much higher 'effective character level', than Elminster. We know that Telemont can call upon far-higher level allies than Elminster can, and more of them. We know that Telemont has immediate access to far greater wealth than Elminster, and that Telemot's wealth is far more 'liquid' than Elminster's.
We know that Elminster has some strange-love for Cormyr, and that Shade and Cormyr engage in a state of cold-war for nearly a hundred years; if Elminster could thwart Telemont, would he have left so many in danger for so long? Also, there is some evidence to indicate that Telemont studied The Nether Scrolls directly, a feat that Elminster cannot claim.
Still, though, I'd agree with THO regarding who would win in a fight: Elminster would win v. Telemont. Telemont's evil. Elminster is less evil than Telemont, so Elminster's moral superiority (wow) would allow him to over-come, in my opinion.
Regarding Thultanthar, we have evidence that it was probably founded after a meteoric rise to fame on the part of Telemont, and stood for hundreds of years. Telemont was so well regarded (for his genius), that the College of Mentalism had a 30% increase in enrollment after the publication of his later treatise on demi-planes. Shadow was probably Karsus' 'right hand man', and perhaps the second most powerful arcansist in Netheril. His magical insights were so far ahead of his contemporaries, he was exiled and death marked for them; well, until 11 years later when he was embraced as a super-genius.
In any case, it was certainly a mighty city of magic which far surpasses almost every other city on Faerun extant between The Year of the Shield to The Year of the Ageless One.
How do you get "defeated summarily" By Telamont?
The war between shade(The entire enclave) and the Malaugrym lasted hundreds of years. El barely ever engaged them |
Edited by - Firestorm on 31 May 2011 09:40:38 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 10:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Shadow was probably Karsus' 'right hand man', and perhaps the second most powerful arcansist in Netheril.
Thats a very huge assumption here. Including the assumption that Karsus was the most powerfull in old Netheril 
The same goes with Telamont having more powerfull allies than Elminster. You are ignoring much published lore and novels here. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 31 May 2011 10:08:28 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 17:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Thats a very huge assumption here. Including the assumption that Karsus was the most powerfull in old Netheril
The same goes with Telamont having more powerfull allies than Elminster. You are ignoring much published lore and novels here.
-Going by what was published, he was. Ioulaum was a close second, but Karsus trumped him, "magically" and politically, based on what we know. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 19:05:30
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Than you know something I don't.
Where does it say Karsus trumped Ioulaum magically and politically? |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 03:07:26
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I agree, _Jarlaxle_.
It's rather hard to conclude Karsus "trumped" Ioulaum when Karsus tried for godhood, failed, and died . . . and Ioulaum is still around (we've been told repeatedly).
Unless one wants to conclude that, so as to be "right" in one's opinions, rather than being fascinated by the new tidbits of lore revealed in this thread and others by the creators of the setting.
Me, I'm flat-out mystified as to why certain posters choose to ARGUE with THO and quotations from Ed, rather than take the new lore aboard and do some revising of opinions and speculations.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 03:26:06
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Yes.
Let's look at the post at the top of this page of the thread:
"We know that one of Elminster's most hated foes, the Malaugrym, were defeated summarily by Telemont. (A task El himself failed to accomplish.)"
Canon source for this "defeated summarily," please? Being as the Malaugrym are still around? Nor do we know that this was ever a task El attempted; the canon sources I've read seem to show us an Elminster busy with other work, who foils Malaugrym when their deeds become too annoying/damaging to ignore, then turns right back to whatever he was doing.
"We know that Telemont can call upon far-higher level allies than Elminster can, and more of them."
Again, canon specifics of this? When El can call on Mystra, Azuth, the Chosen, and all of Mystra's servitors? Not to mention many Harpers?
"We know that Elminster has some strange-love for Cormyr, and that Shade and Cormyr engage in a state of cold-war for nearly a hundred years; if Elminster could thwart Telemont, would he have left so many in danger for so long?"
Again, canon specifics? I suspect the phrase "some strange-love" is used by the poster because none of us know the details of El's relationship with Cormyr - - which makes the poster's reasoning after the semicolon a bit specious, considering El has exhibited "tough love" in canon before (as in, he may well think Cormyr has to be tested and tempered in fire and solve its own problems, so as to grow, or something of the sort). We just don't know enough here for the logic expressed by the poster to be anything more than unsupported speculation.
"Also, there is some evidence to indicate that Telemont studied The Nether Scrolls directly, a feat that Elminster cannot claim."
Any canon source for the last clause of this sentence? I've never run across anything that supports it, and I think my Realms library is fairly complete.
"Shadow was probably Karsus' 'right hand man', and perhaps the second most powerful arcansist in Netheril."
Canon source? To quote one of the profs I had to defend a thesis in front of, "Perhaps always has an echo: perhaps not."
"In any case, it was certainly a mighty city of magic which far surpasses almost every other city on Faerun extant between The Year of the Shield to The Year of the Ageless One."
Canon source for the "which far surpasses almost every other city" bit? It's one of about two dozen named Netherese cities of the time, and for many of them ALL we know is the names. That doesn't equate to "knowing" this one city is greater than the rest of them - - and we don't really know much at all about many non-human cities of the time. To me, this sounds like the story about the Colonial American farmer who thinks New York must be "a little bigger" than the market town he travels to, Syracuse, but not much bigger, "because places don't git much bigger'n Syracuse."
I think that rather than all of these unsupported or half-supported opinions, we should ask Ed in his thread, and ask him to dance and weave around NDAs as much as he can, to get as close as he can to specific questions. So far, in all of these Netherese discussions, we've gone and asked him for "all he can tell us" about big topics and long lists of cities/enclaves - - which OF COURSE are going to land us all against the NDA wall. Ask specific, small-scale questions, and we may learn much more.
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 06:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Yes...
Hi BlueBlade,
thank you very much for taking an interest in this thread!
You know, I see a lot of 'bleed-over' between the "General Realms Chat" shelf and the "Sages of Realmslore" shelf. The "Sages" shelf is supposed to be the one where the discussion therein sticks strictly to canon, but I read a lot of opinion items there. Here, on the "General" shelf, we scribes are allowed pure speculation, but I usually provide citations for every point I make.
Guess this is one of those times when I should have added citations from the beginning!
Also, BlueBlade, thank you for honing in on my use of hedge-words. I would have lauded your professor's lovely metaphor; unless ones thesis is a mathematical proof, the use of hedge-words is imperative. No scholar can make claims of certitude.
I'll take those points you take issue with each in turn, and offer canon sources which support those points, to the best of my ability.
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"We know that one of Elminster's most hated foes, the Malaugrym, were defeated summarily by Telemont. (A task El himself failed to accomplish.)"
Canon source for this "defeated summarily," please? Being as the Malaugrym are still around? Nor do we know that this was ever a task El attempted; the canon sources I've read seem to show us an Elminster busy with other work, who foils Malaugrym when their deeds become too annoying/damaging to ignore, then turns right back to whatever he was doing.
I cannot offer a canon source for this statement, at the moment. Again, this *was* posted on the "General" shelf; I assure you, no such scriberly laziness would leak from my digital pen on the "Sages" shelf. However, I so seem to recall some explicit mention of Telemont and the Shades defeating the Malaugrym on the Shadowfell. Perhaps Dennis can come to my aid on this one? He is certainly more versed in Shade-lore than I.
However, regarding Elminster's punctuated loathing for the Malaugrym, I can offer this...
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Malaug (in his guise of Undarl Dragonrider, leader of the Magelords of Athalantar) slew El's parents - - and paid for it. Aside from being a powerful mage who pioneered shapechanging and learned easy access to a demiplane of shadows, Realmslore is still vague as to his precise classes and capabilities.
Or so Ed's current notes say; I checked with him.
love,
THO
Perhaps Elminster does not resent the murderous get of his parents murderer?
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"We know that Telemont can call upon far-higher level allies than Elminster can, and more of them."
Again, canon specifics of this? When El can call on Mystra, Azuth, the Chosen, and all of Mystra's servitors? Not to mention many Harpers?
Now this one, on the other hand, I can certainly back-up with canon specifics!
If Elminster can 'call upon' Mystra and Azuth, then Telemont can call upon Shar, her servants Mask (see The Twilight War), Talona (Faiths and Pantheons pg. 58), and Cyric, her willing dupe?
But I'd prefer to take the Powers of the table.
(As well as 'all Mystra's servitors, unless Shade gets 'all Shar's servitors, but really?)
The Seven Sisters are 28th level (Amandorna, FRCS pg. 280), 24th level (Dlaerna, FRCS pg. 276), 24th level (Vethril, FRCS pg. 280), 28th level (Esheena, FRCS pg. 139), 30th level (Myroune, FRCS pg. 280), 32nd level (Nethreene, FRCS pg. 200) and 19th level (Illindyl, FRCS pg. 280).
Amandora is a ranger, and Myroune is a bard; this makes them far inferior to their wizardly sisters. Illindyl is not even 20th level...
Rivalen is 33rd, Clariburnis is 29th, Brennus is 26th, Mattick and Vattick are both 25th, Yder is 31st, Melegaunt is/was 20th (i included Vethril, so I include Melegaunt), Lamorak is 26th, Dethud is 23rd, and Aglarel is 28th, plus two more who are not detailed in Lords of Darkness.
The Princes are both higher level *and* out number the Sisters 2:1.
Shade can call upon 1,000 arcanists. 250 of these are true shades, and of 15th level+. (Lords of Darkness pg. 84). That's basically 250 Vangerdehasts.
If you can name, or cite, a source which indicates that the Harpers can muster 250 15+level wizards, I'll eat my HDD.
(So maybe Elminster, if he *really* had to (not really his style), could call in ALL the guys who performed the Myriad at Rhymanthiin...I still think they'd be outnumbered.)
Ok, regarding this,
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"We know that Elminster has some strange-love for Cormyr, and that Shade and Cormyr engage in a state of cold-war for nearly a hundred years; if Elminster could thwart Telemont, would he have left so many in danger for so long?"
Again, canon specifics? I suspect the phrase "some strange-love" is used by the poster because none of us know the details of El's relationship with Cormyr - - which makes the poster's reasoning after the semicolon a bit specious, considering El has exhibited "tough love" in canon before (as in, he may well think Cormyr has to be tested and tempered in fire and solve its own problems, so as to grow, or something of the sort). We just don't know enough here for the logic expressed by the poster to be anything more than unsupported speculation.
I am pretty sure that the phrase "cold war" has been used to describe the relationship between Shade and Cormyr in canon material, and I will supply that source when I find it. I'm pretty good about providing citations, my posts are full of them. If it exists, I'll find it. If I don't, I'll retract that mis-remembrance....
I would like to say that I feel that 'specious' is a bit offensive. Elminster Must Die! illustrates pretty well that Elminster has a complicated relationship with Cormyr. I've lent my copy at the moment, or I'd provide page numbers, but therein Elminster makes some pretty bold statements of fidelity regarding the Forest Kingdom. (Can't blame him, for whatever king overall command,*I'll* still be a Cormyte brave, sir!)
Elminster also speaks and acts remonstratively towards Cormyr in that novel, as well.
Nothing in that post is 'specious'.
Oh, I remember the citation for the cold war thing:
quote:
From: Forgotten Realms Campaign guide pg. 104
Forty years ago, under Azoun Vs reign, Cormyr fought the shades of Netheril and succeeded in driving them off. Netheril and Cormyr maintain an uneasy cease-fire to this day.
So that doesn't exactly say 'cold-war', but it does describes one pretty well.
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"Also, there is some evidence to indicate that Telemont studied The Nether Scrolls directly, a feat that Elminster cannot claim."
Any canon source for the last clause of this sentence? I've never run across anything that supports it, and I think my Realms library is fairly complete.
Well, an easier goal would be to find a bit of canon somewhere which indicates that Elminster studied the Nether Scrolls. Does such exist? Obviously I am unaware of it. If you are aware of such, Blueblade, please share. I would like very much to learn more about the Realms canon. My Realms library is none-too shabby.
The Netheril boxed set goes all into the Telemont/Karsus relationship. I'll get sources for that tomorrow (page numbers and stuff).
Again, though, I think you're allowed to say, "I think, perhaps, x y z..." on the "General Shelf".
Just saying: if you put in your thesis, "I am absolutely certain that the middle-bronze age Greeks used a standardized (equine)stirrup." (or whatever) you would find a braying pack of antiquarians, historians, archaeologists, and masters of war publishing papers thrashing your certitude.
If you said, "there is strong evidence to suggest....." you would just get a few braying researchers railing against you.
(I went one step further, and said, "perhaps". Just an observation, a recommendation for further research. But I've read it all, I think, and I think it's "perhaps" a reasonable idea. I'll post the sources.)
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"In any case, it was certainly a mighty city of magic which far surpasses almost every other city on Faerun extant between The Year of the Shield to The Year of the Ageless One."
Canon source for the "which far surpasses almost every other city" bit? It's one of about two dozen named Netherese cities of the time, and for many of them ALL we know is the names. That doesn't equate to "knowing" this one city is greater than the rest of them - - and we don't really know much at all about many non-human cities of the time."
You misread this. The Year of the Shield is 1367 DR, and the Year of the Ageless One is 1479 DR. If you can name a magocratic city in Faerun that is the magical peer of Thultanthar, is extant through this period, and flies, I'll eat my HDD. Like, literally.
(You could go with Evermeet, but it got Plagued. Rhymanthiin might be it's equal... but its at least a toss up).
Anyway, thanks Blueblade for the critique. All of my opinions are fully supported, and I hope that you can see that there's room enough at Candlekeep for scribes whose opinions differ from your own. I look forward to hearing some of your own thoughts on this topic, and reviewing those sources you offer in support of them.
Thanks again.
EDIT: I wanted to add this, from my post above.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Still, though, I'd agree with THO regarding who would win in a fight: Elminster would win v. Telemont. Telemont's evil. Elminster is less evil than Telemont, so Elminster's moral superiority (wow) would allow him to over-come, in my opinion.
And deep down, the Old Mage might even be a little good, in my opinion. |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 01 Jun 2011 07:21:15 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 12:49:41
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Than you know something I don't.
Where does it say Karsus trumped Ioulaum magically and politically?
-Netheril: Empire of Magic lists Karsus as a Male Human Arcanist 41. Ioulaum is a Male Human Arcanist 41. Ioulaum's "claim to fame", the pinnacle of his life's work, was developing and creating mythallars. Karsus' "claim to fame", the pinnacle of his life's work, was developing and casting Karsus' Avatar. Ioulaum came to be a 41st Level Arcanist after living almost thousand of years (born in -3,315 DR, the Fall was -339 DR). Karsus came to be a 41st Level Arcanist after living about three hundred years (born in -696 DR, the Fall was -339 DR). Karsus achieved more, in a shorter span of time.
-You could claim that now Ioulaum is the mightier of the two, since Ioulaum is an Undead Elderbrain of the same level (Level Adjustments and such brought him up to 50-something in 3e). He's also the only one that's actually alive (or, rather, un-alive) of the two. If Karsus had another couple of thousands of years to live, presumably, he, too, would have gone up in level.
-Politically, Karsus was the de facto leader of Netheril. Ioulaum, while an important individual to Netheril, historically and contemporarily, until the Fall, was not.
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
I agree, _Jarlaxle_.
It's rather hard to conclude Karsus "trumped" Ioulaum when Karsus tried for godhood, failed, and died . . . and Ioulaum is still around (we've been told repeatedly).
-That's not very good logic. To use a baseball analogy, that'd be like saying that Mark Buehrle is a better pitcher than Sandy Koufax, because the former has a career that was longer than the latter. Statistically, Koufax has a higher total career Wins Above Replacement value than Buehrle, dispute his shorter career (9 full seasons to 11 and counting). I can't use any other sports analogies (sorry people who aren't really into baseball, or friends not from the U.S. completely, where baseball isn't even a blip on the radar). Using a light political analogy, that'd be like saying that the politician who was in office for 4 years was a less effective politician than the one who was in office for 8 years, judging only on their political career. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 01 Jun 2011 12:59:42 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 13:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Netheril: Empire of Magic lists Karsus as a Male Human Arcanist 41. Ioulaum is a Male Human Arcanist 41. Ioulaum's "claim to fame", the pinnacle of his life's work, was developing and creating mythallars. Karsus' "claim to fame", the pinnacle of his life's work, was developing and casting Karsus' Avatar. Ioulaum came to be a 41st Level Arcanist after living almost thousand of years (born in -3,315 DR, the Fall was -339 DR). Karsus came to be a 41st Level Arcanist after living about three hundred years (born in -696 DR, the Fall was -339 DR). Karsus achieved more, in a shorter span of time.
If you just want to go by that listing, that would make them equal because both are Level 41. Arcanists.
The only published confrontation between those two I know of was the game they agreed to in the Netheril triology and there it indicates Ioulaum being on top of Karsus.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Politically, Karsus was the de facto leader of Netheril. Ioulaum, while an important individual to Netheril, historically and contemporarily, until the Fall, was not.
Interesting that you still didn't provide a quote for this from any lore. Again the Netheril triology claims Ioulaum being the first citizen standing before everyone else.
Why would there have been a empire wide panic (which drove Karsus to cast his spell) because Ioulaum gone missing in the war against the phaerim when Karsus was the leader and most powerfull arcanist? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 13:25:31
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SC,
Telamont and the people of Shade defeated the Malaugrym. But only those who obstinately came to attack them in their city. It was not mentioned whether Telamont attempted to root out the said pesky monsters from their lairs. But if he did, he must have missed some, for there are a number of them who are still around. Five of them are busy scouring Toril.
Killing many of them, however, was a great feat in itself. In RotA, Vala, upon knowing the Shadovar's triumph over the Malaugrym, once commented that they must have found fighting the phaerimm far easier. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Jun 2011 13:51:09 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 13:51:31
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There was a bunch of Malaugrym in Shadow of the Avatar Trilogy...
Shadowcrap before Shade was crammed down our throats by WotC. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 14:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If you just want to go by that listing, that would make them equal because both are Level 41. Arcanists.
The only published confrontation between those two I know of was the game they agreed to in the Netheril triology and there it indicates Ioulaum being on top of Karsus.
-And, as I said, Karsus accomplished more, in less time. Karsus developed/cast the only 12th Level spell in Forgotten Realms history. Netheril: Empire of Magic specifically says, flatly, "Many great arcanists were born in Netheril, and many of them outlived their own civilization by centuries, typically by lichdom. While many of the most powerful Netherese were archwizards, it wasnt necessarily a requirement. Of all those who did survive beyond the fall of Netheril, however, none were as great as Karsus"(The Winds of Netheril, 9). Page 78 also flatly states, "The enclave of Karsus was established in 3185 by the most famousinfamousarchwizard in Netherils history. Referred to as the Archwizard, Karsuss magical might exceeded that of Ioulaum in many ways, though he lacked Ioulaums discipline in controlling his magical research and desires".
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Interesting that you still didn't provide a quote for this from any lore. Again the Netheril triology claims Ioulaum being the first citizen standing before everyone else.
Why would there have been a empire wide panic (which drove Karsus to cast his spell) because Ioulaum gone missing in the war against the phaerim when Karsus was the leader and most powerfull arcanist?
-Because it's common implied knowledge. Netheril's elite ruled their Enclaves as kings/governors/absolute rulers/whatever word you want to use (Pg. 7 & 9), and their loose alliances was as close to a formal, centralized Netherese government as we get (extrapolating from page 8, where we are told that a company of Arcanists investigated the prospect of Netherese expansion during the Silver Age) Ioulaum's disappearance prompted riots in Karsus' enclave, and elsewhere, because less skilled Arcanists and "civilians" (non-Arcanists) thought that Ioulaum, a well-established figure in Netherese history, was sufficiently scared of the threat facing the nation to flee for his life. To use a contemporary analogy, that'd be like us civilians panicking if members of the U.S. Congress (or relevant parliaments, for non-residents here) began fleeing and being taken to secure bunkers in undisclosed locations because of some sort of alien threat. The Terraseer appeared to Karsus, to tell him about the trials that Mystryl and Netheril were going to face (ironically, caused by him) in -345, according to LEoF. Why go to Karsus, in lieu of someone else, if he were no the de facto leader of Netheril. Why not go to Ioulaum himself? When Ioulaum left, Netheril: Empire of Magic says that felt Netheril's fate on his shoulders (page 12)- if he were not the de facto head of Netheril, why would he feel the pangs of responsibility? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 01 Jun 2011 14:14:16 |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 16:26:12
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Hmmm. A little dodgy logic there.
"The Terraseer appeared to Karsus, to tell him about the trials that Mystryl and Netheril were going to face (ironically, caused by him) in -345, according to LEoF. Why go to Karsus, in lieu of someone else, if he were no the de facto leader of Netheril. Why not go to Ioulaum himself?"
We know, from GenCon panels with Troy Denning, Ed Greenwood, and other WotC designers of the time sitting together on them, that the Terraseer spoke to several Netherese archwizards (Troy actually described it as going around meddling, like Elminster does, with Ed's grinning and nodding agreement), not just Karsus. Which makes this sentence ("Why go to Karsus, in lieu of someone else, if he were no the de facto leader of Netheril.") based on nothing.
And as for THIS, from Dennis:
"Indeed. I intentionally didn't mention it because I was afraid of sidetracking the topic by expressing how dislike that series. [I haven't read the whole series, though. Just Book One, Shadows of Doom, and the first few chapters of Book Two.]
The Malaugrym are interesting villains only if handled very well."
I could be uncharitable and say things like "you dislike a series you admit you haven't read? And you expect the rest of us to take anything you say seriously?"
. . . but that WOULD be uncharitable of me. Not that I think that comment would be out of line for me to make, given your dismissal of the writing of the Malaugrym by their creator, writing which I think is good, and which regardless of anyone's opinion of it introduced the Malaugrym and defined them for us all - - obviously in a manner that was interesting enough that Troy wanted very much to use them in his writing!
However, I mention this because that trilogy describes Elminster handily (and SINGLEhandedly, for the most part) slaying and humbling various Malaugrym. In other words, it raises the suspicion that perhaps you didn't mention it because it shoots holes in the argument you were trying to make.
And as for not mentioning it because you were afraid of sidetracking things by expressing dislike...Dennis, just do what Ed told you to, earlier: mention and discuss things without adding a comment about your intense dislike of them, being as you've already very clearly expressed that dislike many times. If you just can't control yourself, limit it to a "which you already know I'm not a fan of," and say no more. Most of us, if we dislike something about the Realms, just refrain from posting in threads about it.
Personally, although I'm enjoying some of the speculation in this thread, I think trying to make cases for "X was the best/Y was the prettiest" about ancient Netheril is frothy fun, and no more, because we just don't know enough. It's like trying to nail down details about ancient Egyptian culture from looking at the writings on just ONE broken pot. Or trying to decipher the traditions of baseball by looking in isolation at the career of just one player.
We've wandered afar from what this thread started out as, when Dennis asked "Why did they not seize Skullport?" . . . but we should at least recognize that both debates center on building arguments from too little information.
Go ask Ed, who IS canon when it comes to all of this.
I know some scribes like to reject that, but that's like wanting to "repeal" the law of gravity. We're all stuck with it. We only know about the Realms at all because it got published, and part of the publication deal enshrines Ed's place, as creator, to speak canon about the Realms.
So if you want to know more, ask him. Dennis, you asked him already about a list of Netherese cities; of COURSE that's going to run into NDA trouble. Ask him about just one, or one Netherese person, and see how much he can share.
(I work in publishing; I have some inkling of how these things work.)
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Why did they not seize Skullport?
