| Author |
 Topic  |
|
DourdenAdam
Acolyte
8 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 02:01:35
|
|
Alright, I was simply wondering I was looking through a forgotten realms wiki and I noticed the current God of Death is Kelemvor. However, revenants are created by the Raven Queen. So, I was wondering how if in the realms there is no raven Queen - that I could find at least - there are revenants. I kind of would like to understand this since I am in the process of writing a story about two revenants.
|
|
|
Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
744 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 02:26:18
|
The most likely sources of revanants in the post-Spellplague realms - at least to my knowledge - would be the following:
- Bane
- Cyric
- Shar
- necromantic energies of the cosmos, including deliberate magic
Kelemvor is specifically anti-undead, so he and his followers would only destroy them, not create them. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
 |
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 02:40:15
|
Revenants are not only created by the Raven Queen (so much is obvious, purely because there have been many revenants in the Realms and all of the other D&D worlds before there was a Raven Queen - - and because I happen to know the designer who created revenants for the game, and he'd never heard of the Raven Queen  ).
love,
THO |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 04:38:24
|
In the realms.... its likely to be arcane created curses slingers that use them or left overs from when Cyric and Myrkul held the torliet of death.....
and on top of that, His lordship the ancient god, known as the scribe of the damned Lord Jergal would make such creatures... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 06:49:35
|
| I'm unfamiliar with this Raven Queen stuff as well. Where is it described, DA? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 07:11:20
|
It is a 4e reconstruction I think. They are simply updating for the current generic setting that Revs are created by the Raven Queen.
Such is not the case in the Realms as The Lady Hooded One (aka Herald of Ed Greenwood) has already noted. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 07:57:46
|
The Raven Queen's a points of light deity. She's more or less meant to be a female version of Kelemvor; a neutral goddess of death with a dark is not evil bent to her. She's more undead friendly and more powerhungry than Kelemvor, but not sadistically evil like other gods of death.
So. Basic point being that revenants in the realms, or any d&d setting prior to 4e core, are not the creation of the Raven Queen. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 08:20:40
|
I personally like the story in which a revenant is self-created--i.e., a mortal that dies with "unfinished business" as it were, and comes back into its body in order to get the job done. (That I feel this way is probably obvious to anyone who has read my novel Ghostwalker.)
If the core 4e revenants are mostly flavored to be creations of a particular goddess (the Raven Queen) who doesn't exist in the Realms, then I think a good follow-on question is whether revenants in the Realms are necessarily the creation of a deity or not. I think the best answer is that revenants can and do spring from any number of sources, be they divine, magical, or deeply personal.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 08:27:56
|
Ah, a new (4E) lesser death goddess with dominion over revenants. That's actually lore I don't mind.
[Edit: Thanx DD, CoA, ESdB, and S.] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Mar 2011 09:13:49 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 09:50:29
|
Well, in PoL she is very much a greater goddess; she's also the deity of winter among other things. I've never cared for her, myself. Too much focus given with no character added. She's played up as a manipulative force among the gods striving for even greater power and capable of attaining it with little explaination how or why; she got dominion over winter by helping put down a rebellion caused by the previous winter goddess. As in, she didn't steal the dominion from the vanquished deity, she demanded it as pay from the other gods for her assistance, with no indication for how vital that assistance was, or how/why a(to that point) minor deity could provide assistance that other gods couldn't. The shadar-kai call her patron for creating their race; she rules the shadowfell and helped the humans that fled there adapt to their new home, demanding honor(not necessarily worship) from all of them.
It really does astound me that while I like the concept of a neutral death god, WotC has yet to pull it off well.
|
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 09:54:40
|
She seems to be an easy import into a pre-4E Realms setting.
I could just claim she's an ambitious little succubus-fiend thing who somehow procured entry-level divine rank, perhaps even by betraying a winter/death deity from some foreign pantheon. (Or better yet, through seducing, corrupting, and betraying a misguided lonely springtime/druid deity instead, lol.) Once evil jams a foot (or tentacle) into the door there's just no limit to DM happiness! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Mar 2011 10:46:11 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 10:09:17
|
| That's actually a growing complaint about her character among the 4e fanbase; that as more information is released about her she seems more evil (to the point of being discribed as "cackling mad" on the character derailment page on tvtropes). Really just getting more ambitious. She's not bad in concept but the execution is lacking. I do like her rivalry with Orcus; she's almost more his greatest enemy than Demogorgon is, and it comes off well enough. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 12:33:58
|
I incorporated the Raven Queen into my Realms as a Lesser deity and Kelemvor's consort. She holds off Shar's expansion of the Shadowfell, gives life to Revanents, and is a deity that those with the Shadow-source can worship without turning totally to evil.
She pretty much took over Velsharoon's niche in the Realms Pantheon. I also like the idea of Revanents coming back to finish buisness. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 12:54:08
|
| I do admit the entire raven/revenant theme has been overplayed to the point of eye-rolling boredom. We've all seen the movies, TV shows, and movie and TV show clones and spinoffs; it's become standard Hollywood trope. I think I'll hold off on this idea, or at the least only import another (any other) existing fiend-seductress into the role of Kelemvor's consort/minion (so long as "raven" or "crow" isn't any part of her name or title). Hell, even a big nasty abyssal genasi-cambion named Corvus Blackwing (charged by Kelemvor to enforce vengeance for the dead) would still be a moderate improvement, and even that's kinda corny. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Mar 2011 12:58:05 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 13:46:48
|
| Part of what bugs me is the sex appeal aspect of it; we're talking about carion birds here. That's pretty high on the list of "things that are in no way, shape, or form sexy". If the Raven Queen took more aspects from Hel from norse myth(the whole, half alive, half dead, thing) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with her potrayal. Would still have a problem; as I said, she's pushed on us fairly hard - I'm actually pretty sure she has more paragon paths(prestige classes) dedicated to her than any other god- but she's given very little personality. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 14:58:19
|
The raven/revenant connection is an obvious one... Ravens have long been considered psychopomps, those critters that guide the souls of the dead into the afterlife. Since revenants are undead, it's a pretty obvious connection -- so obvious as to be something of a cliché, thinks I.
I'm not familiar with the Raven Queen, since I ignore pretty much everything associated with 4E. I do have to say, though, that with a couple of exceptions, it seems very limiting, to me, for a deity to focus on one type of undead. Vampires and liches are one thing -- they're intelligent, powerful undead, and while they're not exactly common, they're the most common flavors of intelligent undead and can have quite the impact on their environs for a long period of time. With the "mission"-focused aspect of revenants (unless this has changed in 4E), I don't see them having a need for a deity. In fact, I readily think that in some cases, they might still venerate their prior deities.
I do like the idea of using her as a demon who is a would-be goddess, but on the flipside, the focus on ravens doesn't work for that. Other than the psychopomp and carrion-eater aspects of ravens, there's just not much potential for evil there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 15:11:05
|
The Raven Queen, for the most part, isn't a deity of undeath. She's a deity of death, much like Kelemvor, and embraces it as a natural part of life. Orcus occupies the role as lord of the undead; everyone who attains lichhood, for instance, is bound to him and he can destroy them on a whim. The Raven Queen is more the deity of those who walk the line between life and death. Again, I cannot stress this enough, the Raven Queen is not evil, or at least isn't meant to be.
Of course, this all applies only to PoL. Also, I say all of this, but I"m no where near an expert on the Revan Queen, and I never did get around to reading up on the revenants. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 16:49:24
|
| Of death gods in FR, I like Kiaransalee. Though I wish she is more neutral than evil. Plus, she's probably the main creator of revenants in the Realms. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 16:50:59
|
Well, hey ... sometimes you gotta swallow some popular trope. It's what drives markets.
PS: Now I'm thinkin' Goliax "The Kettle Face", an oversized hungry pit fiend with a vulture's head who offers a special "deal" to the dead; they gain one last chance to wreak vengeance upon the living who have wronged them, he gains their eternal souls. Kelemvor reluctantly tolerates him, seeing this as a necessary part of the natural order. Much less corny than cheesy Corvus Blackwing. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Mar 2011 16:52:10 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 17:03:56
|
| For my realms games I generally tolerate(though modify) Kelemvor. Like I said, I like the idea of non-evil death gods. In my homebrew, however, I have several death gods(I'm a strong believer in redundency) who span the spectrum, though none are out and out good. Then again, none of my homebrew gods are out and out good. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 17:10:38
|
| Not even Selûne, Tymora, Lathander, Tyr, and Torm? Surely your paladin gods must remain unsullied, CoA? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 17:19:58
|
| What about the Seldarine and Fey pantheon?!?!? |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:06:11
|
Again, this isn't my realms, this is my homebrew setting. My elven gods tend to be on either end of the neutral spectrum; chaotic and lawful, depending on the type of elf. My paladin inclined gods tend to be hardlined lawful neutral.
Tyr in my homebrew is a dwarven war god. I don't use Selune, Tymora, Lathander, or Torm. Corellon is, at least among my "high elves", closely associated with Bahamut to the point of being merged with him(in myth, not in reality). My high elves are heavily based off imperial china, and they believe Corellon to be their first emperor ascended to the heavens. Bahamut himself is probably one of the closer to good gods I use, but still more neutral. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:09:04
|
| I love DMs who allow LN paladins! Er, platonically of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:14:17
|
| I actually use the 4e model of allowing paladins to any god. I used to be deadset against it, but the love of a not-so-good woman changed my mind. Still, the "gods of paladins" that occupy similar roles as Torm are more lawful neutral than lawful good, and most paladins likewise as a result. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
DourdenAdam
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 21:19:47
|
Alright, that all makes a lot of sense. Now, I noticed while reading about the Fugue Plain (I believe that is how it's spelt.) That Kelemvor allows devils (it used a beezil? I think was the word.) that allow the souls a chance to come back as demons. However, what rank are the demons he allows to come and try and corrupt the people into demons?
As well, would it be a twist or good idea to maybe make the revenants in my story some people that took that deal and are brought back due to the demon. But, not as demons but as well revenants? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:10:50
|
Stories do not have to follow 'the rules' (and often don't). Rules are meant to be broken, and in RPG settings, all the more so ("rule zero").
This reminds me a bit of the 'mortals vs gods' thread - characters in novels (and in-game) are 'heroes', and therefor have something special about them. They were born to break the rules.
Rather then ask us how your Revenants can be possible, why not create an intriguing story that tells US why? If your Revenants were just like all the others, then they wouldn't be all that interesting, would they?
EDIT: Just read that article on her in Dungeon Mag - Apparently one of her titles is 'the Lady of Fates'. 
Since their is a canon goddess 'Fate' down in Zakhara (ya know... The Land of Fate), it would be fairly easy to give her a Torillian presence, in not a Faerûnian one. Since Kelemvor has final say over ALL 'the dead' in Realmspace (including over other local death-gods, like Anubis and Yen-Wang-Yeh), its easy to just say her 'unknown' status is due, in part, to her having to take a back seat to the Dusk Lord within Realmspace (whomever happens to hold that title at the time).
It would be interesting (if this were factual rather then just supposition) to know what sort of association she has with Jergal. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 27 Mar 2011 23:28:45 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:38:44
|
interesting as that may be Markustay, I'm sure the NDA locked knowledge on Jergal's origins would be more interesting.....
mmmm intersting, so there is a fate goddess in zakhara... interesting..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 16:18:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I actually use the 4e model of allowing paladins to any god. I used to be deadset against it, but the love of a not-so-good woman changed my mind. Still, the "gods of paladins" that occupy similar roles as Torm are more lawful neutral than lawful good, and most paladins likewise as a result.
I've had this opinion even in the hey-day of v3.5. I understand why paladins were required the LG alignment, but it's not realisitc to me as a Paladin is a holy warrior devoted to a specific ideal, god, and code. Whether this code is righetous or unholy is another matter altogether. As if Evil deities didn't have unholy warriors doing their bidding prior to 4E.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not familiar with the Raven Queen, since I ignore pretty much everything associated with 4E. I do have to say, though, that with a couple of exceptions, it seems very limiting, to me, for a deity to focus on one type of undead. Vampires and liches are one thing -- they're intelligent, powerful undead, and while they're not exactly common, they're the most common flavors of intelligent undead and can have quite the impact on their environs for a long period of time. With the "mission"-focused aspect of revenants (unless this has changed in 4E), I don't see them having a need for a deity. In fact, I readily think that in some cases, they might still venerate their prior deities.
I don't think she only focuses on 1 type of undead (aka Revenants) but I think she has a closer affinity for them because they're not exclusively Evil. I'm sure she's venerated by non-evil undead creatures such as Baelnorns (non-FR ones anyways) as well as Arch Liches (it is an Epic Destiny for PCs) and non-evil Necromancers and Nethermancers (previewed in the Heroes of Shadow supplement) as well as other "shadowy" non-evil characters.
This supplement should help flesh-out (pun intended) her more devoted followers, as well as those she favores and those she doesn't. This is why I enjoy having her in my Realms. Kelemvor wouldn't stand for Revenants even if he does Arch Liches and Baelnorns. And with the addition of the Shade race for PCs and the Vampire class for PCs, well they can't all be evil right? So who would a non-evil Vampire worship if he's so inclined to do so? I'd say it wouldn't be Kelemvore and certainily wouldn't be a good-aligned deity like Torm, Ilmater, or Chauntea. Most likely, they're best bet is the Raven Queen. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 28 Mar 2011 16:20:29 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
The Raven Queen...
