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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2011 : 23:46:55
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Black ray of something, blast waves, snake of fire, fly, phylactories. All part of the Voldemort arsenal!
Firestorm, incasing enemy in water, Teleport WOE, shield, is part of Dumbledores magic.
I think that if Elminster where to battle Voldemort, voldemort would die instantly, but so would most wizards in FR.
In general, Its my feel that HP wizards have abilities that are not shown in the books or movies. But to no extent the cataclysmic forces that FR mages wield and in even more no way that of the mages of old, like karsus or Ioulaum!
I think that if Dumbledore or Voldemort had exceding amount of battle training, I would believe them to be able to take down alot of mages up to around lvl 10-15 from FR. When the FR mage got lvl 8-9 spells I would deem it game over even for someone like Voldelmort or Dumbledore.
and by the way Avara kadavar is not the only death spell in HP univers. |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 16 May 2011 23:48:28 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 00:10:05
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Transmogrifian Torture and Confringo were also used as death spells. The former killed Mrs Norris. Hermione used the latter in an attempt to kill Nagini. All those fire and blasting spells I listed [Posted - 16 May 2011 : 16:50:09] can kill, but only Avada Kedavra gives the victim a painless and instant death. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 03:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Instant? Yes. Painless? That's questionable.... And I'll agree that there are probably tons of spells in HP we've not even seen. And need I add- Expecto Patronus? That one would protect against quite a bit, methinks.
Expecto Patronus is only effective against Lethifolds and Dementors. Transfigured dragons and many other beasts are impervious to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I think that if Dumbledore or Voldemort had exceding amount of battle training, I would believe them to be able to take down alot of mages up to around lvl 10-15 from FR. When the FR mage got lvl 8-9 spells I would deem it game over even for someone like Voldelmort or Dumbledore.
Actual battles prepare a wizard far better than training. And this is where HP wizards are at a disadvantage. As mentioned by a fellow scribe, the world of HP has been enjoying times of peace longer than the Realms, where war is a daily or monthly occurrence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 04:20:36
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Yes, but most of the Realms' archmages have had more than just one war experience. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 04:28:29
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| If it comes down to that, I'd say Voldy's got some hefty experience in that department himself. He did kill adozen other wizards at once , not to mention all his plots and schemes to bump off Harry and various others, and now this big war he started. If one made a list of all his kills, it would tally like a D&D archmage's kill sheet. He's no slouch when it comes to battle. Neither is Dumbledore, for that matter. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 04:38:43
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Voldemort, Dumbledore, Moody, the deranged Bellatrix, some Death Eaters, and a few others from the Order are more like the exceptions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 05:21:11
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| Compared to someone like larloch, ioulaum or aumvor, hpverse wizards, trained in war or not would simply kill themselves to simply not die at the hands(or tentacles) of the greatest archwizards the realms have ever known. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 05:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
If it comes down to that, I'd say Voldy's got some hefty experience in that department himself. He did kill adozen other wizards at once , not to mention all his plots and schemes to bump off Harry and various others, and now this big war he started. If one made a list of all his kills, it would tally like a D&D archmage's kill sheet. He's no slouch when it comes to battle. Neither is Dumbledore, for that matter.
I'd still give the experience edge to a D&D wizard. D&D wizards often fight various monsters, powerful non-mages, constructs, undead, outsiders of all stripes, swarms of gobbies and things, and other wizards. I'd expect that to lead to some more creative spellcasting that one would expect from someone who only fought wizards. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:12:34
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| True enough- but in the HP world, wizards are about the ONLY thing to fight, so it's not much of a criteria to go by. If one was fighting dragons, they both would do about as well, methinks- except that HP dragons don't cast spells. Most other HP critters are not very powerful, with the possible exception of trolls, house elves, and giants. But none of them have much magic, either, except the house elves. And the HP wizards make up for it with quick thinking, and an intense study of magical beasts and herbology. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:18:59
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Oh, come on, they are sorcerers! There are many facts if we use D&D rules:
-the magic is innate gift, may come to usual folks or traditional wizards
-it is rather hard to learn magic after missing some age
-the magic rarely requires components other than potions (funny, I remember Snape for calling it 'true magic'. I think he is DnD sorcerer from other world.)
Also, about only wizards to fight. It is strange how wizards there are bad at counterspelling, like was said when the hats with reflect magic were sold. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:40:12
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The magic systems are very different, virtually incompatible.
Wiping away the Chosen and the god-like creatures that came to litter the realms like squirrel droppings and I think the HP universe wizards have an advantage. More magic items, more magic. But they have been at peace far longer.
As for Elminster versus Voldemort, well the winner would be Elminster. He's the good Guy, after all. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 10:03:08
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For what it's worth, Rowling has said that in a fight between a Potter wizard and a Muggle with a shotgun, the Muggle will win every time.
Wizards might think they're better, but that's because they never really moved past the 17th-18th century as far as understanding Muggle society goes. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 10:43:25
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Haha true simply drop some bombs and then....
But somehow the bottome line is are they better than dnd wizards??
Are hpverse wizards that much stronger in terms of spell arsenal, speed of casting and sheer power?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 11:00:52
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| Way to say it - undecided. The wizards of both world specialize in completely different directions. DnD wizards had Goddess to help them. HP wizards had peaceful time of harmony. Just one mage with finger of death can wreak havoc of Voldemort. Wizards of HP are like pacifists. Lets not pick on them, ok? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 23:50:17
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Wizards also fought the goblins at some point, who seem to have some sort of magic. But in general the wizards have not needed to fight many things for a long time. Some wizards like Dumbledore have fought quite a few times over the century.
Another thing to think of, except in some cases like Cormyr's war wizards etc, most wizards/sorcerers are trained individually, while Hogwarts have them all trained together. With hormones and teenage dramas your very likely to have had some magical brawl at some point, like kids having a fight in the playground. Unless the D&D wizards have been adventuring they may very well have never used magic in combat at all.
At a lower level I would expect the HP wizard to win, their speed of casting, unlimited ability to aparate, and practically unlimited spells is hard to beat.
At a higher level, the archwizards contingencies, permanent spells, spells that react differently when hit by other spells etc would be to much to overcome for the HP wizard. |
Edited by - boards on 18 May 2011 00:15:54 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 00:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
For what it's worth, Rowling has said that in a fight between a Potter wizard and a Muggle with a shotgun, the Muggle will win every time.
Wizards might think they're better, but that's because they never really moved past the 17th-18th century as far as understanding Muggle society goes.
She emphasized that most wizards are not combatants. But the powerful wizards who are used to fighting could win against modern weapons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 03:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
For what it's worth, Rowling has said that in a fight between a Potter wizard and a Muggle with a shotgun, the Muggle will win every time.
Wizards might think they're better, but that's because they never really moved past the 17th-18th century as far as understanding Muggle society goes.
She emphasized that most wizards are not combatants. But the powerful wizards who are used to fighting could win against modern weapons.
Sure, but then you also run into the issue with there being about three thousand or so wizards in Britain, with possibly another thousand at Hogwarts (if she wasn't counting the kids with the three thousand number).
That's vanishingly small, and the very few wizards who are combatants (generally Aurors) are even smaller in numbers than the average wizard. And the number who are combatants and actually know something of import about modern-day Muggle society is even less than that. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 03:25:22
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You're forgetting that the ones in Britain are not the only wizards in the world. Those visiting wizards in Goblet of Fire are proof of that. Rowling said that Britain's wizards are small in number compared to those in other countries. In the first place, it's a small country. It just happens that the ones who are [arguably] the most powerful reside there. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 05:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You're forgetting that the ones in Britain are not the only wizards in the world. Those visiting wizards in Goblet of Fire are proof of that. Rowling said that Britain's wizards are small in number compared to those in other countries. In the first place, it's a small country. It just happens that the ones who are [arguably] the most powerful reside there.
That was one of the things I found a bit odd about the HP books -- only European wizards. None from any of the other continents... If Britain has only a small amount of wizards, per capita, but could still produce someone like Voldie or play host to an apparent non-native like Grindelwald, what kind of wizardly evil could arise in a more populated country like the US or China, or in continents where there are still more primitive peoples like parts of Africa or South America*? And is there a wizardly version of the UN?
*Speaking of the remote tribal types, or those who have stayed true to their tribal roots, not the continents as a whole. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 06:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You're forgetting that the ones in Britain are not the only wizards in the world. Those visiting wizards in Goblet of Fire are proof of that. Rowling said that Britain's wizards are small in number compared to those in other countries. In the first place, it's a small country. It just happens that the ones who are [arguably] the most powerful reside there.
That was one of the things I found a bit odd about the HP books -- only European wizards. None from any of the other continents... If Britain has only a small amount of wizards, per capita, but could still produce someone like Voldie or play host to an apparent non-native like Grindelwald, what kind of wizardly evil could arise in a more populated country like the US or China, or in continents where there are still more primitive peoples like parts of Africa or South America*? And is there a wizardly version of the UN?
*Speaking of the remote tribal types, or those who have stayed true to their tribal roots, not the continents as a whole.
Good point, Wooly. I recall Rowling addressed this issue in her site a month or two after the release of Goblet of Fire. Now if only it doesn't take forever for every page in that site to load, I'd be happy to visit and check her explanation again. But this is what I can remember:
There are indeed quite a number of wizards in other countries. Some are as skilled as the European, but none as powerful and advanced as Dumbledore, Voldemort, and some from Hogwarts's faculty, the Order, and the Death Eaters. This is because magic is strong in the blood of the British, and their formal education [which is the first in the world] is rather advanced and more stringent. [We can't blame her for loving her own people more, can we?]
We mostly see the British because the Wizarding War is like a Civil War. The International Confederation of Wizards prohibits any country from interfering with the affairs of another. The Confederation only allows foreign assistance if one country deliberately attacks another. That is why Dumbledore did not bother to seek help from foreigners, nor did Voldemort worry about foreign interference.
Also, the Confederation were confident that should Voldemort succeed in taking over Britain and set his eyes on another country, no matter how powerful he was and how many allies he could muster, he wouldn't stand a chance against the combined forces of the Confederation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 08:00:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You're forgetting that the ones in Britain are not the only wizards in the world. Those visiting wizards in Goblet of Fire are proof of that. Rowling said that Britain's wizards are small in number compared to those in other countries. In the first place, it's a small country. It just happens that the ones who are [arguably] the most powerful reside there.
I'm not forgetting. It is, however, valid as a point against the overall power/numbers of HP wizards, since it gives a sense of scale regarding their average level of proficiency, and if the most powerful ones are Britain-based, then it's a point against rather than a point for. The ones seen in the novels are generally the paragons.
D&D Wizards are arguably more numerous (there are a number of mid-to-high level spellcasters in FR, for one, and although a setting like Eberron will have fewer, it has more widespread magic use to make up for it) as well as being more powerful overall just on a one-for-one basis, to say nothing of the D&D paragons (Elminster, Khelben, Mordenkainen, Simbul, or the really big guns like Larloch and/or Ioulaum).
(Also, as far as other countries are concerned, American wizards have their own school that they all go to.) |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 06:49:21
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One more advantage that D&D wizards have over HP is that some of them are not just pure arcane spellcasters, but wielders of other sources of energy. Some are theurges, capable of wielding both arcane and divine magic. And a few are formidable psionicists. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 10:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
One more advantage that D&D wizards have over HP is that some of them are not just pure arcane spellcasters, but wielders of other sources of energy. Some are theurges, capable of wielding both arcane and divine magic. And a few are formidable psionicists.
And some of them are elves! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 11:26:26
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Considering how fond I am of them, did it surprise anyone that I deliberately didn't include them?
Besides, HP world has elves, too; some of whom are nearly of Dumbledore's caliber. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 14:13:06
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I never did like theurges maybe its because of the whole divine power thing, i mean i respect the gods and all that, but come on, as far as a cleric is concerned, they will never be as powerful as their gods but wizards, i mean come on the EMPIRE OF NETHERIL, their archwizards openly scorned the gods, because eventually they just as easily gained great power. Now that would be an interesting fight indeed, the hpverse confederation against the empire of magic.
Place your bets anyone? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2011 : 00:45:19
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Not all archwizards scorned the gods. Selunarrans and Shades worshipped Selune and Shar respectively.
HP wizards can't win against Netheril. There was no Ban on the Weave yet at that time, so they would not hesitate to use higher forms of magic even if it means tearing holes in the Weave, so long as they obliterate their enemies. Despite the individualistic views of the archwizards, they would easily unite to combat a common foe. |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2011 : 00:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
One more advantage that D&D wizards have over HP is that some of them are not just pure arcane spellcasters, but wielders of other sources of energy. Some are theurges, capable of wielding both arcane and divine magic. And a few are formidable psionicists.
Potter wizards allso seem able to use psionics, Snape trying to teach Harry to keep people out of his mind is a good example. Normal magic seems to work against that efficiently, Harry uses a protego to knock Snape out of his mind.
They are also capable of using magic against the soul sucking mind numbingness of the Dementors.
I'm not sure that divine magic would be that much harder for them. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2011 : 01:19:37
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That's Occlumency, which is the art of magically defending the mind against external penetration, sealing it against magical intrusion and influence - the defensive counter to Legilimency. D&D psionics is much more complicated than just simple mind reading or blocking. The mind mages of Magic: The Gathering, when able to gather enough mana, could easily obliterate their foe, leaving nothing but tiny particles. Have you seen what Jean did to Professor X in X-Men 3? MtG mind mages are capable of that, too. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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DND Wizard VS Harry Potter Wizard
