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Lashaeral
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 05:24:26
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I've looked at a variety of books trying to find their entry, cant find it in either of the two new FRbooks
Am I wrong, or does their description NOT MATCH the Pre sundering dark elves, of the 2nd edition cormanthor book.
brown skin, and black hair... just is uck.
Any ideas why they'd do it like that?
Is it to make it markedly different from drow in appearence?
or to make them look more"negro" to make the game more accessible to other ethnicitys.
Im tryingto be value neutral, but leaving my feelings on the death of eilistraee aside, I think this is ... of questionable taste.
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 05:40:34
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| I may be wrong, but I think dark elves already had brown skin and black hair before Sundering, therefore they were called so. I did not read the novel, but I heard drow turned back to Pre Sundering version of dark elves. Am I wrong? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Lashaeral
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 06:09:55
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cormanthor describes them as elveswith "dusky skin" and Pale hair"
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 06:31:20
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| Guess I am wrong then. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 10:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
I may be wrong, but I think dark elves already had brown skin and black hair before Sundering, therefore they were called so. I did not read the novel, but I heard drow turned back to Pre Sundering version of dark elves. Am I wrong?
I think you are right and they were as looking so described in... Races of Faerun? Lost Empires of Faerun...? I don't remember. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 12:09:02
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while Im not the fore-runner on Drow lore, not all 4e Drow look like this or were redeemed by Elistraee's death.
But just because they're described as such doesnt mean they have to be that way in your campaigns. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 15:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
while Im not the fore-runner on Drow lore, not all 4e Drow look like this or were redeemed by Elistraee's death.
But just because they're described as such doesnt mean they have to be that way in your campaigns.
He is not talking about Drow. He is talking about Dark Elves. Since The lady's death, they have splintered into sub-races. Drow are no longer called "Dark elves", and Dark Elves are no longer associated with Drow.
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 15:50:48
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All rather silly really since if they'd bothered to read Evermeet: Island of the Elves, the designers would have realised that Dark Elves had always had dusky, black skin and silver blonde/white hair.....and were a distinct group from green elves...sigh...continuity errors like this really irk me....... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Edited by - Snowblood on 25 Apr 2011 15:52:09 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 17:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
All rather silly really since if they'd bothered to read Evermeet: Island of the Elves, the designers would have realised that Dark Elves had always had dusky, black skin and silver blonde/white hair.....and were a distinct group from green elves...sigh...continuity errors like this really irk me.......
Ooh so that's where I read this description. And in FRCS! And yes, the portrayal as brown skinned irks me too.
Cormanthor (dusky skin and pale hair) matches this one too.
And then 4e came and they did a retcon. :( |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 17:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Ooh so that's where I read this description. And in FRCS! And yes, the portrayal as brown skinned irks me too.
Cormanthor (dusky skin and pale hair) matches this one too.
And then 4e came and they did a retcon. :(
Not to be nit-picky but I don't recall them ever mentioning dark elves redeemed appearance in the two source books for the Forgotten Realms. Possibly in a novel which talks about their looks but the blame should probably fall there (editor or writer, your choice) and not a total miscommunication about the edition set therein.
Also, could just be a typo or someone not doing their homework so does it really matter that much? |
Edited by - Diffan on 25 Apr 2011 17:58:57 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lashaeral
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 18:17:56
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Lisa Smedman not do her homework?!shocking
"Eilistraee has chosen, go now and take her with you. But know that the day your hand is raised against her, will be the lastday of your life.This I swear, by all the tree's of Arvandor"
Vhauren eons latter
"Screw Correlon! Im so cool I dont have to listen to him!"
Demihuman deitys EXPlicitlY Says that sheverish has "mitaged his hatred of eilistraee, and the good drow that serve her and does not kill them out of hand, but does still dislike them thoroughly.
in Ascendency of the last
It Explicitly mentions that Sheverish wants to commit GENOCIDE against the Drow people, INCLUDING Eilistraees followers... a blatant retcon, all so Quan... cant spell it, could have some internal monlague about how the Seldarine are hypocrites.
And why doesnt Eilistraee have some kind of spell Stone skin, or antimagic field, or such active? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 18:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashaeral
Am I wrong, or does their description NOT MATCH the Pre sundering dark elves, of the 2nd edition cormanthor book.
brown skin, and black hair... just is uck.
Any ideas why they'd do it like that?
Is it to make it markedly different from drow in appearence?
-It matches. The only specific differences are hair color, which is easily enough explained away.
quote:
Originally posted by Lashaeral
or to make them look more"negro" to make the game more accessible to other ethnicitys.
-If anything, they appear Mediterranean.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
and were a distinct group from green elves...sigh...continuity errors like this really irk me.......
-This was retconned in TGHotR. From then on in, Dark Elves in Faerūn were a specific "family", if you will, of Green Elves. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 Apr 2011 18:43:57 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 02:10:52
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Lashaeral - Correlon making a threat doesn't mean he could carry it out. . . ? Obviously many deities want to kill each other. Why does that quote mean Lisa Smedman didn't do her homework? I doubt Vhaeraun ever obeyed Correlon or Lolth to any great extent :S
Q'Arlynd also doesn't necessarily know the truth of deific politics. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 02:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashaeral
Lisa Smedman not do her homework?!shocking
We really don't need that type of commentary here at Candlekeep, Lashaeral.
Try to be a little more courteous in the future, eh?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 03:06:23
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| On the one hand, I agree with Sage- we don't know what sort of research she did or didn't do. We also know that some lore changed between editions, so it's possible she was going by newer lore. That said, I DO wonder why that bit wasn't taken into account. I wonder if that's why Eilistraee gave him the smack-down so easily? Could she have had daddy's help "off-stage"? We're never really shown the battle- just the result.... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 07:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Retcons are the bane of good lore..... Ask anyone who reads comics.
-Yup. If you want to be "technical", the case has been made that it's not a retcon, since nothing ever implicitly stated that Dark Elves were their own specific Elven subrace...but, that's mostly bunk. Enough had been alluded to and implied to consider them their own specific Elven subrace in all kinds of 1e, 2e, and 3e sourcebooks and 1e-era, 2e-era, and 3e-era novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
On the one hand, I agree with Sage- we don't know what sort of research she did or didn't do. We also know that some lore changed between editions, so it's possible she was going by newer lore. That said, I DO wonder why that bit wasn't taken into account.
-If you're talking about the hair color part here (not sure), I really don't understand why so many people (not you specifically) have fixated on this issue. Of all of the inconsistencies or lore gaffes contained in that series, and people get up in arms over Dark Elves with white hair, instead of black or brown? I mean, really? It's like politics, where politicians nit-pick everything their political opponents do, and don't take time to pick-and-choose their battles. Very quickly, the nit-picking every little minor thing gets old (even if it's justified). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 07:39:35
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The only ugly part in all this is when people consider that Dark elves are truly special subrace (which I believe is true) designers pop up with new guide and say "Sorry folks, they are actually green elves."
This fact breaks the whole theory behind whole subrace turned in drow when we remember Eilistraee, whose worshipers turned drow, but still good. It means that Sundering was not controlled. The new changes do not explain why Sundering turned Dark elves and part of Green elves as they say instead of turning in drow ALL green elves. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Edited by - Sill Alias on 26 Apr 2011 07:42:06 |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 14:44:36
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The Ilythiiri couldn't have been all one family...what about the Olrythii the rulers of Miyeritar ..dark elves with connections to the Vyshaan clan......so how could they possibly be Green Elves...and related to the Ilythiiri????? Please explain this to me??? |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Edited by - Snowblood on 26 Apr 2011 14:45:17 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 18:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
The only ugly part in all this is when people consider that Dark elves are truly special subrace (which I believe is true) designers pop up with new guide and say "Sorry folks, they are actually green elves."
-As was said, nothing ever said that they were, technically- no specific stats, only anecdotal mentions- so it's their prerogative to do so since you'd never find actual stats for Dark Elves, actual, contemporary Dark Elves, and so on.
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
This fact breaks the whole theory behind whole subrace turned in drow when we remember Eilistraee, whose worshipers turned drow, but still good. It means that Sundering was not controlled. The new changes do not explain why Sundering turned Dark elves and part of Green elves as they say instead of turning in drow ALL green elves.
-Well, we know that the Descent of the Drow was never a "controlled", since, like you said, it affected good Dark Elves and bad Dark Elves, and everyone in-between, and Ilythiiri Dark Elves and Miyeritaari Dark Elves, and everyone in-between. Just like people of all races are Human, so too can this be explained, in-game. If you look at genetics, a White male has different features than a Black male, who has different features than an Eskimo, and so on and so forth. In "game theory", if you want to accept that they're, more or less, a subspecies within the Green Elven family, you can say that the specific features that Dark Elves had, that other Wood Elves didn't, were targeted, and thus, the reason why only they transformed.
-After a while, though, it starts getting easier and easier for the imagination to be stretched.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
The Ilythiiri couldn't have been all one family...what about the Olrythii the rulers of Miyeritar ..dark elves with connections to the Vyshaan clan......so how could they possibly be Green Elves...and related to the Ilythiiri????? Please explain this to me???
-Those "familial relations" don't preclude the new lore, that the Dark Elves who came to Realmspace in -27,000 were a subset of the greater Green/Wood Elven migration. I don't accept that new lore, since it does go against the grain, so to speak, in saying that Dark Elves were never their own distinct subrace, and since Elves of Faerūn was started before TGHotR came out and amended this information, but it doesn't particularly screw other established lore up. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 Apr 2011 19:06:32 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 23:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Retcons are the bane of good lore..... Ask anyone who reads comics.
There's more than one retcon - in comics and in other literature- that's been a change for the better. Just because it was written first doesn't mean it was a better idea. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 23:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's more than one retcon - in comics and in other literature- that's been a change for the better. Just because it was written first doesn't mean it was a better idea.
Yes, though it could easily been argued that many a retcon in the Realms dating from the latter half of 3.x (or even from the beginning of 3e many would argue) through 4e have not necessarily been well thought out or well explained. I personally do not mind most retcons if there is good reason for them and if they are well explained. Changing the skin and hair tone of dark elves does not strike me as neither needed, nor well explained. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 00:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I personally do not mind most retcons if there is good reason for them and if they are well explained.
There's my stance. To me, the believability of a world depends in large part upon its continuity, and changing things without explanation (or with a poor explanation) damages that believabilty. If you break continuity, you break believability. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 01:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Retcons are the bane of good lore..... Ask anyone who reads comics.
There's more than one retcon - in comics and in other literature- that's been a change for the better. Just because it was written first doesn't mean it was a better idea.
I think Alystra was underlining the fact that comic-books are notorious for retcons, which have, almost, become yearly events for some of the more popular books. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 01:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I personally do not mind most retcons if there is good reason for them and if they are well explained.
There's my stance. To me, the believability of a world depends in large part upon its continuity, and changing things without explanation (or with a poor explanation) damages that believabilty. If you break continuity, you break believability.
Agreed.
I don't mind the occasional retcon, especially if those responsible for a particular continuity change, are geared toward addressing some absent or oft-neglected part of the setting's lore, and that addressing reaffirms -- rather than detracts -- from the original material.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 01:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's more than one retcon - in comics and in other literature- that's been a change for the better. Just because it was written first doesn't mean it was a better idea.
Yes, though it could easily been argued that many a retcon in the Realms dating from the latter half of 3.x (or even from the beginning of 3e many would argue) through 4e have not necessarily been well thought out or well explained. I personally do not mind most retcons if there is good reason for them and if they are well explained. Changing the skin and hair tone of dark elves does not strike me as neither needed, nor well explained.
Their skin color was not changed. Hair color, easily explained away as a small sample size. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 03:21:08
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| The lore in the Grand History which firmly ties the pre-descent dark elves to the family of green elves was written by me. Those unhappy with that nugget of lore should direct their disapproval my direction and nowhere else. This has nothing to do with 4th-Edition, which I wasnt even aware of as I was working on the Grand History. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 04:03:24
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| I'm to tired of it to point fingers and gripe and compain..... not worth the air and or energy......or what I ate for dinner |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 04:47:17
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| So any other questions concerning the Dark Elves in 1479 DR? |
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4th edition Dark elves questions?
