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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
 Posted - 10 May 2011 : 10:09:37
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Okay. so we know that homo- or bisexual relationships aren't a big deal in the Realms. Overall there's no stigma for such a thing. But what about marriage?
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Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 12:29:31
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 12:43:56
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There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 12:50:33
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| Um... what? Could you elaborate? |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 14:56:14
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 14:59:34
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| If you think it's something you want to explore in your game, then give it a try and let us know how it turns out... |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 15:27:51
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People, if you don't have anything worthwile to post, then DON'T post. Posts containing only one emoticon are spam.  |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 15:27:55
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I posted this: because of the sig.
I figure it's a troll scroll that will get sealed in the near future... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 15:33:15
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| I'd have to say that it would depend on how different deities feel about marriage, if it was a marriage that was overseen by clergy. Otherwise, I'd say it might change from settlement to settlement. So, really, there's no specific answer. Overall though, I really don't see a reason why there would be a stigma towards two, or more, beings wanting to be married. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4437 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 16:00:26
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Well, if one were to conclude that this....."so we know that homo- or bisexual relationships aren't a big deal in the Realms" were true, then marrage would be taken as the same. I rather doubt people in the Realms marry for work benefits and tax breaks but for love, furthering politiacal gains, nobility, or any other reason why people of the medieval time-frame would be married.
I can't think of any churches/organizations that would be opposed to this sort of union (possibly Lathander or Chauntea, as such a union would produce no offspring) but I also don't think churches are actually required to seal any sort of "marrage" between two individuals on Faerūn. I'd more or less see it being a ceremony between the two people's family and friends with possibly someone there to bind them. This could be a close family friend, a special person picked out by their two families, a city official, or clergyman.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 16:01:05
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There isn't the same stigma against various sexualities in the Realms as in our world. So yeah, I think it's totally conceivable.
You run into some issues with nobles wanting to get married, since marriage in those cases is mostly if not entirely about heredity. Generally speaking, I would expected that a same-sex inclined noble will have a committed lover on the side but marry a person of the opposite sex in order to carry on the family name as "duty demands." (And this situation may or may not be comfortable for all involved, depending on those individuals.)
Non-nobles can generally marry whomever they want, subject to the particular mores of their town/region.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 16:32:09
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Even if gay marriage is generally not a "problem," I don't think we'll ever see it in FR novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31744 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 17:15:57
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quote:
Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat
Okay. so we know that homo- or bisexual relationships aren't a big deal in the Realms. Overall there's no stigma for such a thing. But what about marriage?
I'd say ping Ed for his further take on the matter [since I recall the Great Bearded One touching on this subject, briefly, in years past]. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 May 2011 17:17:29 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 18:39:17
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-Marriage isn't too big of a deal in plenty of Human societies to begin with. The only ones that I really see as caring about marriage all that much are noble families, where lineages need to be properly documented, validated, authenticated, and all of that stuff. Among such families, where the name and family needs to be passed down through blood, I would imagine that homosexuality would be frowned on- especially among male elders, who are the ones who would be doing the "passing on the name". Thus, since it'd be frowned on, I'd imagine then that gay marriage would not be something too many would be keen on. Other groups where heredity isn't much of a big deal, if at all, I'd imagine that it's no big thing. Clerics of Sune want to promulgate love, and if it's between two men or two women, whatever.
-Just my musings on it, though.
Edit: Whoops, preempted by Erik de Bie. Oh well, at least I'm in good company. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 May 2011 18:41:15 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 03:16:45
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Frankly, what I don't like is the supposition that gay marriage is okay but it can't be seen in print. NO FR NOVELS WILL HAVE IT. It's like saying,"It's okay, BUT it's NOT!" |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 04:38:41
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I doubt that. I suppose their decision has a lot to do with their "target audience." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 05:14:45
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Perhaps, Alystra, they're waiting for all the States to legalize gay marriage---so as to have a little assurance that indeed their readers are "mature" enough?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 05:33:49
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Hah! At least there, there is a possibility. In the Philippines, even if we elect a "closeted" President who "comes out" during his second year of service, he'll never be able to make a move to have it legalized. The Catholic Church here has as much power as the government, and in some aspect, more. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 05:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Frankly, what I don't like is the supposition that gay marriage is okay but it can't be seen in print. NO FR NOVELS WILL HAVE IT. It's like saying,"It's okay, BUT it's NOT!"
-At the end of the day, it's a business, and they're going to market things to as large an audience as possible. Heterosexual relations, implications, all that stuff, that's targeting the largest audience. Homosexual and/or bisexual relations, implications, all that stuff, at best, it'd be targeting a relative minority group, and at worst, it'd be putting off the people who, for whatever reason, don't even want to think about that kind of stuff in the Forgotten Realms, and want nothing to do with it. All about the bucks. Suffice to say, though, they're just following the crowd (it's not like there are loads and loads of mainstream fantasy/sci-fi books that feature such things to begin with), and seemingly have no interest in rocking the boat. The TSR Code of Ethics prevented a lot of stuff that we see in more modern (2000+) Forgotten Realms books, so maybe in the future, just like some of those restrictions have been loosened, maybe to will things related to this issue.
-In my opinion, though, I think that D&D in general has a bad enough reputation among the kind of people, generally speaking, that would be against featuring such characters/relationships to begin with that they wouldn't be going out and purchasing D&D stuff to begin with, but, that's me spitting in the wind without anything to really back it up. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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jaelin910
Acolyte
Australia
18 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 06:06:35
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| depending on what their target audience actually is,that maturity might be one reason to hold some things back (like the nudity/"sexual interactions" discussed in another thread) |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 07:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt that. I suppose their decision has a lot to do with their "target audience."
That would be 15 year old boys... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 18:13:25
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| -I don't know if "target audience" is the best phrase, as much as "main audience". I don't think that they specifically target certain ages/groups as much as certain groups like their products. Though, with the boobiness of some past sourcebooks, maybe I'm wrong about trying to target specific ages/groups. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 19:28:28
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I think their target audience will be the 13-29 year old male. I would guess that since current stats have the population of the U.S. having only 5% homosexuals, they don't see the profit in showing it openly in their books.
Unfortunately, sometimes same-sex relationships do have the adverse effect of putting off some of those target audiences, at least male-male (as we've seen enough hints at lesbianism in Drow novels, etc). And the adverse effect may cause them to lose money.
I think it's a pure business decision, unfortunately.
As to what Alystra said earlier, I don't think Texas will ever accept same-sex marriages, so I tend to agree with it being longer than one thinks to being legal. |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 00:39:25
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I can't think of any weddings in Forgotten Realms novels to begin with, or very much sexuality. It seemed to me that lesbianism was hinted at in drow novels it was an extension of their being decadent, not exactly the sort of representation lesbians would choose to have themselves. : /
I can think of a lot of media that contain gay characters where most of the consumers aren't themselves homosexual like True Blood, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But even then the gay characters are friends of the main characters, and they aren't trying to sell those things to children. I also think all the media I can think of with gay characters are more aimed at female audiences (Sex and the City, Glee, etc. ) I guess Dumbledore in harry potter was apparently gay, but it was only hinted at in the most indirect way. Even in Star Trek, that had the first interracial kiss, to have a gay kiss they had to make a weird convoluted story about Dax + whoever that other woman was. Although the shows creator wanted it to have gay characters, people who took it over didn't want to be controversial. That reminds me of Ed Greenwood + the Forgotten realms...
Laws regarding Same Sex Marriages don't necessarily have to be approved by public opinion if they're formed based on Constitutions. The purpose of a Constitution is to protect people from the tyranny of the majority, isn't it? I live in the province of Alberta in Canada where people are very conservative (apparently, i've only ever lived here so I don't know the difference) But we still have gay marriage because it was brought about by the Federal Government based on our Bill of Rights. South Africa has gay marriage and its not exactly a gay friendly place as far as i've heard. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31744 Posts |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 06:15:30
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| to be honest, here we fight about something as simple as marriage, whereas in the realms the gods could not care less, only if the people getting married by whatever cleric or priest worship said god or goddess. A fighter,bane worshipper, could be as gay as a rainbow and bane couldnt care less, only if that fighter promoted and further the ideology and plans of the lord of darkness. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 06:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I can't think of any weddings in Forgotten Realms novels to begin with, or very much sexuality. It seemed to me that lesbianism was hinted at in drow novels it was an extension of their being decadent, not exactly the sort of representation lesbians would choose to have themselves. : /
-As was mentioned, it is a device that is much more important to nobility, for ensuring the transmission of proper lineage and such. Among the broader population of Faerūn, spanning across multiple races, the emphasis on marriage that Western society traditionally has had, developed by the Abrahamic religions with liberal doses of Manichaeism, is absent, meaning that the importance of the institution of marriage, as opposed to just loving each other and being together and doing all that stuff, doesn't particularly exist. Monogamy, and loving and bonding with one specific person certainly exists- and I would say is the norm, projecting our Human emotions and sensitivities on the Humans of Faerūn- but it's not particularly institutionalized. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 01:07:06
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WotC should listen more to Jessie's Price Tag. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gay marriage?
Topic Locked
