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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 16:42:08
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Yeah, Shade would go ballistic with Shar's death. What, exactly, they do depends on how she's killed. If it's by an outside force they can take on (ie: adventurers) they'd devote themselves to wiping them out. If it's something more powerful (ie: gods), they might go to war against their respective clergies.
In either case, any of the Shade priests would probably start work on trying to bring her back, and they'd probably have the full support of their wizard comrades. Especially if other gods start going after the shadow weave in Shar's absence. If the Shades lose the shadow weave, they lose a great deal of their power. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 16:49:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I suggest that whatever "replaces" Shar be far worse and vile! 
"Better the evil you know..."
I disagree. Shar is one of the most vile of deities, you'd be hard press to find one better. As people have already alluded to, if Bane can make a comeback I'm sure Shar could/would (depending on the DM).
Besides, if there was just a BBEG just waiting in the wings that steps into one of the creators of Toril I would call any DM out on poor story construction. That would be a crippling blow for Evil at the cosmic level, which the aftermath could go either way.
What would be more terrifying is the Gods War after her demise. While many assume a lot of her portfolio is "Evil" in origin I don't see it as such.
Here is her portfolio: Caverns, dark, dungeons, forgetfulness, loss, night, secrets, the Underdark.
Nothing in the list there says you must be evil to obtain said portfolios. While the majority of the Underdark is evil, I'll give you that, it isn't inherently so.
I say it'll go a few ways here. First, Selune being her twin and far closer to Shar than any other deity would probably just absorb her portfolios. Ending the eons of strife and probably Selune returning the Shadow Weave to its rightful owner Mystra. Possibly giving to the rebirth of Mystryl as chamber101 pointed out. I've seen it in the Faiths and Pantheons under Mystra's History/Relationships on page 50.
The Shadow Weave isn't apart of the Weave, but Shar's attempt to undermine the Weave. It also hints that perhaps 4e's death of Mystra may have been apart of Mystra's plan all along. Here is the line from Faiths and Pantheons same page:
It is Mystra's aim to eventually subsume the Shadow Weave into her own portfolio, even if that means sacrificing her last remaining vestiges of humanity and inherent goodness and absorbing more of the darkness that is Shar.
In all honesty, I don't think the designers have that much foresight. What I have read is pretty much just a retcon like has been pointed out frequently. I don't think this needs to be rehashed, but was just reiterating for clarification of my stance.
The second option is Mask gets word of Shar's plan to absorb him and takes steps to move against her as well as acquire a few of her portfolios in the process to be sure. He manipulates her enemies against her (Selune, Mystra, and I'm sure a few more deities I just don't care to look up for at the moment). Mask gets what he wants and lets the aftermath of Shar's death plays itself out as he quietly slips away with his prize in tow.
The final one I would say would just be an all out slug fest in the pantheon for her portfolios as I stated earlier above. A Gods War would shake Faerun and Toril, but it is probably even worst than any evil could do alone.
First off, you'd have holy wars between worshipers taking place going on crusades to smite out Sharran clergy/worshipers (I'm seeing Bane leading this to convert or kill any of her followers that don't bend to his will). It wouldn't just be solely against Sharran worshipers for I'm sure other gods would wish to stop evil deities' worshipers from taking all the possible new mortal worshipers for themselves.
I could easily see crusades from good, neutral, and evil faiths starting a holy war for this very purpose during the cosmic upheaval of Shar's absence. The Underdark would also feel the impact of her loss, but then again I doubt the denizens would really notice the difference except times would be more chaotic than normal for a while.
I could see Toril having a lot of violent unrest with a possible cataclysmic ending due to gods warring throughout the cosmos. It probably wouldn't be a Time of Troubles, but I think at the end there would be a definitely different pantheon. Not necessarily a bunch of deicides, but certainly shift in power for many.
Depending on how much change you want and the transition you want I'd save the third option for a DM that really wants to put a lot of thought in the outcome. It is kind of like a "Divine Cataclysmic Event" or "Realms Shaking Event" - take your pick. It will be a lot of work to say the least.
The first two options in my opinion would be far easier to implement and save on a lot of micromanaging of the DM having to figure out what is happening with the gods while he is dealing with his PCs.
In conclusion, these are only a few ideas I have had through either inspiration from other sources or ideas from brainstorming with fellow players on how to kill Shar. No matter how you go about it, though, it is going to be a very epic journey to be sure. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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chamber101
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 18:06:42
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Great stuff Abenabim!
Thats exactly what I am after; an epic journey and a realms changing event.
The idea of a mass of holy/unholy crusades as various churches fight over the remnants of Shars church (whether to absorb them or destroy them) is awesome and something I considered so I am prepared to book some days off to work on this as it isnt only the faiths that need to be considered but also the various and many organisations thorughout Toril and how they would mobilise/prepare/react to such an event.
(better stock up on printer ink!!!) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 18:10:20
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| I believe that Mask already foresaw Shar consuming him, and that is what he was preparing for with the events chronicled in the Twilight War trilogy. I also believe that said events may provide for his rebirth in the forthcoming Godborn, first book in the Cycle of Night. So I think it is premature to think him truly gone until we see future events, being written right now, unfold. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 23:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Abenabin Gimblescrew
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I suggest that whatever "replaces" Shar be far worse and vile!
"Better the evil you know..."
I disagree. Shar is one of the most vile of deities, you'd be hard press to find one better. As people have already alluded to, if Bane can make a comeback I'm sure Shar could/would (depending on the DM).
Besides, if there was just a BBEG just waiting in the wings that steps into one of the creators of Toril I would call any DM out on poor story construction. That would be a crippling blow for Evil at the cosmic level, which the aftermath could go either way.
<snip>
Poor story construction? You mean like Cyric being able to murder the God of Magic on the God's home plane and causing the redrawing of all Faerun? That sort of poorness?
How about if the God that "did in" Shar had help from a God that was more powerful than Shar? How about if the God that "did in" Shar actually wasn't able to destroy her...but imprison her and then syphon the power of her worshipers? How about if the God that "did in" Shar actually worked with Mystra to strip the Shadow Weave from Shar and give it to Mystra?
How about:
Dalor Darden
The Darkflame, the Black Arch-Mage, the Fiend Seer, the Anti-Mage, the Last One, Lord of Favors
Greater Deity
Symbol: A black flame (sometimes with two red eyes)
Home Plane: Plane of Shadow (portals to the Abyss, Nine Hells, and other Infernal Realms)
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Portfolio: Alien things, caverns, dark, dark favors, dungeons, evil, fiendish dealings, forgetfulness, loss, night, power, secrets, the Underdark, & vice
Worshipers: Shadow adepts, shades, wizards, cultists, fiendish creatures, anarchists, assassins, avengers, monks (Dark Moon), nihilists, rogues, shadow dancers, fiendish creatures and aberrations
Cleric Alignments: LE, NE, CE
Domains: Darkness, Evil, Corruption, Knowledge, Magic
Favored Weapon: “Darkshaft” (Quarterstaff)
Dalor is, simply put, the Lord and Master of Evil. His is the power of dark magic and evil incarnate. His tools are fiendish servants and alien creatures from otherworldly realities. His strength is hidden within fiend cults, evil wizard cabals, the morally corrupt and lone seekers of dark magic for the sake of power. He is the epitome of the power hungry wizard, for he hoards magical knowledge to himself with ever a hungry eye on what can next be gained while eliminating those that have what he does not. He promotes among worshipers this same ideology so that what they bring to the afterlife will be his alone. Dalor most commonly takes the form of an ebon-skinned human about seven feet tall and of athletic build with lustrous stark white long hair that frames a finely chiseled face in which are a pair of glowing red eyes. His only clothing consists of finely crafted unadorned robes of black, a matching hooded cloak and breeches, and black leather knee-high boots. Always in his grasp is a slender staff of pitch black alien alloy that stands exactly as tall as the Black Arch-Mage. He has many other guises, ranging from an elderly sage to a young sycophant.
The Church of Dalor has no central structure at all, as each temple maintains its own base of power separate from (but sometimes in competition against) other temples. Only the rare Solar Eclipse and nights of the New Moon will bring the “Conclave of Dark Seers” together to receive instruction from a servant or (rarely) an avatar of Dalor.
Clerics of Dalor pray for their spells at dusk or midnight; depending on the preference of the individual cleric. Holy days for the entire church are Solar Eclipses, nights of a New Moon (called “Night of the Master’s Eye”), and the Day of Dark Dawning which is a celebration of Dalor taking the power of Shar from her inept hands and destroying her. On nights of a New Moon, clergy often mount attacks against enemies or unsuspecting people who have magic the cleric desires. The individual temples sometimes sponsor magical duels within their deepest chambers and reward the winner with spell scrolls, wands, or other rare items; then raid the holdings of the now dead wizard. Because the church has fewer lay worshipers than other churches dedicated to a Greater Deity, Dalor has actually instructed clerics to attempt to gain converts by use of addictive drugs and mind influencing magic. Many temples have opened brothels and drug parlors to pursue this avenue, and have found that those unworthy of Dalor’s favor still make excellent sacrifices to cement deals with the various fiends that are summoned to do the church’s bidding. To ensure secrecy, new “converts” are promised what it is they most desire (whether it be wealth, power, sex, drugs, etc.) and are sent to the actual temple to undergo rituals to determine which will actually become clerics and which will become slaves or sacrifices.
History/Relationships: The history of Dalor is for the most part a total unknown factor. Short of what other gods and a very few mortals may know; little of anything is known of this god. What is known is: he was born of a race of exceptionally powerful wizards from an alternate prime material plane. This race had once ruled thousands of planets in a star spanning empire; but by the time Dalor was born, all that remained of the empire after a great war was a small continental empire on a single world which was not their native home. For unknown reasons Dalor was banished from this world in his youth shortly before the last remnants of his people were destroyed by godly forces in a great magical cataclysm. This occurred roughly 1,500 years ago; about the same time that Tyr first came to Toril. The young, but greatly powerful, wizard is said to have traveled to many worlds, planes, and even through time itself; eventually gaining such great power that he achieved self apotheosis. Such was the nature of the procedure, however, that he nearly lost himself to forces bent upon the destruction of the very Multiverse itself. Needing to shed this unwanted influence from himself, he found the means upon the world of Toril.
Creating a powerful Avatar named Barak; Dalor vested in it a great deal of his own power (supposedly even giving aspects of his portfolio to it and making it a Demi-god itself), cast it into the lands north of the Moonsea, and then cut it off completely. Thus came to the Pantheon of Faerun the Demi-god of Power, Conquest, Tyranny, and War named Barak shortly before the Time of Troubles. Not without contingency plans for disposal of his alter-ego, Dalor saw to the destruction of the Demi-god by way of manipulation of several mortals and gods during the Time of Troubles.
Now free of the outside influences which brought about his ascension to godhood (and having regained his temporarily lost power as well as having endeared himself to several mortals and a god suspected to have been Bane; who many now blame Dalor for helping to return to Faerun) Dalor set about attaining the power he truly desired. Once again manipulating mortals and gods alike, the Demi-god Dalor (claiming the portfolio of the Deity of Power, Fiendish Dealings, and Alien Things) began a strategy to ensure his ascent to his current station. In an as yet to be understood plan, he began to awaken the long dead deity Amaunator the Sun God within the lands of Chessenta by granting spells to those who would accept the teachings of this god as taught (truthfully despite his nature) by Dalor himself who posed as the Oracle of Amaunator. Further plots, some involving the power of the now awakened Sun God, involved bringing the City of Shade back from the Plane of Shadow, opening of numerous new Shadow Magic Portals and Gates throughout Faerun, the sound defeat and enslavement of Tiamat’s Avatar in a spectacular battle outside the City of Akanax, breaking Shar’s grasp on the Shadow Weave by destruction of a Shadow Weave artifact and mass desertion of her worship by the City of Shade to the worship of Dalor, and finally his ascent to his current power which resulted from unknown means of a ritual involving the destruction of the Shadow Weave artifact and the avatar of Tiamat he had chained by his magic; the end result being the death of Shar, Mystra claiming all magic, and Dalor becoming a powerful God in his own right.
Dalor has become, in short order, one of the most powerful gods in Faerun; but it has brought him many enemies. Many speculate that his aiding Amaunator was only done to maintain a balance within the pantheon as mandated by Ao; and the Sun God now calls Dalor an enemy because of this manipulation and their diametrically opposed portfolios. The deities Cyric, Talos, and Bane resent his power; and now call him enemy alongside such gods as Selune, Lathander, Tiamat, Mystra, Kelemvor, and others; though Mystra, now changed by taking the mantle of the Shadow Weave, is often neutral concerning Dalor and his advances of obviously deceitful love he professes. Counted among his allies (if they can be trusted) would be the deities Beshaba, Gargauth (as a fiendish intermediary), Mask, Velsharoon (who has totally gone over to allegiance to Dalor), his son Zal-Kaeth, grandsons Vhalketh and Zaelnan, and various fiendish powers such as Baphomet, Grazzt, Orcus, Pazrael, and even (if rumors can be believed) Asmodeus; who is said to have given his favored daughter Glasya to Dalor in marriage to cement some pact.
Dogma: In the scheme of the gods themselves, the purpose of life is gaining power. The gods work ceaselessly against each other to gain more followers who give them power; why should mortals be any different? Seek out magic which will give you power and use those who can do your bidding to increase your strength; whether they be a easily manipulated paramour or a dangerous fiend. Evil is a power none can deny, for the infinite legions of the Abyss and the Nine Hells are an inexhaustible source of power to be used against enemies. Seek out knowledge of any kind that can only be found where others fear to tread. Advocate the use of dark magic by showing its power against the weak and frayed powers of light that slowly crumble as light attempts to treat all equally and thus disperses its own power. Destroy the enemies of the Darkflame who would stand against his power, and use their magic to further his will. Do not oppose the power of the Black Arch-Mage, for no force is his equal; he has at his disposal the legions of the infernal realms and the unfettered might of darkness to command. In the end, Dalor will control all and only those of use to him will be given some measure of power to use for his glory.
Clergy and Temples: Dalor’s clerics are almost all power hungry; and use whatever means at their disposal to gain power and keep it. They congregate in lands where their evil natures can actually aid them in their pursuits; while elsewhere they are most often lone individuals who either live in reclusive towers in pursuit of dark researches or travel about in search of lost magic. They sometimes sponsor dark academies where the only price for attending is not being the last to graduate from your class; for if you are, your soul is forfeit to the very fiendish instructors who you once learned magic from. A rare cleric will actually take on the role of sage and seer, willing to aid others with knowledge for payment in evil magical items or other things best left unsaid. The vilest of his clergy usually become so wrapped in their dealings with fiendish and alien creatures that they often become diabolical and/or alien themselves. Such men and women are friend to none and will even destroy other followers of Dalor in their mad schemes for more power. All temples to Dalor seek out Paladins that can be corrupted into Blackguards who further their master’s power; and even raise from adolescence young boys and girls to serve as unholy warriors who train as fighter/clerics or fighter/Divine Champions.
Temples to Dalor vary wildly in their layout, location, and strength. Most are hidden affairs known only to the actual clerics and other worshipers who live there. Some few are little more than shrines where a “kindly” sage in good cities retreats to perform evil rites when the unlucky fall within their grasp. Dalor is not a deity of absolute darkness per se; and his temples are not the typical brooding dungeons those of good disposition would expect them to be. He expects his followers to display the might of their patron god in the temples; and so displays of finely crafted halls, extensive libraries, laboratories, rich tapestries, golden objects of art, and well equipped guards will certainly be found within temples who can afford such. Less prominent temples will still be found within well maintained structures and have at least a fine altar with well guarded adjoining rooms.
Clerics of Dalor dress uniformly in darker colors, with black, dark gray, midnight blue, or deepest purple nearly always prominent. Clerics strive to obtain the finest armor and weapons they can gain; some even going so far as to learn the skills of armor-smith or weapon-smith. Clerics are not required to display the holy symbol of their deity; but it will always be upon their person.
The most prominent temple of Dalor, known to outsiders, stands near the Thayan city of Eltabbar. The structure is a massive tower a hundred feet in diameter and three hundred feet tall; with a writhing mass of black fire stretching into the sky another one hundred or so feet. A ring of thirteen smaller towers, each thirty feet in diameter and ninety feet tall, surround the central structure and are joined by an imposing fortified wall bristling with minarets and the spears of patrolling guards. The courtyard between the central structure and the wall is a garden paradise filled with all manner of welcoming pleasures to tempt outsiders. Access is granted freely every day to any who wish to convert to the worship of Dalor; but after entry, none are ever allowed to leave without permission. The mistress of this glorious edifice is said to be none other than Dalor’s own wife Glasya; but none can confirm having ever seen her or even heard her name spoken within the halls. Few wish to speak her name at any rate, for she is the daughter of Asmodeus himself, Arch-fiend of the Nine Hells.
An order of powerful Blackguards and Divine Champions (guided somewhat by Clerics and Wizards) resides in the land of Chessenta; rulers of the equally powerful City-State of Akanax. The city was where Dalor began the resurrection of the god Amaunator; but the citizens of that city have been converted to the worship of their former “Oracle” after he openly proclaimed himself outside the city of Cimbar which the legions of Akanax were besieging. The Scions of the Dark Lord are a highly motivated and organized order with no qualms about destroying whole cities which refuse their power. They are the driving force behind an effort to re-unite Chessenta; and have a solid chance of success. Their efforts have recently been opposed by the concentrated efforts of Tiamat’s own clergy and adventurers who are rumored to actually be the mortals who unwittingly helped Dalor gain his power.
The true heart of Dalor’s faithful exists in the nation of Dambrath. Once a land ruled by only barbaric half-drow clerics of Loviatar; Dalor has stripped the people of this land away into his own church completely. The cities have each been given in alliance with some fiend or another by the Black Arch-Mage; and each fiend is given worship here alongside the Darkflame; Lord of Fiends. Many believe Dalor is attempting to found his own Pantheon of Deities in the south. Within Dambrath are temples devoted to the Dark Gods: Dalor, Zal-Kaeth, Glasya, Vhalketh, and Zaelnan; all related to Dalor. Despite the nations obviously evil bent, it is heavily involved with negotiations in several neighboring lands for trade and peaceful existence. To the abject horror of many, a new faction of Shadow Adepts within Halruaa are trying to violently force unification with their Dark Lord’s growing empire. Open battle has yet to occur within Halruaa; but most suspect civil war is close. If such a war happens within Halruaa, many say the dark legions of Dambrath would happily invade, as they have done before, to create a “Dark Empire” in the south despite their overtures of peace and trade.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 01:13:36
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I'm not sure which idea scares me more: that you already had all that typed up and ready to go, or that you could compose it on the fly...
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 01:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm not sure which idea scares me more: that you already had all that typed up and ready to go, or that you could compose it on the fly...
That was actually the major villain in my old Forgotten Realms game. He is actually in another thread here at the Keep.
I'm prone to writing a bit at times...but I won't say I wrote that up even recently. It has been some years ago now, before I lost quite a bit of my ability/talent at writing from too much oxygen deprivation due to heart complications. 
My brain is recharging though! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 06:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I believe that Mask already foresaw Shar consuming him, and that is what he was preparing for with the events chronicled in the Twilight War trilogy. I also believe that said events may provide for his rebirth in the forthcoming Godborn, first book in the Cycle of Night. So I think it is premature to think him truly gone until we see future events, being written right now, unfold.
My apologies. I haven't read any of the books just what I've gleamed from reading the forum discussions. It would be interesting to hear if Mask does indeed make a comeback. I'll keep a lookout for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Abenabin Gimblescrew
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I suggest that whatever "replaces" Shar be far worse and vile!
"Better the evil you know..."
I disagree. Shar is one of the most vile of deities, you'd be hard press to find one better. As people have already alluded to, if Bane can make a comeback I'm sure Shar could/would (depending on the DM).
Besides, if there was just a BBEG just waiting in the wings that steps into one of the creators of Toril I would call any DM out on poor story construction. That would be a crippling blow for Evil at the cosmic level, which the aftermath could go either way.
<snip>
Poor story construction? You mean like Cyric being able to murder the God of Magic on the God's home plane and causing the redrawing of all Faerun? That sort of poorness?
How about if the God that "did in" Shar had help from a God that was more powerful than Shar? How about if the God that "did in" Shar actually wasn't able to destroy her...but imprison her and then syphon the power of her worshipers? How about if the God that "did in" Shar actually worked with Mystra to strip the Shadow Weave from Shar and give it to Mystra?
I am getting the impression you took what I said personally. All I can say is it wasn't my intention to single out anyone in a specific sense.
Impressive write up on your homebrew deity. I'm sure he works well in your Realms.
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Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 06:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Abenabin Gimblescrew
I am getting the impression you took what I said personally. All I can say is it wasn't my intention to single out anyone in a specific sense.
Impressive write up on your homebrew deity. I'm sure he works well in your Realms.
Wrong impression mate...I was only being sarcastic toward the death of Mystra.
Thanks on that version of Dalor...he did indeed work well for that campaign.
I don't use him outside of that game though...he really only fit in that game because of the characters in the game. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 07:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Karsus isn't important enough to warrant such a nemesis. (IMO, of course. I know you probably feel differently  )
-Apparently, Shar manipulated that great, mighty, handsome Arcanist. A revolting development. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 04:55:49
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You know, I haven't had a thought that Mystra could make such a plan to get killed on purpose. Come to think of it, magic still exists and Shadow Weave does not. Perhaps the purpose of the silver sparks of Chosens were given much greater goal than just resurrecting Mystra.
Mostly wild theories with no back up other than gut feeling, but it could be that death of Shar could break balance, since both Selune and Shar made world, with darkness as basis for mater. Who knows... Mega disintegration of all living and nonliving? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 16:03:40
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Whoa, the implications of the death of a greater deity such as Shar are huge. First her portfolios would attract alot of divine attention. Then her domain in the Shadowplane (if it survived her destruction) would be up for grabs aswell. Her secert clergy would likely fall into disarray too.
I'd think Cyric would be very interested in the spoils of war his former allied mistress would leave behind, especially the Secrets portfolio. Night would likely be secured by Mask or Selune. Forgetfullness and Loss are both powerful spheres of influence in Fearun, and I have my doubts there are any able gods up to the challenge of maintaining these; perhaps Cyric or Talos can learn to harness these portfolios. Dungeons, Caverns, the Underdark could all be usefull for Lolth, Loviatar, Gruumsh or Deep Duerra.
Shars domain in the Plane of Shadow is so obfuscated and lightless that few deities can quickly take it for themselves. Mask is probably the most knowledgable of this realm that he could maintain a certain influence over it, but my guess is that Shars domain will be abaondoned and merged into the greater depths of ths Plane of Shadow itself.
On Fearun proper Sharran cells deeply intwined into societies are likely to fall into chaos, but as these are largely very secretive and hidden from plain sight the consequences are not that easily felt by Fearuns populace. Selunite churches would have a long period of repsite from the multiple machinations of the Sharran cells against their churches, so they are likely to gain a much more prevalent place in societies. Likewise, all the governmental institutions will be able to much more effectively operate without the mulitple assassinations and corruption of their members.
But largely I think Selune would be at a loss aswell. Her darker half would be destroyed utterly, and missing a twin sister would make her morose for quite the time. I always thought her intention towards Shar were to let her see some positive light, not destroy her. She'd become a more depressed deity for having failed her own other side. So I agree with Alystra that she might become a much more darker moongoddes as a result of all that. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 17:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Whoa, the implications of the death of a greater deity such as Shar are huge. First her portfolios would attract alot of divine attention. Then her domain in the Shadowplane (if it survived her destruction) would be up for grabs aswell. Her secert clergy would likely fall into disarray too.
If you take what Paul Kemp wrote in his Cale series as cannon (which I think is meant to be) then Shar death could actually be more catastrophic than Mystra's. While Mystra is a deity only tied to the Realms, Shar's influence spread to several worlds in the multiverse (one of which is visited in the Twilight War trilogy). So I think that her death might actually hurt the cosmos. If I were to think of a way to have PCs accomplish the task, I would go with making the gather and assemble the pieces to an artifact that can trap the soul of a deity in the body of one of its avatars. Not that even defeating one of Shar's avatars would be easy (see F&P 3e, page 60). It would definitely be an epic campaign. Also, if the PCs learn about how much more detrimental Shar's death would be than Mystra's, they may decide not to go through with it. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 17:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
I don't like the idea of a replacement for Shar. But getting rid of her is a good thing. Vivat for Ibrandul... and patching a dark part onto Selune :D
Yay! Glad to see someone else thinks Ibrandul rocks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 18:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Whoa, the implications of the death of a greater deity such as Shar are huge. First her portfolios would attract alot of divine attention. Then her domain in the Shadowplane (if it survived her destruction) would be up for grabs aswell. Her secert clergy would likely fall into disarray too.
If you take what Paul Kemp wrote in his Cale series as cannon (which I think is meant to be) then Shar death could actually be more catastrophic than Mystra's. While Mystra is a deity only tied to the Realms, Shar's influence spread to several worlds in the multiverse (one of which is visited in the Twilight War trilogy). So I think that her death might actually hurt the cosmos. If I were to think of a way to have PCs accomplish the task, I would go with making the gather and assemble the pieces to an artifact that can trap the soul of a deity in the body of one of its avatars. Not that even defeating one of Shar's avatars would be easy (see F&P 3e, page 60). It would definitely be an epic campaign. Also, if the PCs learn about how much more detrimental Shar's death would be than Mystra's, they may decide not to go through with it.
I don't think the cosmos would be affected. Many deities have been slain in many different worlds, without having an impact on any others. Shar isn't tied to the cosmos -- she is just a little more widespread than most other Realms deities. Her death would affect each world the same as the death of any other single deity would -- the fact that it's happening in multiple places at once is irrelevant, because those places aren't connected to each other.
If each world is a glass of water sitting on an aluminum table, dropping pebbles into each glass isn't going to affect the table. Even breaking all of the glasses won't affect the table itself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Apr 2011 18:28:03 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 18:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think the cosmos would be affected. Many deities have been slain in many different worlds, without having an impact on any others. Shar isn't tied to the cosmos -- she is just a little more widespread than most other Realms deities. Her death would affect each world the same as the death of any other single deity would -- the fact that it's happening in multiple places at once is irrelevant, because those places aren't connected to each other.
If each world is a glass of water sitting on an aluminum table, dropping pebbles into each glass isn't going to affect the table. Even breaking all of the glasses won't affect the table itself.
Good point, Wooly. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 01:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Whoa, the implications of the death of a greater deity such as Shar are huge. First her portfolios would attract alot of divine attention. Then her domain in the Shadowplane (if it survived her destruction) would be up for grabs aswell. Her secert clergy would likely fall into disarray too.
If you take what Paul Kemp wrote in his Cale series as cannon (which I think is meant to be) then Shar death could actually be more catastrophic than Mystra's. While Mystra is a deity only tied to the Realms, Shar's influence spread to several worlds in the multiverse (one of which is visited in the Twilight War trilogy). So I think that her death might actually hurt the cosmos. If I were to think of a way to have PCs accomplish the task, I would go with making the gather and assemble the pieces to an artifact that can trap the soul of a deity in the body of one of its avatars. Not that even defeating one of Shar's avatars would be easy (see F&P 3e, page 60). It would definitely be an epic campaign. Also, if the PCs learn about how much more detrimental Shar's death would be than Mystra's, they may decide not to go through with it.
I don't think the cosmos would be affected. Many deities have been slain in many different worlds, without having an impact on any others. Shar isn't tied to the cosmos -- she is just a little more widespread than most other Realms deities. Her death would affect each world the same as the death of any other single deity would -- the fact that it's happening in multiple places at once is irrelevant, because those places aren't connected to each other.
If each world is a glass of water sitting on an aluminum table, dropping pebbles into each glass isn't going to affect the table. Even breaking all of the glasses won't affect the table itself.
Wooly has the right of it.
It's important to relate the relationship of deities to Realmspace, with a suitable degree of appreciation for their place and power to a specific world as well.
It isn't always easy to assume that one singular deity's life would impact upon the entire multiverse... unless that deity truly had a multispheric scope. And as far as I know, Shar doesn't.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 05:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That wouldn't be much different from killing Lolth- she also has influence on multiple worlds, but killing her would simply affect her followers on those worlds, and perhaps cause some upheaval among the gods of those worlds, Shar is no different, and both are greater deities.
Sigh...and Lolth used to be nothing more than a Demon/Lesser God.
Times...they are a'changin' |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 20:11:29
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I love the idea of killing off Shar!
Ibrandul FTW, Mystra --> to NN as she was pre ToT, Mask say hello to some new portfolio elements.
Maybe... Cyric get's knocked down to Lesser/Intermediate as he loses Illusion/Trickery to a renewed Leira whose illusions aided the slayers of Shar get to Shar in the first place, thus revealing the greatest deception of all time, her own death and plan to strike at the enemy no one ever knew she had, Shar!
Oh, and since I'm fond of Waukeen, one of the tasks PC's would have to go through would involve Grazzt and they would have the chance to find and free the Merchant goddess too... |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 22:54:13
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by killing Shar you're doing her a favor, if you hate her so much keep her alive and suffering
cave lizard Ibrandul is not interesting at all |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 23:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
cave lizard Ibrandul is not interesting at all
His enemies are numerous, it seems. No wonder they eliminated him; became too dangerous obviously. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 08:48:29
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It'll be fine if she is killed, so long as she kills Cyric first. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 12:09:19
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| Death to Shar! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 06:42:54
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If there's anyone more "deserving" to kill Shar, it's Mystra or Mask. Mystra, for revenge, and so that she could take over the Shadow Weave. Or Mask, so that...he could regain what he had lost to her, which was practically everything. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 08:31:31
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Selune. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 10:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Selune.
Well, she's welcome to help Mask and Mystra.
I'm not sure though if the Realms is "ready" for her death. People still feel the sting of the Spellplague. Who knows what Shar's death would bring?! Shadowplague? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 10:38:26
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They already got the Abyssalplague coming...
Maybe the Shadowplague will be the 5E RSE/D&DSE... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 18:19:09
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| -Yeah, I never really liked the Shar-Mystra "rivalry" that was stressed for the better part of 3e. I mean, sure, Mystra and Shar are bitter enemies, but Shar's primary enemy is Selûne, and that rivalry got a lot less storyline time than the Shar-Mystra one. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The death of Shar
