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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 04:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
The only ugly part in all this is when people consider that Dark elves are truly special subrace (which I believe is true) designers pop up with new guide and say "Sorry folks, they are actually green elves."
-As was said, nothing ever said that they were, technically- no specific stats, only anecdotal mentions- so it's their prerogative to do so since you'd never find actual stats for Dark Elves, actual, contemporary Dark Elves, and so on.
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
This fact breaks the whole theory behind whole subrace turned in drow when we remember Eilistraee, whose worshipers turned drow, but still good. It means that Sundering was not controlled. The new changes do not explain why Sundering turned Dark elves and part of Green elves as they say instead of turning in drow ALL green elves.
-Well, we know that the Descent of the Drow was never a "controlled", since, like you said, it affected good Dark Elves and bad Dark Elves, and everyone in-between, and Ilythiiri Dark Elves and Miyeritaari Dark Elves, and everyone in-between. Just like people of all races are Human, so too can this be explained, in-game. If you look at genetics, a White male has different features than a Black male, who has different features than an Eskimo, and so on and so forth. In "game theory", if you want to accept that they're, more or less, a subspecies within the Green Elven family, you can say that the specific features that Dark Elves had, that other Wood Elves didn't, were targeted, and thus, the reason why only they transformed.
-After a while, though, it starts getting easier and easier for the imagination to be stretched.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
The Ilythiiri couldn't have been all one family...what about the Olrythii the rulers of Miyeritar ..dark elves with connections to the Vyshaan clan......so how could they possibly be Green Elves...and related to the Ilythiiri????? Please explain this to me???
-Those "familial relations" don't preclude the new lore, that the Dark Elves who came to Realmspace in -27,000 were a subset of the greater Green/Wood Elven migration. I don't accept that new lore, since it does go against the grain, so to speak, in saying that Dark Elves were never their own distinct subrace, and since Elves of Faerūn was started before TGHotR came out and amended this information, but it doesn't particularly screw other established lore up.
Weren't there mentions about Dark elves and part of GREEN elves turning to drow? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 06:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Weren't there mentions about Dark elves and part of GREEN elves turning to drow?
-Not sure I understand. Were there mentions of Dark Elves (assuming you want to count them as their own distinct subrace) and Green/Wood Elves transforming into Drow in -10,000? No, just Dark Elves. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 17:43:08
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If I had to guess at the reason this change was done it would be the company trying to rectify complaints and accusations of racism by having all the "good" elves be white. I know they got a lot of flack when drow were first introduced with brown skin and african trappings, which was quickly changed to ebony skin and more fantastic culture, but still there are considerable unfortunate implications involved by having the evil elves remained dark skinned and the good among them literally turn from dark skinned to fair skinned.
Personally I don't mind the change simply on the basis of personal preference; wood elves in my hb are brown skinned with dark hair(think India); it's a look that works, and I see nothing wrong with it. That being said, having no attachment to the previous lore, I don't have much room to talk. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 18:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I know they got a lot of flack when drow were first introduced with brown skin and african trappings, which was quickly changed to ebony skin and more fantastic culture,
This is something I've never heard before... Where does this info come from? |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 18:46:55
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| Ok, that I'll admit I got second hand from some old school dnd players I haven't spoken to in some time, backed up by a few other second hand reports. I'll see if I can't track down a source; regardless, I've seen people(even on this forum) mention the unfortunate implications of having the evil elves punished by being turned black; while in all likelihood not intentionally racist, it could easily be taken that way. And once that mess gets started, with the implications and the accusations, it doesn't matter how much validity the claims have, and companies will look to make appeasements rather than suffer backlash. The only thing that makes me doubt this as a reason for making non evil dark elves literally dark is that it took them so long to do it, but again that might just be because it's only now they have elves getting the drow curse lifted and after so long, having the black elves turn white when they turn good would only serve to fan the flames. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 23:20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Ok, that I'll admit I got second hand from some old school dnd players I haven't spoken to in some time, backed up by a few other second hand reports. I'll see if I can't track down a source; regardless, I've seen people(even on this forum) mention the unfortunate implications of having the evil elves punished by being turned black; while in all likelihood not intentionally racist, it could easily be taken that way. And once that mess gets started, with the implications and the accusations, it doesn't matter how much validity the claims have, and companies will look to make appeasements rather than suffer backlash. The only thing that makes me doubt this as a reason for making non evil dark elves literally dark is that it took them so long to do it, but again that might just be because it's only now they have elves getting the drow curse lifted and after so long, having the black elves turn white when they turn good would only serve to fan the flames.
It's actually something I've mentioned, more than once, in response to people that think a Drizzt movie would be an instant, guaranteed blockbuster. I've not put forth that argument in a while, though, because most people who participated in such threads didn't think it would be an issue. I got tired of arguing about it and just gave up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Retcons are the bane of good lore..... Ask anyone who reads comics.
-Yup. If you want to be "technical", the case has been made that it's not a retcon, since nothing ever implicitly stated that Dark Elves were their own specific Elven subrace...but, that's mostly bunk. Enough had been alluded to and implied to consider them their own specific Elven subrace in all kinds of 1e, 2e, and 3e sourcebooks and 1e-era, 2e-era, and 3e-era novels.
Nope, it's still pretty much a retcon. Miyeritar was populated by BOTH green and dark elves, and so was Ilythiir. The time-line of Cormanthor: Empire of Elves mentions this. And the entire population of Ilythiir was changed, as well as all the survivors of Miyeritar.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
On the one hand, I agree with Sage- we don't know what sort of research she did or didn't do. We also know that some lore changed between editions, so it's possible she was going by newer lore. That said, I DO wonder why that bit wasn't taken into account.
-If you're talking about the hair color part here (not sure), I really don't understand why so many people (not you specifically) have fixated on this issue. Of all of the inconsistencies or lore gaffes contained in that series, and people get up in arms over Dark Elves with white hair, instead of black or brown? I mean, really? It's like politics, where politicians nit-pick everything their political opponents do, and don't take time to pick-and-choose their battles. Very quickly, the nit-picking every little minor thing gets old (even if it's justified).
Ah, no, I was referring to the bit about Corellon's decree to Vaerhaun. Methinks Vaerhaun must have forgotten about that. But obviously Corellon didn't. But he DID warn him! (Guess he should have listened to daddy....)
And I will say that Sage was right in his assessment of my comment on retcons. As an avid reader of comics, I'm very familiar with the sort of damage to continuity that retcons can cause. I've always thought that retcons do more harm to a setting's continuity than they ever "fix".
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 06:27:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's actually something I've mentioned, more than once, in response to people that think a Drizzt movie would be an instant, guaranteed blockbuster. I've not put forth that argument in a while, though, because most people who participated in such threads didn't think it would be an issue. I got tired of arguing about it and just gave up.
-I've heard people mention Wesley Snipes as their "ideal" Drizzt. There isn't a vomit smiley, so this'll have to suffice. 
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah, no, I was referring to the bit about Corellon's decree to Vaerhaun. Methinks Vaerhaun must have forgotten about that. But obviously Corellon didn't. But he DID warn him! (Guess he should have listened to daddy....)
-I still think, since it happened "behind the scenes", that there was more to it than just the whole Vhaeraun-tries-to-sneak-up-and-kill-Eilistraee-in-her-home-realm-and-she-kills-him-instead schpiel. I doubt that anything more will be written on the matter, in detail, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Plenty of deities have done batter and subsumed someone else over the centuries. Eilistraee was changed- not just her priesthood (and that of Vhaeraun, obviously), but she herself- herself. In past accounts of deities subsuming other deities, and taking their portfolios and worshipers, this didn't necessarily happen. I think it's indicative of something more than just she killed and absorbed him. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 Apr 2011 06:31:30 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 06:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I dis agree with that ideal- The perfect Drizzt would be either Ray Parks (Darth Maul, anyone?), or the guy who was in Hellboy 2.
-The reasoning, I guess, was that he was athletic and could do accurate stunts and whatnot, and that he was Black. Getting into the stuff Wooly was alluding to, being Black does not a good Drow make. Elves aren't anatomically/physiologically similar to Humans to begin with, so skin color should not be the basis of selection, since nobody id going to look like a Faerūnian Elf right off the bat. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 14:20:12
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| I could see Parks or Goss(From HB2) do it. Snipes isn't a good enough actor, and has the wrong build. Depp isn't athletic enough. Bloom's staying away from anything big budget right now(plus I doubt he'd want to play another elf ranger). And Doug Jones(Silver Surfer, Abe Sapien)? No way. While I have much respect for Jones as a physical preformer, the man is long and gangly. Phsyically he's flexible enough but at the same time he's too tall, too lanky. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 15:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I dis agree with that ideal- The perfect Drizzt would be either Ray Parks (Darth Maul, anyone?), or the guy who was in Hellboy 2.
In terms of very athletic combat, as evidenced by Park as Snake Eyes in G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra, I could see working just as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 16:03:57
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| As much of a fan as I am of Ray Parks (his skills are truly awe-inspiring), I think his build is way to bulky. I had the pleasure of meeting the guy at a comic convention in Pittsbugh and he was pretty darn broad, close to me and I'm 6'3", 280lb.! I think a better fit might be an asian martial artist. They have very angular features, slim builds, and size comparable to elves of Faerūn. The language barrier wouldn't be that much of a problem for who knows exactly what elven dialect is supposed to sound like (besides probably Ed ). |
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 22:02:36
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So... I've been looking in the 4E FRCG and PG, but I can't find the "Dark Elves" anywhere mentioned.
There are Drow, Eladrin (Sun & Moon), & Elves (Wild & Wood), but no where do I even see mention of those Dark Elves who were redeemed by Elistrae's sacrifice and morphed from Black Skin/White Hair to their pre-sundering appearance of dusky skin/brown-black hair.
anyone have a clue for me? |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 22:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The lore in the Grand History which firmly ties the pre-descent dark elves to the family of green elves was written by me. Those unhappy with that nugget of lore should direct their disapproval my direction and nowhere else. This has nothing to do with 4th-Edition, which I wasnt even aware of as I was working on the Grand History.
At this point the only thing I can ask is how the connection was made/justified?
Say hi to Matt for me. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 06:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The lore in the Grand History which firmly ties the pre-descent dark elves to the family of green elves was written by me. Those unhappy with that nugget of lore should direct their disapproval my direction and nowhere else. This has nothing to do with 4th-Edition, which I wasnt even aware of as I was working on the Grand History.
At this point the only thing I can ask is how the connection was made/justified?
I'm also curious, truth be told. When I heard someone linked drow and green elves, I thought the person was reading something completely wrong. Was that how you saw things, or something else entirely? Looking forward to your reply!!  |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 06:18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Thente Thunderspells
So... I've been looking in the 4E FRCG and PG, but I can't find the "Dark Elves" anywhere mentioned.
There are Drow, Eladrin (Sun & Moon), & Elves (Wild & Wood), but no where do I even see mention of those Dark Elves who were redeemed by Elistrae's sacrifice and morphed from Black Skin/White Hair to their pre-sundering appearance of dusky skin/brown-black hair.
anyone have a clue for me?
-The event itself took place in the Lady Penitent trilogy, written by Lisa Smedman. The FRCG mentions 'Dark Elf' only once, and it is in the context of Drow ("East Rift Lore"). The FRPG does not include 'Dark Elf' anywhere. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 22:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wasn't there a write-up on "Redeemed drow" somewhere? I heard a lot about it right after the last book of LP came out, but don't recall where it was supposed to be.
-Online DRAGON magazine had that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 22:48:51
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| epic destiny..... and the absolute worst epic destiny to me at that. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 23:54:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
epic destiny..... and the absolute worst epic destiny to me at that.
-Don't play 4e or know the rules, but from what I remember hearing, it was a bit underwhelming, yeah. It was more or less a thematic one, whereas so many of the other ones at the time (like two years ago) were so much better. Given that you could only have one, you had to decide between thematic flavor, or game power. Always a hard choice. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 03:07:14
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| I prefer the online magazine, myself. Always felt the "feeling of holding it in your hand, turning the pages" was overstated nostalgia. But that's just me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 14:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm more of the opinion that a magazine you can hold in your hands- and can open again and again whenever you want, and which is solid and can't be lost just by being accidentally deleted or having your PC crash.
In the unfortunate event that this happens, a simple download from the site will will reclaim the lost issue or article. Simply put you can never lose it, tear it, and can download it from any computer that has internet. And u can do this all the time with only a subscription. So its not a pay per download type thing. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 15:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
epic destiny..... and the absolute worst epic destiny to me at that.
As far as ED's go, it's really not that bad. It's 21st level feature is probably the weakest, triggering when only a Demon or Spider reaches 0 hp. It's too situational to really work all that often (but in certain campaigns, might happen quite often).
The 24th level feature is much better, allowing you to exchange your racial "Lolth-touched" power for an expended encounter power. Note that is says "power" not attack or utility so ANY encounter power you expend can be reclaimed which add good versatility.
The 30th level feature is nice when it happens, which probably shouldn't occur very often. When you drop to 0 hp the first time in a day, you automatically regain 1/4 your total hp and resist 10 all damage. And I guess if your dropping to 0 hp more than once per day, than this is a lifesaver. For those who Min/Max, you'll probably only encoutner this feature a handful at times.
The Daily power (Light of Heaven) is actually pretty decent. By becoming bloodied by an attack (any attack, even by your allies) you gain Regeneration 15, shed bright light in 10 squares, and allies within that light resist 10 necrotic. Again, situational but something I think triggers more often than reaching 0 hp. AND it's a free action so on any attack's turn it triggers.
All in all, not an optimized choice but one that you could use well enough and it has flavor. I'd probably go with the Dark Wanderer myself but that's just me and my optimizing/power-gaming ways  . |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 16:47:01
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| DArk Wanderer is one of the best |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 18:46:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm more of the opinion that a magazine you can hold in your hands- and can open again and again whenever you want, and which is solid and can't be lost just by being accidentally deleted or having your PC crash.
In the unfortunate event that this happens, a simple download from the site will will reclaim the lost issue or article. Simply put you can never lose it, tear it, and can download it from any computer that has internet. And u can do this all the time with only a subscription. So its not a pay per download type thing.
Given that everything is now 4th ed only, and I don't play it, it's just not worth my $$ to subscribe to the odd one or two articles that MIGHT have something I can use. I'm on a tight budget, and the stuff I've seen mostly is of no use to me. Plus, you don't get that new-mag high.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 18:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm more of the opinion that a magazine you can hold in your hands- and can open again and again whenever you want, and which is solid and can't be lost just by being accidentally deleted or having your PC crash.
-Agreed. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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4th edition Dark elves questions?
