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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2011 : 09:57:12
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I know this has been done before on other threads and links but I just wanted to start one here simply because... well just because i guess. The first time i heard about hp i could not care less because they used magic with wands only, and dnd was so much better. The amount of choice and selection....drool....
Anyway, if say 20th level Necromancer (3.5e or 3e) with Evocation and Abjuration were forbidden, vs Voldemort what spells could be used to battle, he who must not be named?
Your comments are greatly appreciated
Aumvor the Undying FTW!
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Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 10:07:25
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I don't know who Voldemort is but to my expirience other fantasy settings have a much lower magic level than D&D.
So Gate in a Solar/Balor whichever is the oposite alignment of Voldemort and sit back while it smacks him... |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 14:39:43
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I think the D&D wizard has a couple of edges, though it's hard to match up things properly in a cross-property fight. However, there are a couple of observations:
1) D&D wizards can completely negate the most feared HP magical attack. Avada kedavra is a death magic attack, of which there are literally dozens in D&D, as well as protections against death magic. I'm sure the first time the "unstoppable" curse bounces, it'll cause some rather highly raised eyebrows.
2) HP wizards can cast at will for as long as they have their wands, so in a long-running battle, the edge goes to HP. Of course, this is more an issue at lower levels; at the archmage vs. Voldemort level, someone's going to get killed before the spells run out.
3) This one is purely subjective, but I think your average archmage would have a combat experience edge on Voldemort. Voldemort hasn't had to do a whole lot of wizard-on-wizard duels where there's much of a challenge. Generally he's heads and shoulders above his opponents and wipes the floor with them. He's more a bully than an actual fighter (notice how he tries to avoid fighting Dumbledore, the only wizard on his own level), so a D&D wizard who has survived to reach archmage level would probably have a lot more experience in magical combat.
4) Also subjective, but forbid abjuration? Are you insane? Especially if you're looking to make a battle mage...
5) Jarlaxle has a point; one thing HP lacks almost totally is summoning spells. So a D&D wizard could make things really unbalanced by calling in some extraplanar help.
6) Finally, HP wizards are pretty useless without their wands. If you can shatter it (which might even be as easy as the Shatter spell; they don't seem to have much in the way of in-born protection), you end the duel right there.
Those are just the basic, off-the-cuff ideas. I'd say edge goes to the D&D wizard, but it's not something you'd want to be in the county when it happened. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 16:48:08
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| never did like the harry potter wizards..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 17:29:57
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I haven't really ever liked what we see of the HP wizards in the books, their magic doesn't seem to be all that impressive. We also only see their magic through the eyes of some teenage children.
But when you look at them in the movies however, I'm thinking of the end of HP 5: Order of the Phoenix where Dumbledore and Voldemort fight each other, that is pretty cool stuff. Molding and shaping your opponents spells into something else entirely and then hurling that right back at them... sounds like Chosen level magic stuff.
I do agree with Hoondatha though, there are many ways to just straight block the Avada Kedavra curse and the other "top" curses that dark wizards in HP use, so it should be a quick fight if done in rounds... |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 18:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I don't know who Voldemort is but to my expirience other fantasy settings have a much lower magic level than D&D.
So Gate in a Solar/Balor whichever is the oposite alignment of Voldemort and sit back while it smacks him...
-Don't really know much about Harry Potter, but I don't ever recall hearing about them being able to summon things, so the D&D guy definitley has the edge, because of this scenario.
-Also, aren't they basically helpless without their wands? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 May 2011 18:04:45 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 04:51:58
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| if it were instead some organization like maybe the cult of the dragon or shadovar vs order of the phoenix and death eaters, hp wiz's would be screwed over. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 06:19:55
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| Still if going by a vs debate then it would be better if we had a comparison like maybe someone a bit mid level in the realms against someone like voldymort. suggestions, anyone? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 06:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Thente Thunderspells
I haven't really ever liked what we see of the HP wizards in the books, their magic doesn't seem to be all that impressive. We also only see their magic through the eyes of some teenage children.
But when you look at them in the movies however, I'm thinking of the end of HP 5: Order of the Phoenix where Dumbledore and Voldemort fight each other, that is pretty cool stuff. Molding and shaping your opponents spells into something else entirely and then hurling that right back at them... sounds like Chosen level magic stuff.
I do agree with Hoondatha though, there are many ways to just straight block the Avada Kedavra curse and the other "top" curses that dark wizards in HP use, so it should be a quick fight if done in rounds...
cantrips is what I'd call their spells and maybe a few low level utility spells.
or atleast that is what I think..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 07:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I don't know who Voldemort is but to my expirience other fantasy settings have a much lower magic level than D&D.
So Gate in a Solar/Balor whichever is the oposite alignment of Voldemort and sit back while it smacks him...
-Don't really know much about Harry Potter, but I don't ever recall hearing about them being able to summon things, so the D&D guy definitley has the edge, because of this scenario.
They don't have Conjuration. Basic Summoning yes, but only certain objects within sight or, with much more effort, those which the summoner can "picture" in his mind vividly.
I think such lack is compensated by Transfiguration [Tranmutation in D&D]. They can transform almost anything quite faster than average D&D wizards, or even archmages. If you recall in Red Magic, Maligor, the then Zulkir of Tranmutation, took a little while transforming a single rat into a darkenbeast---his spell was long and he had to add certain spell components to make the transformation perfect. On the other hand, a powerful wizard in HP, like Profressor Minerva McGonagall, whose area of expertise is Tranfiguration, could transform a tiny animal into a huge monstrosity by sheer will. And note that they don't get tired even if they keep on casting for hours. In the two minutes that a skilled D&D Conjuror takes to summon two or three high-level demons, a powerful HP wizard would have already tranfigured insects, rabbits, rats--whatever animal is nigh---into thirty to sixty ferocious dragons. Heh, he could even transform his enemy into an ant, provided that he is able to breach the foe's magical defenses. [Remember how Professor Alastor Moody effortlessly transformed Draco Malfoy into a ferret?!]
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Also, aren't they basically helpless without their wands?
Indeed, they are helpless without their wands. Before books 6 and 7 were released, I was kinda hoping Rowling would "modify" such weakness. A wizard is practically crippled without his wand. A D&D wizard can simply "shatter" an HP wizard's wand, and he'd already win.
Even if the HP wizard, for some miracle, manages to keep his wand all throughout the battle, the spells that he can cast are still limited to the kind of wand he uses. Each wand is unique. A Crucio cast in one wand may have its full effects, and may feel nothing but an insect bite in another. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 08:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
In the two minutes that a skilled D&D Conjuror takes to summon two or three high-level demons, a powerful HP wizard would have already tranfigured insects, rabbits, rats--whatever animal is nigh---into thirty to sixty ferocious dragons. Heh, he could even transform his enemy into an ant, provided that he is able to breach the foe's magical defenses.
Well I don't know anything about HP but I still doubt they have a chance here. A D&D Wizard just has far too many options to be literally untouable by someone who isn't able to cast equal spells.
He can go invisible or even ethereal, he can cast Timestop, he can use quickened spells, he has a lot of magiacal defenses, he can just use some safe or die spells, he can use a wish ;) and so on and so on  |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 08:41:18
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In HP if you want to use D&D mechanics I would say they were sorcerers, but they did not know they could use magic without wands. And relatively the magic level is low. Perhaps they never had any urges to make magic of destruction, so no super spells cause no one needed them. And since HP 'wizards' have not so good logics as said in 1st book, I guess their spellcasting is not based on intelligence. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 09:03:40
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They have a chance, albeit little, so long as they're able to keep their wands. Apparently, JK has not made up a spell that would ensure a wand's survival. In fact, it's even susceptible to physical damage. Grab an ordinary ax or rock and hit it, it will surely break.
However, bear in mind that there are so many spells that Dumbledore, Voldemort, and several other powerful wizards before them created which were never seen used in the novels.
An HP wizard can keep on using Protego and never gets tired, reflecting all his enemy's spells. That alone might be what he needs to win a fight against a D&D wizard.
Between average wizards, I guess the wizards in both camps are equal. But between HP's most powerful and D&D's archwizards, the latter have a bigger edge. Compare the duels of Dyrr and Gromph in Annihilation, and Dumbledore and Voldemort in The Order of Phoenix [the novel, not the movie. Dumbledore never fell flat on the floor nor was he defeated---it was just the scriptwriter's foolish attempt at trying to portray Voldemort more powerful than his former teacher.] The spells that Dyrr alone used outstripped all that both Dumbledore and Voldermort employed. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 17:03:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
An HP wizard can keep on using Protego and never gets tired, reflecting all his enemy's spells. That alone might be what he needs to win a fight against a D&D wizard.
Not really... When a direct attack fails, indirect attacks can be quite handy.  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 23:42:14
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| HP and D&D magic systems are apples and oranges, entirely different species. Adapting one into the other - or involving Gandalf or Merlin or Jedi Knights or whatever - is just not as simple as automatically converting a character sheet. The conversion involves a lot of human bias and judgement, interpretations of how things compare in each system, evaluating which system takes precedance over the other when they conflict, etc ... so who would win a Dumbledore-vs-Elminster duel is ultimately dependant upon each DM's decisions about the systems, settings, and characters; results will vary at every gaming table for countless reasons. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 May 2011 00:14:52 |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 00:45:09
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Also while we dont have any on screen examples of massive magic, we do hear about much larger forms of magic, such as causing bridges to collapse, causing enough damage to be able to hidden as damage from a tornado etc. While there doesn't seem to be any summoning of extradimensionnal beings we do have, as Dennis said, transfiguration. There is at least one possible example of conjuration and that is in the 2nd(?) book when the kid Harry is dueling against creates a spell that conjures a snake out of nowhere. Bear in mind this is from a 12 year old kid with about 1 year of formal teaching.
On the wand issue, we do get a couple of examples Dumbledore using wandless magic.
As has been said Potterverse magic is much quicker than FR magic, but FR magic has much greater variety for what we have been shown. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 00:54:30
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| Bear in mind also that magic in the D&D game and D&D novels are not entirely compatible. How much worse for novels written for an entirely different universe. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 01:14:33
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I wasn't joking when I said a powerful HP wizard can summon dragons and other monstrosities. Rowling once said in an interview that Minerva and some from the Order and the Death Eaters can do such feat with sheer will, but she avoided doing so because it would create more than solve problems. Remember, they're almost equally fast in spell-casting. And going back to my previous example, a D&D wizard will most likely get tired summoning three to five demons, while an HP wizard can conjure a hundred dragons without breaking a sweat.
And, oh, let's not forget the spell that's very helpful in battle: teleportation. A D&D wizard can cast it at a limited number of times, sometimes just once, as a contingency. While an HP wizard can Apparate at, again, sheer will---infinitely.
Thanks, boards, for pointing out those larger forms of magic. The collapse of the bridge was actually caused by multiple amplified Reducto. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 May 2011 01:38:52 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 05:38:46
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| Still other than a simple snare spell, like the one galaeron used to stop the phaerimm from escaping, could be used to stop them from apparating at will. Other than that comparing dnd wizards to hpverse wizards, dnd wizards at least in my opinion win out, however if hpverse wizards were to battle against say a magically savvy race like the phaerimm, then it would be what we call a total ass-screwed on the harry potter part. A few prismatic walls can stop most if not all spells and a prismatic spehere with spell turning cast can virtually stop them from doing anything magical at least, not to mention those insects turned dragons would kind of be screwed to walk directly into prismatic magic. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:18:46
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An HP powerful wizard can breach the anti-Apparate enchantment of Hogwarts, so a simple snare spell would be pretty much easy to counter.
Phaerimm are in the same level with archmages. And as I pointed out, no HP wizard can win against D&D archmages---so neither could they against the phaerimm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:50:42
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Well still maybe a dimensional anchor could stop them from apparating.
I mean Vhostym vs Voldemort.
Voldemort would be nothing but a puddle. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 05:48:11
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I still am a bit flustered at a sudden thought, when watching the movie, HP and the half blood prince there were some instances when they used magic without wands.
Would this be cause for alarm when comparing them to DND archmages?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 05:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I still am a bit flustered at a sudden thought, when watching the movie, HP and the half blood prince there were some instances when they used magic without wands.
Which scenes exactly?
Even in Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoners of Azkaban, Harry demonstrated magic without the aid of a wand. But JK explained that such instance happens very rarely among wizards, at special occasions, like at the moment of heightened feelings; and even then, the magic a wizard is capable of unleashing is still very limited. Only a wand can effectively channel all forms of magic. So in D&D world, they would be more like a combination of sorcerers (1/4) and wizards (3/4). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 06:07:18
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| As I recall, HP wizards using magic without wands is not really all THAT uncommon- it's just that the power is very unfocused an chaotic. Remember Harry causing his uncle's sister to blow up like a balloon? Or letting the python loose in the zoo? These were the acts of UNTRAINED magic. And none of the adult wizards thought it was all that strange. It's like a D&D wizard using wild magic. So one could say that an HP wizard is more like a sorcerer/wild mage, and the wand is really just the tool to focus their will to avoid wild magic surges. In that case, the power level of the two may not be as different as one thinks. Granted, they can't summon extraplanar creatures in HP, but those 30+ dragons transfigured would certainly tip the scales! And as long as they were able to keep their wand for at least the first few rounds, they could keep the D&D wiz busy enough with transfigured creatures to wear him down and use up his spells. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 07:09:49
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Alystra,
Even without a wand, they can focus their will and cast a spell without magical surges. Harry just did so to his uncle's sister. Had there been magical surges, their house would have become piles of rubble.
The problem with casting without a wand is 1.) it requires more effort; 2.) it takes time; 3.) [most importantly] it limits the array of spells a wizard can cast [for instance, a wizard, no matter how powerful, will never be able to cast Avada Kedavra without a wand]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 May 2011 07:10:36 |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 07:15:26
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| The two major acts of non wand magic I can think of is Dumbledore summoning several hundred sleeping bags during the PoA? and changing all the decorations to griffindore. Thats pretty focused, but then it is Dumbledore we're talking about. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 07:39:43
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And Voldermort can fly and Apparate without a wand. But as I pointed out, he and all the HP wizards will be limited to few spells if they practice casting sans a wand. Besides, he looked for the Elder Wand to be able to cast all the spells he knew and to unleash all the magic he possessed. No other wands [not even Lucius's] could contain the amount of magic he was capable of unleashing. If you recall his aerial battle with Harry, his borrowed wand broke not because Harry simply outmatched his strength, but because his wand could only loose a little amount of his power, which in the end proved insufficient against Harry's. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 13:55:17
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| Then let us compare the untrained power of dnd wizards to hpverse wiz's. True hp wiz's do have some advantages in the earlier stages of their learning, but in the long run, a wizard of fr could just easily unleash more than enough power to level out towns and cities. One thing that is a hindrance for dnd wiz's is the whole remembering spells thing, if every spell ever learned is every spell remembered, just imagine. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 16:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
...but in the long run, a wizard of fr could just easily unleash more than enough power to level out towns and cities...
HP wizards are capable of that as well. Amplified Confringo, Reducto, Fiendfyre Curse, Deprimo, and Oppugno easily achieve that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 19:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Alystra,
Even without a wand, they can focus their will and cast a spell without magical surges. Harry just did so to his uncle's sister. Had there been magical surges, their house would have become piles of rubble.
The problem with casting without a wand is 1.) it requires more effort; 2.) it takes time; 3.) [most importantly] it limits the array of spells a wizard can cast [for instance, a wizard, no matter how powerful, will never be able to cast Avada Kedavra without a wand].
Not quite accurate. Harry's use of magic without his wand was unfocused because it was UNINTENDED in both instances. In the second case, he knew darn well the rule about not using magic outside of school, but was so angry that it spilled out anyway. It was accidental in both occurances. It took longer to manifest, but it was just as dramatic and powerful in spite of that! And seemed no more difficult, either to judge how easily she ballooned up.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 21:22:06
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Perhaps. But remember that Harry is still young and might have not yet learned how to do it with control. Dumbledore and Voldemort, on the other hand, do it quite well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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DND Wizard VS Harry Potter Wizard
