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chamber101
Seeker
57 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 22:10:28
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Hey guys, can I run something by you?
Tell me your thoughts and ideas regarding what would happen if Shar was destroyed!
Namely; what would happen to her portfolio, the shadowweave, the plane of shadow, her followers and what the other gods' actions might be etc.
I am talking pre SP so 3.5ed 1373DR.
Thanks for your wisdom.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 22:17:15
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The Shadowplague?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 23:23:48
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Much rejoicing in the streets by Realms fans? 
Seriously though, I'd imagine there'd be a rash of violence or chaos in some cities as the hidden sects of Shar, without their goddesses backing, had to find someone else to worship. Lots of Shar's worshipers seem to be a little unhinged so I'd imagine they take their goddesses death badly. I'm not sure if the Shadow Weave would be affected, or if by that point it was so tied to the Weave itself that it is self sustaining. I imagine Mask would grab some of her portfolio for himself, and the other evil deities would scramble around for anything left over. |
Edited by - idilippy on 13 Apr 2011 23:24:20 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 23:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Shadowplague?
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 03:39:53
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| I'd be willing to bet even money that some of her followers would switch to Lolth or perhaps Mask or Vaerhaun. (Since we're talking pre-death of him and Eilistraee, too.) Loviatar might try to take the Loss part of her portfolio, (another form of pain, after all) and I'm sure that other gods might squabble over her domains as well. That said, much of Faerun would rejoice, and I could certainly see a new resurgence in the followings of Selune and Mystra, as folk would see Shar's death as proof that her foes are greater, and might wish to join. There might also be a few sects that refuse to believe she was dead, and form a "dead god" cult in her name. Perhaps even seek to bring her back. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 04:16:09
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| -Depends on what way she died. Remember, Shar seeks to cease existence, period. She's nihilistic, as are her hardcore, dedicated followers. She wants to die, the last thing to perish after bringing an end to everything else beforehand. Same thing with those hardcore, dedicated followers- just not those (for a lack of better words) "emo" followers that we've seen of hers, who worship (or think they do, anyway) her because they've been wronged by whomever, and they're all temporarily angsty. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 05:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Funny, I thought ALL her followers were "emo". At least the ones who do more than lip service.
-Nah, only those people that don't really understand the nihilism they're embracing, I'd call "emo". Or, my definition of it, anyway. I view "emo" as a negative thing, akin to being a little pouty kid that hates their mom/dad while they're having a temper tantrum because they couldn't get their way, but don't actually, truly mean it, though. Whereas embracing moral nihilism, or existential nihilism as a personal philosophy, that entails that you understand it, live according to it, and so on. And, that's fine- that means you're intelligent enough to understand and embrace a philosophy. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 06:01:23
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Let's not get judgmental here as regards philosophical systems. Nihilism is an aspect of certain philosophic systems, and it does take a bit of mental processing power to understand it. It's sort of like accepting one's own mortality, which is an extremely mature thing.
Also, re: the OP. Maybe Shar dying means she *WINS.* Wouldn't that be unsettling?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 06:25:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let's not get judgmental here as regards philosophical systems. Nihilism is an aspect of certain philosophic systems ...
Indeed. And as Kierkegaard has shown us, there can be a certain "upswing" to this aspect as well. Far too often, I see many people almost always assuming that Nietzsche's complex Nihilism-form is "the be-all, end-all" on the subject. There is so much more to it, than just that.
quote:
Also, re: the OP. Maybe Shar dying means she *WINS.* Wouldn't that be unsettling?
The ultimate "inanity of life?" Certainly. Especially if her death also means ending the "inanity of all reality" as well. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 06:37:10
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| I think there is a difference between "accepting" one's own mortality, and believing that the entire universe is doomed to oblivion and is pointless, which is basically what nihilism is all about- the pointlessness of a finite existance. It's like saying that if everything is going to die anyway, why even care? Why not help it along? I understand the idea, I just think it's pretty self-centered and self-defeating. I remember a little of the discussions from English on Nietche(sp? Gods, but I hate some of these Germanic names.... Not enough frikkin vowels.) and his "god is dead" philosophy. I wanted to throw the book out of annoyance at the concept. Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I simply can't look at the world and say, "Oh, woe, the world will end someday, I'm going to die..." The Realms multiverse is all about balance, as far as I can see, and Shar's desire to end it tilts that balance in a pretty big way. There are enough things to worry about in day-to-day life in the Realms, that most people would not even bother to think about when of if they will die or the world will be destroyed by some whacko goddess who wants to die. For one thing, they have families to care for, which is a more pressing matter for most folks in the Realms, or anywhere else. Why does Shar (and by extension her followers) have to take everyone else with her? Her followers are seemingly stuck in that incredibly selfish stage of development where it's all about THEM and what THEY want, or what was done to them. There's a phrase for people like that- "get over yourself, and move on." If she wants to die, I know of a god/sword who could arrange that.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 06:44:04
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| Umm...Actually don't you think that killing Shar is a major event like death of Mystra? Most likely in my opinion is that there will be someone who will take responsibility of her portfolio. It may be new god or, worse of all, Selune absorbs it to balance it out, becoming something new. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 09:06:04
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Hmph... intriguing notion....
Selune absorbing Shar's residual power... makes me wonder now if they weren't once one to begin with....
What happens when a god gets multiple personality disorder? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 10:25:34
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A pantheon?
Shar's dogma is really about escaping pain. The followers want to be euthanized in a way.
Afaik, existential nihilism is about refusing to blame some higher power and accepting responsibility, making your own meaning in life. What's unintelligent in that? |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 10:26:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I think there is a difference between "accepting" one's own mortality, and believing that the entire universe is doomed to oblivion and is pointless, which is basically what nihilism is all about- the pointlessness of a finite existance. It's like saying that if everything is going to die anyway, why even care? Why not help it along? I understand the idea, I just think it's pretty self-centered and self-defeating. I remember a little of the discussions from English on Nietche(sp? Gods, but I hate some of these Germanic names.... Not enough frikkin vowels.) and his "god is dead" philosophy. I wanted to throw the book out of annoyance at the concept. [...]
As others have pointed out, there's more to it than that. But I can understand your annoyance.
Here is something to brighten you up:
"God is dead" - Nietzsche, 1883
"Nietzsche is dead" - God, 1900
By the way, English is a Germanic language as well...
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Edited by - Thieran on 14 Apr 2011 12:48:39 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 11:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by chamber101
Hey guys, can I run something by you?
Tell me your thoughts and ideas regarding what would happen if Shar was destroyed!
Namely; what would happen to her portfolio, the shadowweave, the plane of shadow, her followers and what the other gods' actions might be etc.
I am talking pre SP so 3.5ed 1373DR.
Thanks for your wisdom.
Mystra take shadow wave and reborn as Mystryl.
Mask take some of her portfolio (Night, Secrets) and become a greater deity.
Ibrandul is back (Caverns, The Underdark and perhaps Dark, Dungeons).
All this is a scheme orchestrate by ... Leira, so she's back as intermediate deity (she take Forgetfulness and Loss).  |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 11:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Shadowplague?
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 14:20:47
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Funny. I've been thinking of running some sort of super "kill-Shar-to-deep-six-the-Spellplague" campaign. Sort of a one-off, build the most ridiculously over-powered characters you (legally) can, and set off to do something heroic. So all of this "what would happen next" stuff is really interesting.
For my part, I'd say there's at least even odds that the shadow weave collapses instantly without Shar supporting it. Even if it doesn't, I think it's only a matter of time (a few years at most) before it falls apart on its own, and that's assuming that Mystra and/or Corellon don't actively go after it.
Nothing would happen to the (demi)plane of shadow, as that's totally unrelated to Shar.
I do think that the deific in-fighting for her portfolios would be fierce though; Shar's one of the very top tier gods, and there's a lot to grab. I kind of like the idea of Ilbrandul coming back; since she was the one to kill him originally, and he's still got followers, it kind of makes sense. Mask would definitely grab some. Mystra would either destroy the shadow weave or let it decay, I doubt she'd take it, as it's anathama to her.
You know, it might be interesting to ask Ed what his thoughts on the matter are as well. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 15:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Umm...Actually don't you think that killing Shar is a major event like death of Mystra? Most likely in my opinion is that there will be someone who will take responsibility of her portfolio. It may be new god or, worse of all, Selune absorbs it to balance it out, becoming something new.
Considering that she is also a greater deity, and one of the original (according to Faiths and Pantheons [3e]) Realmsian deities, and evidently a powerful deity in other planes (as per the Ervis Cale series), yes, I think that it would still be a Realms-shaking event. Possibly just as catastrophic, with results similar to the death of Aroden in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting.quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Mystra take shadow wave and reborn as Mystryl.
Mask take some of her portfolio (Night, Secrets) and become a greater deity.
Ibrandul is back (Caverns, The Underdark and perhaps Dark, Dungeons).
All this is a scheme orchestrate by ... Leira, so she's back as intermediate deity (she take Forgetfulness and Loss).
I think these are also good possible results. With the rebirth of Mystryl, I would like to see the return of the availability of 10th level spells to characters level 21+ (maybe using the magister class from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 16:11:03
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| Hey Hawkins, I just noticed you dropped the "the DM" from your nick. When'd that happen? (ie: just how un-observant have I been? ) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 16:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Hey Hawkins, I just noticed you dropped the "the DM" from your nick. When'd that happen? (ie: just how un-observant have I been? )
Sometime last week. The only reason that was tagged on in the beginning is because I had assumed the just "Hawkins" had been taken when I created my account. I just recently got around to asking Alaundo to change it. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 16:23:39
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@Sage: I think you will definitely be intrigued by a significant aspect of Shadowbane, particularly a certain character who embodies--physically and psychologically--some of these concepts.
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I think there is a difference between "accepting" one's own mortality, and believing that the entire universe is doomed to oblivion and is pointless, which is basically what nihilism is all about- the pointlessness of a finite existance. It's like saying that if everything is going to die anyway, why even care? Why not help it along? I understand the idea, I just think it's pretty self-centered and self-defeating.
As others have pointed out, there's more to it than that. But I can understand your annoyance.
Indeed, it is more complex, but it's beyond the scope of this thread (and relevance) to get into Real World philosophical systems like Nietzsche's. I will address it briefly and translate that the entire thrust of his argument is, at least IMO, about having one's own source of rules and regulations about morality, rather than relying on some divine power to give them to you.
(And really, I don't know why you need a god or any kind of religious system to be a good, moral, respectful person, so in that respect I find some worth in his argument.)
This is definitely at odds with a deity of nihilism, as the whole system espouses "no deity necessary." Sharran dogma is much more simplistic than Nietzsche's philosophy, seeming to state "Doom is coming--do your part." The Lady of Loss consoles the depressed, dejected, and doomed, and turns their anguish to her own malicious ends. She is definitely evil and her church is definitely evil, but despair is not in itself inherently evil--it's more like a disease (or as Kierkegaard puts it, "the sickness unto death") from which people suffer, making them perfect targets for Shar. It's up to the truly heroic to bring hope to the hopeless, and that's the only way I see of truly vanquishing Shar.
Paul Kemp's Twilight War series (particularly in re: Rivalen) has some great discussion on this topic, and as I mentioned to Sage, I go into some of it in Shadowbane.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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chamber101
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 01:01:29
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Thanks for the replies so far.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Mystra would either destroy the shadow weave or let it decay, I doubt she'd take it, as it's anathama to her.
I cant remember where I read it but Mystra doesn't want the shadow weave destroying but wants to absorb and control it herself!
The idea I am playing with (and about to execute) is a plan involving Cyric and Mask murdering Shar (much like Mystras murder in the 4.0 switch). I have introduced a macguffin (The Tome of Whispers) that is the whole key to weakening her enough for them to swoop in and kill her. Both Cyric and Mask are manipulating the PCs into causing her weakness.
We've been playing epic for a couple of years now (average level 27) and I wanted to introduce a real campaign world shaker. Of course, I'm going to have to put in alot of work to re-shape elements of my Realms once she has been destroyed and thats the reason for my OP.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 06:31:46
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I suggest that whatever "replaces" Shar be far worse and vile!
I did something very similar some time ago for a Realms campaign I ran for many years...in the end the loss of Shar is something that good people wished hadn't happened!
"Better the evil you know..."
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 15:18:47
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| I don't like the idea of a replacement for Shar. But getting rid of her is a good thing. Vivat for Ibrandul... and patching a dark part onto Selune :D |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 15:41:25
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| Shar should stay as a nemesis for Karsus... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 15:44:59
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Karsus isn't important enough to warrant such a nemesis. (IMO, of course. I know you probably feel differently  ) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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chamber101
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 16:05:12
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| dont forget, my question is based around 1373DR so before all the spellplague nonsense. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 16:31:33
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shadevari could react to the death of Shar
or
Dendaer the Night Serpent |
z455t |
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Topic |
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The death of Shar
