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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 05:16:15
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Poll Question:
I have for quite some time been torn with this world I have been working on for years on what type of cosmology I'd like to set up. I think I have finally settled on what I am going to do, but it got me thinking what others thought about cosmology in their fantasy.
So here is my question to you as the title of the thread implies - What type of Divine, if any, do you look for in your fantasy? Give your thoughts if you would as well as to why you prefer to see it in a fantasy world and why you think it is best for good fantasy story telling.
Note: Please avoid criticizing real world ideologies, this is meant to only pertain to fantasy worlds. Thanks in advance!
Okay, keep the punches above the belt. Tap gloves. Go! *Bell*
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Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
Edited by - Abenabin Gimblescrew on 23 Apr 2011 19:47:14
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 05:20:55
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In my worlds, gods are myths. They are convenient causes for certain phenomena that the greatest of wizards could not fathom, let alone resolve. And I intend to keep them in that status.......for now. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 05:46:23
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I'm a fan of mystery when it comes to Metaphysics. tell the players that there is no proof of Gods, other than the existance of Divine Magic. what it's exact source is is up for speculation, and thus the myriad Religions of the setting could all be wrong, or right, or close-but-no-cigar.
obviously, with Planar Travel a reality, the Deities (if the even exist) aren't found anywhere in the known Multiverse. perhaps they are living in realms unreachable by mortals? maybe they are Animate Spirits within reality itself? or, for a truely horrifying concept, they all reside in the Far Realm!
it's up to any given DM in such an instance, whether there even are Gods or a God. and the key here is that nobody knows except for teh mighty DM (unless at any point the Truth is Revealed).
that's what I like. =w= |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 11:04:32
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| A pantheon works best for fantasy IMO. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36892 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 11:55:39
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I used to prefer the one pantheon approach used by Krynn and now Golarion... But long exposure to Realmslore has made me really like the multiple pantheon approach. Hence, my choice was "other".  |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:25:41
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Of all D&D worlds I prefer Eberron's set up (except the dragons part), or Dark Sun's. Also the idea of spilled divine blood from Birthright.
In other fantasy the idea of ascendants from the Malazan world, they're not gods, just have some unique superpowers.
In my world, D&D gods can't intervene in the Prime, they have to send or incarnate as avatars, which means taking a risk of losing power or even a portfolio to local demigods or hero-gods. There are hundreds of portfolios divided and fought for, but the importance of a particular one depends on the daily life of mortals, not exactly the number of worshippers. Pantheons are groups with shared interest over some aspect of mortal life. Mortal belief (collective psionic subconscious) shapes the gods and planes, starting in the ethereal. Most important portfolios become concepts. Gods don't control natural forces or processes in the Prime, unless they are called upon to bend the rules a bit. That often unsuccessful, they are hardly omnipotent. There's one god that is omniscient, a blend of Savras and Nethys from Golarion, but is also overwhelmed and crippled. Locally ''god'' is just a word and anything can be called that, idols or such, if a miracle happens it's usually the fanatic person's belief that has done it. |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 14:54:44
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| Small pantheon... |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:20:54
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| I voted "other," but would have liked an "all of the above" option. I want whatever works for the story I'm reading/writing/playing in. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:27:04
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In the home brew setting I've been mucking about with the inhabitants have no more proof of the existence of gods - or otherwise - than we have. I'm leaning towards different pantheons for different human groups; some have a few deities, others hundreds. Dwarves believe in three gods, elves in none.
Religion will be an important part of the world, the existence of gods less so. There is no divine magic; religious spell casters draw upon the same magical framework as other spell casters . Whether their religion believes that magic is heaven sent is a purely doctrinal matter. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 16:11:18
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Really, I'd have to say it depends on how the setting functions in relation to the divine pantheons. I can't say there is one specific format that I prefer, since I often tend to find something to like in almost every divine framework.
Having said that:-
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I used to prefer the one pantheon approach used by Krynn and now Golarion...
This would likely come close to describing my position on divine set-ups, if I had to be entirely specific. I love the differing racial interpretations of a standard core pantheon of deities, as evidenced in DRAGONLANCE. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 21 Apr 2011 16:12:50 |
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Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 18:24:51
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In our 2e campaign the gods follow ‘The Higher, the fewer’ rule. There are fewer clerics per capita at each higher level. So for a cleric at 1st level, other than spells, not much will happen. But at 12th level there are significantly fewer clerics of that caliber so their prayers are heard and if important, responded to.
We have 2 clerics, one neutral dwarven of Haela Brightaxe and one lawful good human of Tyr. The dwarven gods tend to be more ‘hands on’ per FR11.
Also in game the clerics, particularly the dwarf, often receive ‘visions’ of missions to be undertaken or wrongs to be undone that send the party off on adventures.
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"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 19:08:00
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| I chose "Other" because it really depends on the fantasy world, whether it be a novel line and/or roleplaying setting. For the Realms specifically, I really enjoyed the complexity of the pantheons, and the "slimming down" of the deity roll call list in 4e is one of the reasons I was so vehemently upset initially (now I am just kind of "meh" towards it). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 20:39:53
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I voted other, because I have seen it done multiple effective ways. It depends more on the writer than on the setup.
In my own, creator-owned fantasy world, the gods are a mystery, though there were many at one time. They were last worshipped in any real, collective way over a thousand years ago, and though there are some people who keep to the old ways, by and large the practice of worshipping divine entities has faded from the world.
Those who consider themselves godly refer to these beings as "the old gods," and may be dead or never have existed, but either way they're pretty much missing in action. They don't grant spells or other powers. Interaction with the gods takes the form of dreams, visions, hallucinations, or just "feelings" that one gets.
There is also a host of lesser gods who embody relatively small things like a particular river, or a mountain, or a chasm, etc. These are more like nature spirits than gods, I suppose, but that's what they call them.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 22:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Fingal
In the home brew setting I've been mucking about with the inhabitants have no more proof of the existence of gods - or otherwise - than we have. I'm leaning towards different pantheons for different human groups; some have a few deities, others hundreds. Dwarves believe in three gods, elves in none.
Religion will be an important part of the world, the existence of gods less so. There is no divine magic; religious spell casters draw upon the same magical framework as other spell casters . Whether their religion believes that magic is heaven sent is a purely doctrinal matter.
this I like! ^.^ I have considered eliminating the difference between Arcane and Divine Magic in my homebrew as well. I might still do it, but then I'd have to change a few things around.
you see, I have two majour religions that are at War with eachother; the New Order is an Animistic religion with a strong basis on Necromancy. they claim that there are Spirits for everything, and that is what they worship. they are quickly rising in popularity, and have become the state religion of most of the Empire that the PCs will start in.
the Old Ways is a Pantheon of 12 gods, and has a creation mythology very much like Pagan religions. many Mages practice the Old Ways, even if they are not very religious they still tend to observe Holidays, mainly as ceremony or in rebellion of the New Order.
there is also another pantheon of 12 gods which is based on the Zodiac. this one is considered even more Occult than the Old Ways, and while it is still known it has many forgotten secrets. however, there are eldritch leftovers hidden in far off regions and sacred places. the Dragon Lords are some of the only beings to know the truth and mysteries of this religion.
on the matter of Dragon Lords, see, in my homebrew setting the Dragons have been hunted nearly to extinction. most Dragons are still very immature and reduced to the level of beasts and wild animals despite their intelligence and cunning; they are simply no match anymore for the Humanoid races. however, there are 16 Dragon Lords who are all between Ancient and Great Wyrm status, with character levels to boot. these Dragon Lords are sovereigns over vast territories, and some of them are the true powers behind some governments. they are the only Dragons still feared, respected and revered. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 06:42:35
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-In my setting, I initially used the "deities are very real that interact with the world a lot" feel that Planescape and the Forgotten Realms use. I've been updating and refining basically the entire world, and decided that it's a lot easier to insert the schisms and political intrigue that I've been inserting by having the "deities exist...maybe" feel that Eberron uses, so I switched to that. That meant culling a lot of the deities that I initially had in the world. I have a few deities, most in the vein that our religions are, that explain the origins of the world, etc.
-The existence of extraplanar entities throws a wrench into things a bit, so I still need to work out all of the kinks. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 06:56:06
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| I did something similar, Dagnirion, in going with a Planescape/FR type of set-up, with very real gods who interact a lot. with the mortal world. In fact, mine are quite meddlesome, sort of like the Olympian gods. Some are in the habit of appearing to mortals, either to impart warnings or wisdom, to give faith to their followers, to play games with mortals (whether those mortals follow them or not), or simply to flaunt their power. I used the multiple-pantheon approach, with each race having a god or gods they worship, though there is some overlap. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 08:11:07
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| Very large pantheon (like in Shintoism with major deities but then also many minor deities) or many pantheons (like if all the Gods people imagined in the real world WERE real but in a fantasy setting) |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 22 Apr 2011 08:11:51 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 12:59:29
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| I voted other, because I prefer several pantheons with more intrigue and culture. |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 20:15:16
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I picked "all of the above" because that is how my world is.
In many regions of the "known world" there is a dominant religion that has only one god...and his clerics teach he is the only true god and all others are demons or imposters.
That same God, however, is also worshiped in areas where there is Ancestor Worship, and he is seen as the progenitor of their entire pantheon.
Still in other places, they are godless, but believe heavily in the Druidic traditions and ascribe the powers to the spirits of the world...but the spirits are not worshiped, only worked with.
Then there are also many other religions, some centered around worship of anything from Vampires as Immortals worthy of pious admiration and veneration...to Rakshasa who are sacrificed to with the first fruits of every family's children!
I like variety in my world...having different religious beliefs depending what belief system dominates in any one particular area...and having some areas where there is a slow blend along the borders of major dominating faiths...such as the Kingdom of Mahn, where the monotheistic Church of Vhal grudgingly accepts that Druids are somewhat ok simply because they don't offer prayer to any other gods...and so aren't strictly speaking pagans because they don't actually worship anything at all but simply give veneration to very real spirits that the Church has to accept as really there since anyone can see them. It is hard to deny a Unicorn when it is standing there talking to you...and seems to be friends with the "Angel" (deva) that you summoned to aid you! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 20:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I voted "other," but would have liked an "all of the above" option. I want whatever works for the story I'm reading/writing/playing in.
Fixed! I felt like I was forgetting an option before I hit post.
Fairly overwhelming response in Pantheon and Other category. However, I'm seeing a trend to multi-pantheons in the worlds favored by most. Not too surprised considering the Realms is such and I must agree that is why I enjoy it more than other settings.
Not to say settings like Greyhawk, Birthright, or Eberron don't have their own luster, but I think the Realms found (at least before the Spellplague) a nice balance.
I voted All the above. I enjoy whatever may come from an author or DM.
As for them being active or passive (or there at all) - I'm not very bias towards either of them. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Abenabin Gimblescrew
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I voted "other," but would have liked an "all of the above" option. I want whatever works for the story I'm reading/writing/playing in.
Fixed! I felt like I was forgetting an option before I hit post.
Fairly overwhelming response in Pantheon and Other category. However, I'm seeing a trend to multi-pantheons in the worlds favored by most. Not too surprised considering the Realms is such and I must agree that is why I enjoy it more than other settings.
Not to say settings like Greyhawk, Birthright, or Eberron don't have their own luster, but I think the Realms found (at least before the Spellplague) a nice balance.
I voted All the above. I enjoy whatever may come from an author or DM.
As for them being active or passive (or there at all) - I'm not very bias towards either of them.
heh.. ironic. that's one of the main reasons that FR is no longer one of my favourites (used to be my very favourite). |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:18:09
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| I use multiple pantheons, some non-deistic philosophies, some monotheistic religions, and some naythiest and malthiest groups. I keep ambiguity to an apsolute minimum; while I personally believe a divine force exists, I think its nature is inherently unknowable by mortals. However, in my fantasy I like it as unambiguous as to the existance and nature of the gods as possible. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 00:31:33
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If someday I were to make my gods rise from mere myths, I would make them independent from the prayers of the people. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 24 Apr 2011 00:32:48 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 00:39:42
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| Thats another thing I do; a god's power is independant of their following. Sometimes a god will intentionally allow itself to be forgotten so it can plot and scheme in safety without drawing attention to itself. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 01:38:59
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I wouldn't make an Overgod. It's better to see the children (gods) play at the park (heaven) without the parents' supervision. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 08:57:04
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Chosen of Asmodeus - Other than worshipers how would you determine which Gods were more powerful? Would they have God levels? Why bother having followers then? Although I suppose in real world mythologies a Gods power was independent of mortals. Poseidon wouldn't be less powerful if you didn't worship him...he'd just do nasty stuff to you = P
I prefer the concept of faith and belief in a God determining its power...in Planescape terms with belief shaping the universe. Although not necessarily number of worshipers determining their power. For example Hathor might be worshiped as much as Horus-Re...but Horus-Re would be more powerful because people believe he is, for example. |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 09:47:14
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I would have to say that if hypothetically there were a system where the Gods power wa sin fact independent of worship or belief, that they would have a ban on them preventing their direct involvement in the world; that would give them a reason to have followers, because they would need mortal agents to do their dirty work on the Prime Material Plane.
however, I personally like the idea of Gods requiring worship/belief in order to exist. it makes things all the more dire, and also adds a certain intricate simplicity that I like. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 08:34:34
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I prefer to make the gods' limitation internal (their very nature) than external (people's prayers). I would also shy away from having them subsume each other. Challenge, yes; but definitely not subsume. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 01:55:07
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Unlike most gods in fantasy settings, I would like mine not to have exact forms. They would be more like a "presence." And they would only don a "form" at whim, or when they deem necessary, like appearing before their faithful, or when having a congregation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 07:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I also prefer power independant of worship in my pantheons. My own gods have power depending on the importance of their domains. In other words, the god of death or goddess of the earth would be much more important than the god of plagues or goddess of peace. They have more influence over peoples' lives.
-This is the formula I worked out to determine the relative power of a deity:
Po = (Wf x Wb) + P1 + P2...
where
Po = Power
Wf = Worshiper Faith
Wb = Worship Base
P1 = Portfolio 1
P2 = Portfolio 2
and so on...
-This is very rough, as mentioned. Arbitrary numbers are assigned to the variables, to make the data interpretable. So, let me use a quick example, using Deity 'A', 'B', and 'C'.
Deity A: 100 followers, very high fervor, 3 portfolios (1 worth 100, 2 worth 50)
Deity B: 1,000 followers, moderate fervor, 5 portfolios (5 worth 50)
Deity C: 10,000 followers, low fervor, 1 portfolio (1 worth 100)
Deity A
Po = (15 x 100) + 100 + 50 +50
Po = 1,700
Deity B
Po = (10 x 100) + (50 x 5)
Po = 1,250
Deity C
Po = (2 x 10,00) + 100
Po = 20,100
-Thus, we have an explanation as to how there are deities who have lots of worshipers who are Intermediate Powers, deities that have few worshipers who are Greater Powers, and everything in-between. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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How do you like the Divine set up in your fantasy?
