| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 10:36:01
|
Thought id start a new topic on the post from the discussion on Elminster (http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11) on Kahonens point on Halruaa easily defeating Thay.
What makes you sure on that point Kahonen? Im not arguing against it, i just wondered if there is any evidence or reason to your point?
I have just finished reading the Kings and Councelors trilogy and got my first glimpse of Halruaa, the only thing ive read on Thay is the Red Wizards Harpers novel.
So who WOULD actually win if war were declared?!?
Rad
|
|
|
ArcticKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 10:55:04
|
IMHO, its a case where Thay would be defeated because while Halruaan Wizards could work together, Thays Wizards would be scheming against each other , WHILE trying to battle the Halruaans.
Also, Halruaa IS magic, almost everyone there can use it, somewhere i read that the higher level mages of Halruaa are at par with the likes of Elminster and all the other Archmages of the world, while only a FEW Red Wizards are at that Status
Halruaa over Thay in 2 Rounds....
|
 |
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 11:00:14
|
They were my thoughts too, especially after reading the Councellors Trilogy. Halruaa WILL pull together to fight an common enemy. Thayan wizards are constantly backstabbing and in conflicts with each other and due to their alignment i doubt they could pull together strong enough to fight against Halruaa.
But as far as magical power and spell usage is concerned.....WHO is the more powerful? Thay or Halruaa?
Rad
|
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 13:13:03
|
I didn't actually say that Halruaa would easily beat Thay - I was just making the point that with everyone talking about whether Elminster has a place in the Realms, it appeared that other, equally powerful NPCs hadn't been forgotten 
On the subject of which nation is the strongest - an excellent question. I tend to agree with ArcticKnight, I can't imagine The Red Wizards stopping their in-fighting long enough to work together. Perhaps neither of the countries is the stronger, that could be why two countries which hate each other so much can survive so close together.
|
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 15:43:16
|
the red wizards would never let thay be controled by the halruaa
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 19:01:50
|
The Simbul is actually from Aglarond, not Halruaa.
Thinking more on this, Thay and Aglarond have been at war before. Thay backed down in 1381DR and sued for peace. They had become disheartened by constant defeat.
If you add the Witches and Barbarians from Rashemen into the equestion (who have always sided with aglarond against Thay) I doubt the Red Wizards could cope.
|
|
|
|
Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2002 : 04:22:29
|
Halruaa would definately win. If you read the Netheril Box set, halruaa was founded by Netheril Mages who went south. Netheril mages...Now there's some firepower! Also that is a very good box set, especially if you decide to play within Netheril before its downfall, mages at the time (Or Arcanists) had access to 12 level spells, of course this lead to their downfall and the limiting of the weave by mystra but still! (a lil off topic, but interesting nonetheless!:P)
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox? |
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2002 : 09:28:10
|
If were talking about whitches and barbarians I doubt there is a cindicuit more capable of hiring an army of mercinaries in the relmes as well as the red wizards, with all the conetions and vast wealth.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
|
|
|
Mask
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2002 : 12:25:01
|
I think Halruaa will win also. I know little about Halruaa and just a little bit more about Thay, but I think I know just enough to come to this conclusion. Fisrt of all, almost every country in the world hates Thay. If Halruaa was to go at war with the Thayvian Red Wizards I think they'll recieve quite a bit of support from other countries. Perhaps the Red Wizards could hold off an attack from Halruaa alone, but if other countries begin to meddle in these affairs they can never survive such a tremendous force.
If Halruaa would be alone in the attack, then I do not know who would win. |
Nothing is impossible! |
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2002 : 20:26:59
|
| Well most of the countries are more mercinary then loyal, I feel they would Ither have Arm or Baulders Gate on ther side as Arm would sourly take this opertunitey to wage war on Baulders Gate. The Armish Council could be easly swayed even If the Clowered wizards can't but they would follow the council of 6 |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
|
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 01:25:30
|
This thread is way off track. Unless Faerun has changed between 2nd and 3rd edition, Halruaa is best part of a thousand miles from Thay - you should be discussing Aglarond and Rashemen.
Thay has its collective a**e kicked by these two countries on more than one occasion (and bear in mind King-Tiax, the last time the Symbul had a large contingent of stunties allied to Aglarond).
As for Amn siding with Thay, not a lot of help when they are on the other side of the continent - I think Cormyr, Sembia et al might have someting to say about Amn's troops marching through their country as well. Unless, of course, you can come up with a reasonable explanation of why two Good aligned countries would allow a Neutral country to march its troops through their land on their way to help an Evil country. Personally, I can't see it. |
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 11:36:06
|
| The Clowered Wizards could travle at the greatist of haste when pressed and so can the Armish mercinaries, leaving the flaming fist in the dust. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
|
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 12:49:42
|
Now justify that statement. How exactly is moving "at the greatest of haste" going to get Amnish mercenaries through Cormyr and Sembia?
You seem to be forgetting that the country you're talking about, (Cormyr), when you talk about Amnish mercenaries travelling to assist Thay are the ones that saved the Realm's butt when the Tuigan Hordes moved west. At the point when Cormyr (under King Azoun) stopped the Kahan[1], Thay had already sent everything it had against the horde and had failed miserably[2].
If you are going to make sweeping statements, at least justify them with evidence of some sort.  .
[1] The Horde Campaign(FR12) : The Battles of the Golden Way, Flamerule 3-5, 1360 DR
2] The Horde Campaign(FR12) : The Battle of the Griffon Legion, Uktar 15, 1359 DR
|
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 15:13:30
|
| The Armish mercanaries & Clowered wizards Are more powerful then the Red wizards so when they combine Cormyer will fall, The word is changing, places that once were strong are crumbling The time of the Red is near. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
|
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2002 : 12:19:03
|
Tiax, there are a couple of details you fail to mention around Amn.
First of all in Amn wizards and sorcerers are frowned upon and barely tolerated if at all. Most wizards have to operate under another guise. The Cowled Wizards are a very secretive group that have to stay hidden because of Amnish government repercussions. Eventhough on of the wizards leaders is secretly on the Council ruling Amn.
And that same COuncil is almost no more. Amn is in ruins due to the humanoid army led by Ogre-mages and supported by Cyricists. This Army has taken control over a large part of Amn, including some major cities. There is almost no organized government in Amn at the moment at all. Let alone any mercenaries left over to fight Thay if they wanted.
As for Halruaa, why would they take on Thay. The Halruaans have been living in seclusion ever since the days of Netheril. Only to sail forth once in a while across the rest of Faerun. They seem to be quite happy living in their corner of the world. I wonder if they would realy care if the Red Wizards took over the rest of the continent. |
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2002 : 20:42:34
|
| What makes you think Halurra is secretive because it is weak, don't get me wrong I am a great fan of the Red Wizards, but one should never underestimate your enemy, the Halurran mages are\were no small fighting force, way up every Seniero and prepare for the worst, I.E. the Halurrans gather an army of every soildour in Faerun, when you are capable of handling that situation, then you are ready to fight. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
|
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 09:23:30
|
I never said Halruaa is secretive, just they appear reclusive and seem to have a isolationism policy. And you are right to never underestimate ones enemies. Halruaa, with its almost natural affinity with magic, boosts a lot of magical power and is a tough opponent to deal with if ever it shoul come to blows. Yet they way Halruaa is profiling itself on the Torillian international political landscape, is one of: "We'll mind our own business, you mind your own; don't bother us, we won't bother you."
To come back to the initial hypothetical question: Would Halruaa win if ever it came to blows with the Red Wizards?
Who knows, power alone is not the deciding factor in a war. There are much more complicating factors that decide an outcome in conflicts. The same anology was true for the US versus the Sovjet Union. Both were without powerful, yet who would win the war has never been sure.
The only sure thing about a war is that there are only losers. The only war ever won, is a war that is avoided. |
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 14:01:12
|
| The Red wizards use Necromancy as a main offencive, I belive they also use conjouring as well. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
|
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 14:11:22
|
| Actually the Red Wizards use all schools of magic. They are mainly a Magocracy made up of specialist wizards. Because of the penchant of the Red Wizards to use undead in their army and the fact that Zzass Tam is the most (in)famous of the Red Wizards, and he happens to be a Necromancer, that people tend to think all red's are Necromancers. |
|
|
|
king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 20:25:07
|
| I don't think they all are, just a large majoritey. My favorite type is an Invoker, How bout you. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 06:30:51
|
***casts Resurrection spell***
8 years...Wow...
Okay, so the Spellplague obviously made apparent who the victor is: Halruaa had long been wiped out.
But let's make another pretense: let's pretend that the SP never happened and Halruaa is still standing with all its might and all the zulkirs are still alive. Should Thay and Halruaa wage war against each other (for whatever viable reason), who would win?
At first I couldn't decide to whom I am more partial.... I like the Red Wizards, but I have been partial to the Netherese long before I grew to like other races in the Realms. So my vote goes to the Neths.
It had already been proven (in the HL trilogy) that the Red Wizards, most importantly the Zulkirs, could indeed coordinate all their efforts despite their personal animosity to each other if something huge threatens their thrones. And such only spells catastrophe. In The Simbul's Gift, the Simbul once mentioned (something along this line) that Faerun will face one of its greatest crises so far if the self-serving zulkirs work as one. So should the Halruaans tremble on their feet if they face Thay led by the 'united' zulkirs? As an initial response, maybe. But the number of their archmages far outnumber the zulkirs; and almost all of them, from serving made to king, practice the Art.
I believe divination will also play a very important part in this 'hypothetical' war, like in Undead. So if I am mistaken that he is more powerful than Yaphyll, King Zalathorn would already know the outcome and should he find anything that in one way or another crushes or even delays their victory (they can't fight forever, you know, so a swift win is paramount), I think he'd be able to fix it. Of course with the Zulkir of Abjuration and her minions' meddling, divining the Red Wizards' every action would prove quite a challenge. But he has abjurers at his command as well, so he'd manage.
Mercenaries are also a factor. But I think both nations are equally rich. So they could hire mercenaries in equal number.
quote:
Originally posted by king-tiax
The Red wizards use Necromancy as a main offensive, I believe they also use conjuring as well.
Halruaans practice all schools of magic, too. So magic specialization provides no edge to either nation. They're sort of equal in that regard.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 13:00:07
|
| I agree with you, dennis. I guess King Zalathorm could outsmart even Yaphyll. And the sheer number of Art-practicing Halruaans would make a war against them difficult. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 14:54:21
|
| I'd bet on Thay... |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 14:57:54
|
I'd not seen this one before! 
Dennis mentions that Thay could unite if faced by a serious threat... Halruaa would never pose that threat. Halruaa is thousands of miles away and is happy to be left alone.
So any war between the two would have to be initiated by Thay, which means the attackers would be far less than unified. And this non-cohesive force would be attacking one of the few nations on Toril that used more magic than them. And as pointed out, not only is Zalathorm a powerful diviner, he's not the only one.
Thay's only advantage might be their use of undead, but necromancers are not unknown in Halruaa, and Mystra's church is pretty popular, too -- so her clerics would blunt that advantage.
In short... I don't see any way Thay could succeed in such a conflict. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 15:38:28
|
Ed and THO actually covered this earlier in the year, with the verdict being Halruaa, hands down. Check his scroll on page 51 for the first off-hand mention, my follow-up, and THO's quick summary. A full answer hasn't come yet, unfortunately. Or at least if it has, I managed to miss it.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13186&whichpage=51 |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 00:09:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I'd not seen this one before!
I searched from the last page backwards. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
Dennis mentions that Thay could unite if faced by a serious threat... Halruaa would never pose that threat. Halruaa is thousands of miles away and is happy to be left alone.
So any war between the two would have to be initiated by Thay, which means the attackers would be far less than unified.
As the OP's question is hypothetical, I assume anything is possible. Besides, in fantasy, almost anything is possible, even the seemingly absurd ideas. Heh, upon first learning about it, the zulkirs were even skeptical, thinking it to be too impossible, that Szass Tam had enough power to resurrect the Dread Rings, let alone activate them all and bring about his desired result. Of course we learned towards the end that such impossibility was untrue.
My guesses as to the reason Halruaa would initiate a war against Thay are just that guesses. My most viable one, I think, is this:
King Zalathorn, together with a circle of the nation's most powerful diviners, made it an annual routine to divine the most terrible inside or outside threat to Halruaa. In one of their rituals at the cost of the lives of two in the circle they learned of Szass Tam's plan to destroy Toril, ascend to godhood, and remake the world. Also, they found out that Thay's neighbors and Faerun's most powerful realms Rashemen, Aglarond, Waterdeep, Cormyr, and even Shade and Sembia responded to the threat too late.
Knowing that the zulkirs would never approve of Tam's selfish scheme, he dispatched agents to inform them of the lich's plan. Szass Tam, though surprised that Halruaa managed to take a glimpse of his grand ambition, took the 'rumor' casually, telling his fellow zulkirs, Why would I help build Thay into the unshakable power it is today, only to destroy it in the end? Some or maybe all of you think of me as mad, but I am not that mad. I value Thay like all of you do. The other zulkirs, though not so convinced by the Zulkir of Necromancy, but thinking that to raise the Dread Rings was sheer madness, believed the king's news to be a scheme to bring further division among the zulkirs, and consequently topple Thay's government.
Accepting the futility of trying to convince Thay's prime rulers, he then personally sought and tried to convince the leaders of the aforementioned nations, and asked them to perform their own divination to see for themselves. But strangely, none of them saw what he had seen. Upon third attempt, they were convinced that the king's divination simply went awry, or that the zulkirs simply wanted him to see what he had for reasons only the zulkirs knew.
King Zalathorn, for the first time, doubted himself, thinking that the ritual might have really gone ballistic. So he summoned another circle of diviners and this time, with a score of abjurer archmages to protect them. The result was the same Tam's ascension except that no lives were lost in the casting, thanks to the abjurers.
Convinced, he DECLARED war against Thay. Considering they're thousands of miles away from their enemy, he commanded his subjects to raise huge teleportation circles that would shift a thousand people per activation, and determine strategic locations where they could teleport to without inviting the zulkirs' swift retaliation.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
Thay's only advantage might be their use of undead, but necromancers are not unknown in Halruaa...
The Halruaans will be wise enough to stage their assault during the day, and accomplish a swift victory that is, before sundown.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 25 Oct 2010 01:10:14 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 01:12:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Thay's only advantage might be their use of undead, but necromancers are not unknown in Halruaa, ...
Ah, yes. Random. 
I assume your vote goes to Thay. I'd like to hear why... |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 04:08:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Thay's only advantage might be their use of undead, but necromancers are not unknown in Halruaa, ...
Ah, yes. Random.
I assume your vote goes to Thay. I'd like to hear why...
Actually, I'm not sure who I'd vote for. I'd have to think on this a little more.
My above post was mainly just a jest about the unusual Halruaan necromancer named Random in FR16 The Shining South. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 16:48:15
|
Personally, Halruaa isn't a state perpetually at war...so if they simply launched into war against Thay, they would suffer horrible casualties.
With a little planning though, and coordination with the Witches of Rashemen, Thay would be doomed.
Regarding the coming of the Spell-Plague, I've an answer to that one regarding Halruaa: Halruaa took a chapter from the Illusionists that long ago left. They saw the SP coming, and now their nation has TRUE isolation as they are cloaked not only in illusions, but powerful magics that function much like portal magic all along its borders...essentially sending anyone attempting to enter Halruaa into a Demi-Plane the Halruaans had accessed prior to the plague.
Now they sit pretty in their nearly impregnable stronghold nation.
Would they be strong enough to do this? Sure, didn't the illusionists of Nimbral essentially ward an entire kingdom? It has been done...and so can be done. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 21:17:45
|
With what Ed had to say about this very issue I cant see how anyone could think Thay would have a chance!
snip from Ed's scroll...."Yes, Ed definitely thinks Halruaa would win (I know this from discussions about where Thay DIDN'T DARE put trade enclaves). Yes, they're numerically inferior to Thay, but (from my peeks at Ed's private, never-published notes) the Halruaans have far more magic (spells and accomplished practitioners of the Art who are used to experimenting rather than "casting under orders"), far more magic items, and far more Netherese battle-magic (large-scale spellwebs and flying constructs and "blast-globes" [I don't know precisely what Ed meantr by blast-globes, but that's what he had written down in what I did see]) long hidden away and "secured" by family patriarchs and matriarchs), that they could hurl at any serious threat to Halruaa.
In short, once Halruaa was alert, the Thayans wouldn't know what hit them. "
|
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Thay versus Halruaa
