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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 16:47:29
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[1E had anti-paladins serving CE deities (first appearing in Dragon #39) and paladins of all the other alignments (in Dragon #106, I think), alas they disappointingly weren't printed in 1E UA nor any other "official" rules, though most AD&D groups homebrewed them (often for DM use only). They never appeared as a proper class in 2E, though oddly there were a few 2E modules with anti-paladin NPCs. Dragon #312 reintroduced anti-paladins into 3.5E, though many groups were already using blackguards and avengers. Like you, CoA and Diffan, I actually prefer the 4E approach to paladins, though not quite as indiscriminately across the pantheon.]
Beyond being imposed onto revenants, what functions or portfolios does Raven Queen have? Sure her resume says something like "lesser (not-really-evil) goddess of death" but does she serve any actual purpose or is she just redundant and pretty-looking? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2011 17:17:05 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 17:32:48
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The name of the god of death is long forgotten, but she is called the Raven Queen. She is the spinner of fate and the patron of winter. She marks the end of each mortal life, and mourners call upon her during funeral rites, in the hope that she will guard the departed from the curse of undeath. She expects her followers to:
- Hold no pity for those who suffer and die, for death is the natural end of life.
- Bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains of fate. As the instrument of the Raven Queen, you must punish hubris where you find it.
- Watch for the cults of Orcus and stamp them out whenever they arise. The Demon Prince of the Undead seeks to claim the Raven Queen’s throne.
I don't really use her as the Winter goddess, as thats Auril's domain, but I do have her fight against Auril's domain for it. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 17:50:50
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Redundant goddess of death + Redundant goddess of winter + Unneeded goddess of revenants = 0 points.
Divine enemy of Orcus = 1 point. One could say this, too, is a redundant function since Orcus has many enemies, but hey, Orcus has many enemies. Is there more to this conflict? If it's only because "Orcus seeks to claim the throne" then I say let him have it and get rid of this puny Raven girl.
I must say that "hold no pity for those who suffer", "bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains", etc certainly seems like a dogma (or at least a way of propagating it) which quite definitely falls within my definition of evil.
lol, I dinna find this character appealing anymore. Unless one needs a conveniently evil little goddess for the PCs to kill. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 18:23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't think she only focuses on 1 type of undead (aka Revenants) but I think she has a closer affinity for them because they're not exclusively Evil. I'm sure she's venerated by non-evil undead creatures such as Baelnorns (non-FR ones anyways) as well as Arch Liches (it is an Epic Destiny for PCs) and non-evil Necromancers and Nethermancers (previewed in the Heroes of Shadow supplement) as well as other "shadowy" non-evil characters.
Well, as I have admitted, I'm quite unfamiliar with her. 
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
This supplement should help flesh-out (pun intended) her more devoted followers, as well as those she favores and those she doesn't. This is why I enjoy having her in my Realms. Kelemvor wouldn't stand for Revenants even if he does Arch Liches and Baelnorns. And with the addition of the Shade race for PCs and the Vampire class for PCs, well they can't all be evil right? So who would a non-evil Vampire worship if he's so inclined to do so? I'd say it wouldn't be Kelemvore and certainily wouldn't be a good-aligned deity like Torm, Ilmater, or Chauntea. Most likely, they're best bet is the Raven Queen.
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:18:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Redundant goddess of death + Redundant goddess of winter + Unneeded goddess of revenants = 0 points.
Divine enemy of Orcus = 1 point. One could say this, too, is a redundant function since Orcus has many enemies, but hey, Orcus has many enemies. Is there more to this conflict? If it's only because "Orcus seeks to claim the throne" then I say let him have it and get rid of this puny Raven girl.
I must say that "hold no pity for those who suffer", "bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains", etc certainly seems like a dogma (or at least a way of propagating it) which quite definitely falls within my definition of evil.
lol, I dinna find this character appealing anymore. Unless one needs a conveniently evil little goddess for the PCs to kill.
All well and good, as I do most of the fluff myself and make the deity what I feel adds best to my own Realms. I've found the whole evil-undead = BBEG thing so overredundant and cliche to make my eyes rolling. The whole Grim Reaper thing is boring and over-played that both Vecna, Nerull, and Velsharoon could all be the same darn deity and no would would ever really notice.
At least the Raven Queen has a different spin on her take of Undead and doesn't plan on using them to dominate the planet like most other Undead deities and Demons. In addition, I actually like the Raven aspect as they're historically known to be the Messengers of the dead and not just scary, carrior birds. I'm just saying, people can make it what they will.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker.
But what if the Revenant finishes his/her mission and now wants a new chance at their life? Or is fearful of "true" death and wants to stay in the undead state of a Revenant? I'm sure Kelemvorites would have a problem then to be sure. Could be a good sub-plot for a PC....hmmm.... |
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Edited by - Diffan on 28 Mar 2011 19:20:55 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:31:42
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| Thing is, she isn't redundant in 4e core. She is the death god. She killed the last one before mortal memory. There is no other. The winter goddess is also dead, which is how Raven Queen got the portfolio to begin with. Now, she'd be three kinds of redundant in the realms, but within Points of Light, she's it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 21:10:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Redundant goddess of death + Redundant goddess of winter + Unneeded goddess of revenants = 0 points.
Divine enemy of Orcus = 1 point. One could say this, too, is a redundant function since Orcus has many enemies, but hey, Orcus has many enemies. Is there more to this conflict? If it's only because "Orcus seeks to claim the throne" then I say let him have it and get rid of this puny Raven girl.
I must say that "hold no pity for those who suffer", "bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains", etc certainly seems like a dogma (or at least a way of propagating it) which quite definitely falls within my definition of evil.
lol, I dinna find this character appealing anymore. Unless one needs a conveniently evil little goddess for the PCs to kill.
BUUUUUUT, as a deity within the sub-setting Zakhara, she fits just fine. Her portfolio of 'Fate' fits there nicely, they have no 'Winter Deity' (for obvious reasons), and they also (strangely) have no death god (I suppose their concept of 'fate' alleviates the need for one).
Or, conversely, they may have 'lost' their death-god when the faith of Thasmudyan was chased from the mainland (CBoN).
Either way, we have several precedents within canon lore of redundant deities - usually, but not always, within sub-settings - so if someone wanted to use the Raven Queen, without violating too much FR canon, just stick her in a corner somewhere, like Zahara. That would be pre-SP (Spellplague), and now in the new, anything-goes world of 4e, DMs can say whatever they want. With Ao 'gone missing', and the great Cosmic Order being realigned, perhaps the Raven Queen has finally decided to make her big move in Realmspace, and start muscling-in on other god's portfolios.
If there is one thing we should have learned from the past three years and all that has 'gone down', it's that lore should NEVER be subtractive in nature, only additive. The Raven Queen may not be the best 'fit' for everyone's Realms, but better to have the option, then to have some source say "she absolutely, positively, has NO presence within Realmspace". That is subtractive-style lore, and only hurts the game and it's fans in the long run.
Besides, in another thread, Wooly already pointed-out the spell that anyone can get, which allows you to receive spells from ANY deity within ANY setting (except maybe Athas... and Eberron... OH! and Ravenloft LOL....). That means, unless you are in a closed Sphere/Plane, you can use any deity you want. For instance, Iuz the Old (Greyhawk) has a canon connection to The Realms, through Graz'zt; he is Graz'zt's offspirng with Iggwilv, and as we know, Graz'zt kidnapped Waukeen (amongst other things). That means although we have no lore connecting Iuz directly to FR, we do through a third a party, and that means he becomes canon as part of the greater 'D&D Over-setting'. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2011 21:26:25 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:29:59
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| Has everyone forgottenthat Kiaransalee is thenumber one enemy of Orcus? The only one who actually killed him? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker.
But what if the Revenant finishes his/her mission and now wants a new chance at their life? Or is fearful of "true" death and wants to stay in the undead state of a Revenant? I'm sure Kelemvorites would have a problem then to be sure. Could be a good sub-plot for a PC....hmmm....
Unless revenants have changed in 4E, they only stick around long enough to accomplish their mission (usually revenge for their murder). Once they've done the deed, they crumble away. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Has everyone forgottenthat Kiaransalee is thenumber one enemy of Orcus? The only one who actually killed him?
Kiaransalee-who? . Its like I have no memory of this deity what-so-ever!
And I think Markus has the right of it. I've felt she has a good niche in my Realmspace as Kelemvore's comsort and an Exarch of Fate and Death. So's also more tolerant of undead and unusal shadowy people. She's also seen some reverence from Netherese and Shades that have turned their back on Shar. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 22:55:45
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| Lol, let's not aply the Lady Penitent Trilogy here XD |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 23:08:00
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what is this LAdy Penitent TRiology you speak of?
I know of no such trilogy.. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 01:11:28
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Has everyone forgottenthat Kiaransalee is thenumber one enemy of Orcus? The only one who actually killed him?
I'm not so sure Orcus would see it that way. He did eventually triumph over that little "incident." |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 02:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Thing is, she isn't redundant in 4e core. She is the death god. She killed the last one before mortal memory. There is no other. The winter goddess is also dead, which is how Raven Queen got the portfolio to begin with. Now, she'd be three kinds of redundant in the realms, but within Points of Light, she's it.
There's a concept for you that would keep the jobs from killing each other: the portfolios of the dead gods going to the god of death, as opposed to going to the usurper. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 02:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not so sure Orcus would see it that way. He did eventually triumph over that little "incident."
Besides, whats a little 'death' between gods? Especially Undead Gods LOL. 
Hey! What if Kiaransalee IS the Raven Queen?
A little odd, I know, but only at the surface. They both have 'Feyish' origins (Elves... Fey... same difference), and it could just be her Faerûnian aspect was only worshiped by drow, who painted her as another drow (going back to my 'people see what they expect to see' theory again). The fact that the official canon surrounding her is making her seem more and more 'unstable' lends itself nicely to this (she's got a REAL BAD case of multiple-personality disorder). I can think of several canonical examples of faithful being of different alignments based upon what aspect of a god they worship. If they think she's a Drow (and she very well could be - deities can change their appearance), then they would assign drow-like traits to her.
Auril is another possibility, but she's already the Queen of air & Darkness (an Archfey), and she really isn't that important setting-wise to be giving her all this extra attention post-4e. Note that all of these beings (AND Lolth/Auraushnee) have Fey/Eleven origins - there are all sorts of cool connections we could make if we wanted to. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, Kelemvor might be inclined to aid the revenant... While Kelemvor does have a thing against undead, he also understand that some undead have a mission, and has his followers either ignore those undead or assist them in their mission. So a revenant might well find himself aided by Kelemvor, because that aid helps the revenant complete its mission and find a permanent death that much quicker.
But what if the Revenant finishes his/her mission and now wants a new chance at their life? Or is fearful of "true" death and wants to stay in the undead state of a Revenant? I'm sure Kelemvorites would have a problem then to be sure. Could be a good sub-plot for a PC....hmmm....
Unless revenants have changed in 4E, they only stick around long enough to accomplish their mission (usually revenge for their murder). Once they've done the deed, they crumble away.
HOWEVER, if the OP wants to write an interesting story about one (or two), would it not be MORE intriguing to have them complete their task... and NOT disappear?
Then they'd have to figure-out what they are really supposed to do (kinda like Quantum Leap). |
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2011 22:09:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 04:48:01
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I'm not disputing RQ's presence or merit in 4E/PoL ... it is written in canon, and thus so it must be.
I'm just sayin' that she isn't as easily imported into the "Auld Realms" as I'd initially thought. More correctly, she's an easy import but completely nonviable, serves no meaningful purpose. Besides, I personally think even my lame vulture-baatezu concept (earlier in this scroll) is better than (at least to me) the rather unexciting and overdone raven-psychopomp-messenger notion. There's plenty of hot succubus-fiend sorts who could body-double for RQ if I ever need her in some future module. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2011 04:50:20 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 09:34:17
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I was thinking of making the Raven Queen, Mystra herself, under the protection of Kelemvor. Her Revanents now seek the death of Cyric and Shar. |
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Edited by - Brimstone on 29 Mar 2011 09:38:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 22:12:58
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How about the Revenant of Midnight? 
With her divine essence shattered, that small portion of Mystra that was Midnight reverted to mortal form, and now must be safe-gaurded by Kelemvor (after all, Midnight had a mortal soul, and it had to go somewhere, right?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 23:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about the Revenant of Midnight?
With her divine essence shattered, that small portion of Mystra that was Midnight reverted to mortal form, and now must be safe-gaurded by Kelemvor (after all, Midnight had a mortal soul, and it had to go somewhere, right?)
Not if the nature of her soul changed upon ascension... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 01:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about the Revenant of Midnight?
With her divine essence shattered, that small portion of Mystra that was Midnight reverted to mortal form, and now must be safe-gaurded by Kelemvor (after all, Midnight had a mortal soul, and it had to go somewhere, right?)
Not if the nature of her soul changed upon ascension...
Indeed. We know so little about the dynamics of divine ascension in the Realms. I can't easily assume that it doesn't in some way impact upon the soul of a mortal who ascends... in order to accommodate the greater spiritual demands of an entire Material Plane. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 30 Mar 2011 01:39:22 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 04:48:54
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Not that a Weave Revenant bent on vengeance upon certain gods (and their agents) doesn't have merit ...
Besides, it's pretty well established (in each instance) that Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra (predictably) heroically sacrifice herself at the last instant to save the Weave. Yay, very Lawful Stupid and easily digested by the masses. None of them tries to snatch a fragment of concentrated Weave power and scuttle off, nor bothers with any sort of counterstrike against their attackers, nor calls upon allies (or enemies of their enemies), nor attempts any kind of negotiation or surrender or avoision or escape, and of course none of them is competent enough to properly defend themselves. They all wanna act like noble paladins and die, put a happy ending on the tragedy, be predictably goody-two-shoes. Given a choice, they'd probably refuse to be revenants and instead be glowy floaty little angel-ghosts who try to inspire hope and perserverance. Blegh, leave the paladin crap to Lathander, I say.
It'd be nice to see a Goddess of Magic actually be the powerful competent aggressor and force her enemies to cower and band together if they want a chance to survive. [/rant] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2011 04:52:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 05:05:01
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Oh, I know canonically (or should I say 'by the rules'?) Midnight died when she became Mystra - at that moment she became a spirit (energy), so she became something else, and Midnight no-longer existed.
I was just throwing some 'DM fodder' out there for anyone who wanted to use it. The half-mad Revenant of Midnight just sounds kinda cool IMHO.
And it's funny, you know - I am reading Egg of Phoenix for another thread, and doc has a Revenant after him as well (and its pretty humorous - the thing is constantly trying to strangle him, and he just ignores it). I wonder if the Revenant was ever able to follow him to FR? Can they do that? |
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2011 05:05:31 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 10:53:47
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I'm surprised no-one mentioned the original source of all revenancers, Hoar the Lord of Three Thunders. His clerics (Doombringers) used to be able to say a special Prayer of Revenance when a dying person begs for revenge on his or hers deathbed. There was a natural chance that a revenant would rise.
High level Doombringers could also cast the necromantic spell Revenance directly on a corpse killed by a sentient being. They could step back (they'd better not get in the way of the Revenant either) and watch the fun unfold. Hoar is such a fun diety to follow! Ironic or poetic justice is the best. Quinsareth in Davis' Bloodwalk is a nice canon example of a wandering doombringer, and my guess is Hoar had a chuckle or three with Walker from DeBie's Ghostwalker.
The Raven Queen has to much of a chilly thing going on with her for me to drop her into Zhakara, although I found the idea excellent. A revenant godling sound like a great epic story seed, especially if the PC's were responcable for the death of the revenant diety. Awesome ideas!
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 17:48:52
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| I'm surprised no-one mentioned cursts |
z455t |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 21:49:14
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Cursts are cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Raven Queen has to much of a chilly thing going on with her for me to drop her into Zhakara, although I found the idea excellent.
FR's got Auril, so she isn't needed in that capacity.
OR...., have her live in the mountaintops (just have her temples there). Lots of mountains in Zakhara, and I'm sure a few of the ranges are high-enough to be snow-capped. If you do that, you could even link her to the Wu Pi Te Shao (World Pillar) Mountains and the yakfolk.
If she's nuts, shouldn't she be the Raving Queen? |
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2011 21:50:15 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 04:56:03
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make her a pirmordial spirit....
like Bhaal being a primordial spirit on rage and bloodlust... oh wait, wotc hasnt stolen that idea yet.... bummer |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 16:16:33
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| lol, or just get rid of her and let the revenants take care of their own business as they've always done before. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:22:15
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So if every undead type is supposed to have a god now, I wonder who is the 'zombie god'.
He'd be the world's stupidest god. LOL
A 'Ghoul Lord' would be cool, but every time I picture a skeleton deity I think of This Guy.
On the other hand, This One is kinda cool. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2011 17:23:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:37:02
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| Why would mindless undead require deities? Though I do really like your (second) grim reaper pic, Markus. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:43:16
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Why would any undead?
It seems the whole problem of 'an afterlife' has already been resolved. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Raven Queen...
