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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 04:20:13
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Now, before I disappear again to return to working on my Thayan materials, which I’m having to completely re-write from scratch, do to one of life’s little complications, I have the following query: not knowing all of the history of the Realms, did they ever officially bring the floating city of Selûnnara back from which where it lies? In other words, did the floating city of Selûnnara returns to Faerûn to wage war against
the Shadovar of Thultanthar?
I have my reasons for asking, which I shall, if you’ll excuse me, not share at the moment.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 04:35:49
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No, they didn't, and for good reasons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 21:53:57
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| Sadly, they did not return it, and so far as I know, no reason was ever given. I think it's another of the great missed opportunities of the 3E era. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 22:20:50
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| No they didn't. They should have and maybe they still will. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 04:01:14
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No, I think thier is a very vague hint that its still in the Gates of the Moon in Brimstone Angels: Lesser Evils.
Its not mentioned directly though. Thier is a mention of Shade being the only Netheril City to return from another plane, the implication being that Selunarra being the only other Netheril City to flee to another plane, that it remains there still, even after the merger between The Gates of the Moon and Brightwater Planes.
To be fair if your city was located in a gorgeous paradise of an afterlife, filled with pleasures that boogled the mind, near another city like Brightwater, would you go back to Faerun?
Now AO because of the Sundering may decide that a City of more or less mortals has no place in the Afterlife and send it back. We don't know yet.
Hopefully we find out. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 04:04:24
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jjuote]Originally posted by Dennis
No, they didn't, and for good reasons.
[/quote]
What was the good reason? I mean beyond the fact that there all outsiders now. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 05:50:54
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Other Netherese cities could have escaped. Its all up to the imagination (and how far you want to push something that far fetched)
I think he means he doesn't like there be powerful forces for good because it somehow unbalances the world (in his eyes). Yet there are endless evils out there, why does it matter if there is a city of Aasimar? Why not complain about the city of demon worshiping drow, etc. ? People often seem to think if there are good beings in the world there is nothing for PCs to do. Which makes no sense. A world is a huge place. Also the realms should be a logical working world like any other fantasy setting not a world that exists solely for gameplay. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 10 Apr 2013 05:59:43 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 12:51:23
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Actually I think its because I've heard that people complain that Selunarra is some kind of unneeded symatry to Shade.
Personally I think Opus is interesting on its own. Both areas have had thousands of years and countless events seperate from Ancient Netheril influencing thier evolution. They've also been in very different yet fantasical locations.
The main language for Selunarra probably isn't even Netheril, its probably Celestial with a spattering of Netheril words, possibly including swear words.
And the average citizen isn't that much more powerful then a human, they can summon light and have minor resistance to certain damage types like acid. They're on average slightly smarter and more charming
The average Selunnarra is just a peasant or merchant.
I hope they bring back Selunnarra for 5e because I think on of the goals into bring back the feeling of hope for the Realms and this would be a great start.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 12:59:29
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| I, personally, want Selûnarra back because I think that the interplay between them and Shade would make both groups more interesting. I also think that the Shades are way too prominent and that Selûnarra would diminish the prominence of Shade while making it more useful. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 14:54:05
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| I agree on the fact that they were only invented for symmetry thing. I personally would rather they not "come back" to the realms. Now, if they have some other involvement for whatever reasons (maybe some of them are seeking some artifact to further their goals where they are), that might be more easy to stomach. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 19:25:02
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Agreed Wooly.
I also think Selunnarra is interesting in its own right. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 20:07:19
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Agreed Wooly.
I also think Selunnarra is interesting in its own right. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 11:31:16
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But in the Netheril Box set it mentions Opus is believed to have been taken to Selune's realm, that was long before they decided Shade would return wasn't it? (I don't have this box set ... I read it in my friend's collection so I can't go look back right now)
Opus wouldn't necessarily be some disgustingly good place, either. If the Gates of the Moon are in Ysgard that plane is Chaotic Neutral/Chaotic Good and they would have had to defend themselves from other inhabitants, possibly. People in the city wouldn't all be good, either. (Just like not all residents of Shade and certainly not their empire are necessarily evil)
I just ran a campaign involving Opus so I definitely think it should return = P Although in the campaign Opus/Selunnara became lost in another world during the Spellplague with all the Outsiders there at the time becoming Deva. The players stumbled through a portal to the city searching for Netherese things to help them fight Shade. Selunnara was very transformed from what it would have been like had it come from the Gates of the Moon to Faerun rather than Gates of the Moon to another Material Plane (with no advanced civilizations - only things like bullywugs, aaracockra, etc.) then back to Faerun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 12:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
But in the Netheril Box set it mentions Opus is believed to have been taken to Selune's realm, that was long before they decided Shade would return wasn't it? (I don't have this box set ... I read it in my friend's collection so I can't go look back right now)
The fact that Opus didn't fall was mentioned in the Netheril boxed set, yes. I think that, like Shade, this was a throwaway idea that someone decided to run with. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 19:08:04
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If Selunnara returned I don't think they'd be as powerful as Shade. Shade is established now (or whenever you'd set it, they survived a very hostile climate and are authoritarian lily militiristic. But Opus would make them less powerful. Perhaps taking control of a region of Netheril. They'd certainly get support from Cormyr, the Silver Marches and any Netherese or be dine rebels. I always figured many shadovar would not buy into Shade's plan and be dissidents.
In my own campaign I made an NPC who travelled with the party who was a cleric of Shar who became a Dark Moon Heretic who wanted her people to be less evil. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 21:38:40
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| Shade has an empire, Opus is one city, although it may have a larger population. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 22:12:59
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| Opus being just one city, and the fact that they've not been actively seeking their return, is part of what formed my speculations on how they'd act if they did return. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 03:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Shade has an empire, Opus is one city, although it may have a larger population.
Depending on which way you wish to take it... Opus also [kind of] has the backing of the aasimar. It would be interesting to see how that impacts upon any Shade vs. Opus scenario. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 03:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Opus being just one city, and the fact that they've not been actively seeking their return, is part of what formed my speculations on how they'd act if they did return.
The thing is both Shade and Opus are Massive Cities. Most portals are built for people or just carts at the largest.
Even Shade needed special circumstances and a power boost to get it back to the realms. The Eye of Selune is likely the only thing which could open a portal big enough for Opus, without something like the Karsestone acting as a power booster/power source. The only known ritual needs to be conducted in a temple in Netheril which is likely desecrated and destroyed due to Shar.
So you either need an elite adventurer force or devise a new ritual for a portal big enough in a safe location.
It might not be the don't want to come back, it's just they have a lot of hoops to jump through. Shade just lucked into the right circumstances. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 06:14:29
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| Why is it far fetched to have adventurers find the Eye of Selune? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 14:55:00
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| If where they're at is safe, why make their homeland leave it? I mean, I understand why the shades would want to get the hells out of the plane of shadow. If the people of Selunarra wanted to visit Toril they can.... its not like the living members of the city that remain have a strong tie to the realms anymore than I feel like I have a strong tie to modern day Europe (not saying I don't like Europe and wouldn't mind visiting, but I'm happy living in the southern US.... I do have a bias against living in the northern US... snow F'ing sucks, and the people that live where it snows must be dain bramaged). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 15:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No, they didn't, and for good reasons.
What was the good reason? I mean beyond the fact that there all outsiders now.
Being outsiders is one reason, but not quite the “good” one. Telamont himself is an outsider, but he lingers in Toril to fulfill his ultimate goal.
The good reasons are the following. One, the present frame of mind of the Selunnarans may no longer include “worldly” concerns. Two, Selune is an enemy of Shar. The latter may do everything in her power to prevent her sister’s pet city to return to Toril and possibly foil Shade’s plans (which are, by extension, also hers). Not that Selune can be easily stopped. But she may find the fight not worth it and instead just let the Netherese in Opus continue to perform their “heavenly” tasks (whatever those are). Three, Shade is already an established power in Toril. Should they return, the Selunnarans would most likely choose only between joining Shade or fighting them. The former is very improbable; but if they choose the latter, will it be worth it? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 17:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No, they didn't, and for good reasons.
What was the good reason? I mean beyond the fact that there all outsiders now.
Being outsiders is one reason, but not quite the “good” one. Telamont himself is an outsider, but he lingers in Toril to fulfill his ultimate goal.
The good reasons are the following. One, the present frame of mind of the Selunnarans may no longer include “worldly” concerns. Two, Selune is an enemy of Shar. The latter may do everything in her power to prevent her sister’s pet city to return to Toril and possibly foil Shade’s plans (which are, by extension, also hers). Not that Selune can be easily stopped. But she may find the fight not worth it and instead just let the Netherese in Opus continue to perform their “heavenly” tasks (whatever those are). Three, Shade is already an established power in Toril. Should they return, the Selunnarans would most likely choose only between joining Shade or fighting them. The former is very improbable; but if they choose the latter, will it be worth it?
To mirror Dennis' words here for the last sentence.... would it be worth it to bring the city back to Toril? Let's just assume here that Selune orders the Selunarrans to fight against Shade. Why do they need to do it by returning to the realms in force? Why couldn't they for instance play a sniping war from across the planes? It would be much more effective because they don't KNOW that the Selunarrans are involved in the game. They could also work against the Shades from behind the scenes by simply messing with their end goals... misinformation, surreptiously relaying information to third parties that WILL be affected by Shade, hiding the things the Shades are searching for, surgical strikes to disable magical keypoints in Shade's Empire, providing aid in the form of information, magic, or items to Selune's worshippers already on Toril (possibly without these Torilian worshippers even knowing the source of the aid), etc... All this could be worked by the upper echelon of Selunarra, meanwhile the day to day Selunarran may not know any of this is going on. Maybe the average Selunarran know that they're being requested to make more "wands of moonlight" or "potions of moonbeams" than usual, but they don't really know why and are just glad for the income and work in service of their goddess. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 18:03:12
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I think Selunnara intended to return and wants to return (maybe this was in Lost Empires of Faerun?) It may be Selune's will. They were only ever in the Gates of the Moon to save themselves from destruction. Perhaps they just have not had the capacity to return before.
They may still consider themselves Netherese and not want their ancient homeland being corrupted like that. Think of the real world people who long to return "home" generations later, or thousands of years later (Israel?) |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 13:49:05
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Its doubtful that most wish to return from paradise to a less pleasant mortal world. So I figure the only way they'll return is if they're forced or commanded too. That's not to say they don't care about thier old stomping grounds. Just that they don't see it as home. To them the Gates of the Moon are. Netheril is ancient history to them.
I mean its been thousands of years.
Oh and the only major cultural centers of Aasmir is Mulhorand and Unther both of which got exiled to Abier and neither of which have any particular interest in or connection to Selunarra.I guess its possible that when Mulhorand returns for 5e and if Selunarra returns they could form an alliance.
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Selûnnara?
