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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 00:49:36
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Wouldn't it be prevalent in his clergy and faithful dueto what his dogma is amd what he stands for? Also, wouldn't it makes according to how most males felt, those that are in his clergy and faithful? Are there any female Vhaeraun clerics BTW?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 01:11:13
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No to the first two questions, for several reasons. First, his dogma has NOTHING to do with male sexuality. It is about Male EQUALITY with females, or even dominance. The opposite of Lolth. Second, he wishes for drow to return to the surface and regain their dominance there, which includes building their numbers- and therefore, breeding. Since drow traits are usually dominant over other elves, even by breeding with surface elves, they can still increase their numbers substantially. This would contradict the idea of male homosexuals being prevalent in his faith. In fact, none of the drow religions actually encourage this practice, as they strive mainly for power and most of them have increasing their numbers either in the Underdark (Lolth, Gaunadhar, Kiaransalee) or on the surface (Vaerhau, Eilistrraee) as part of their dogmas. This actually discourages the concept of homosexuallity form both sexes. Vaerhaun stands for overthrowing the female-only regime of Lolth, which includes subjugating her priestesses whenever possible. (Which would actually sort of negate ideas of homosexuality in favor of sexual dominance over females.)
The answer to your last question is YES! There are several instances of female priests among his faithful in canon, especially in the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. The priestess Shakti Hunzrin was one- one of the so-called "Masked Traitor" priestesses. There have been several others mentioned as well. Although they are somewhat rare- especially in Lolth-dominated cities where being found out would mean death, there are a few of them scattered about. Most of them are to be found in cities where Lolth does not have influence, or on the surface, especially among the House Jaelre drow of Cormanthor and their allies. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:13:16
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| None of the Dark Seldarine are about raising their numbers. And none of them discourage homosexuality (except MAYBE Lolth, but not outwardly). Ed himself said Drow male homosexuality is quite common, so that led e to consider dissafected homosexual males in Lolth's extreme matriarchy would flee to a god of drow males. So that would seem to bring a lot of them t Vhaeraun. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:15:11
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I could say the same could be said for most priests... but I won't.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:31:41
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Mod Edit: I really don't think we need commentary like this.  |
Edited by - The Sage on 13 Mar 2011 02:39:23 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could say the same could be said for most priests... but I won't.
What do you mean?
@Allystra How do ghe male clerics view tje female clerics of Vhaeraun? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:44:01
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| TW, if you look at his dogma, it says that he wants drow to forcibly reclaim their birthright and place in the Night Above, to reign supreme over all other races, with equality among males and females. His clerics seek to establish permanent drow settlements on the surface, and make them self-supporting if possible. He ALSO ENCOURAGES contact and marriage between drow and other elves, since children of those unions usually favor the drow parent. He sees this as inexorably raising drow numbers in surface lands. This is all paraphrased directly from 3.5 Faiths and Pantheons. He may not actively discourage the practices you mentioned, but I would assume that his interest in increasing drow populations on the surface would not lend such followers much favor in his eyes, as they are not aiding that cause. Even Ed did not exactly say it was COMMON, just that there was some occurrence of it. eilistraee does not actively discourage it, either, as she is a patron of drow and elven lovers (due to her connection to Sehenine and the moon), but that does not necessarily mean she encourages it, either. Lolth is a special case, I think. She encourages her priests to dominate and rule over others by any means necessary, including sexual subjugation, of both males and lesser females alike. I think that the disaffected males leaving her cities do not necessarily have to be homosexuals, since the idea really could apply to ANY males who wished to be free of her rule, regardless of their orientation. Not saying that it wouldn't make a good reason to disappear for them, but it's just not a big motivator- falls somewhere between wanting to grab power for themselves, and simply being tired of being treated as boy-toys. Plenty of males turn away from her without being of that stripe. Drizzt, Ryld, Quarlynd, and many others, I would guess. None of these are thought to be homosexual, and all ended up walking out. Though not to Vaerhaun, I'll admit. Even Jezz Jaelre is known to have several wives, as did the merchant and wizard Nisstyre from Daughter of the Drow. He even had a son (Gorlist) and both of them were definitely interested in Liriel as a "mate", whether she was willing or not. It's sort of implied that they were quite happy treating all females that way. In fact there is a mention that most of the females in their settlement were part of a harem. So much for having numerous homosexuals among Vaerhaunite males. Definitely not much a presence from the lore to be found. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:05:48
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| Good point, but don't you think that those Drow males who were homo and not inclined to good or that stuff would be drawn to Vhaeraun? It seems that way to me at least and I have no idea why I included his dogma and what he's about lol. But Ed did say for a matter of fact that it was common amongst them, much more than an occurance. And sexuality isn't a honderance or whatever to gods. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:21:05
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It's not encouraged nor discouraged by Vhaeraun, so a few occurrences possibly exist. But Alystra is right, he encourages marriage. Besides, he needs MORE faithful. And how else can he have that but through reproduction?!
I think if there's a deity who would encourage homosexuality to the maximum [or the minimum, depending on how you look at it], it would be Sharess. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:30:42
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| Can anyone see where I'm comming from though? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Good point, but don't you think that those Drow males who were homo and not inclined to good or that stuff would be drawn to Vhaeraun?
Why? Where's the connection between any flavor of sexuality and wanting to dominate the surface world? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:36:22
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| That's not what I'm getting at. Just a deity that suits you. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Can anyone see where I'm comming from though?
I'm also gay, by the way. But I don't attach homosexuality to almost all facets of the Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:42:35
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| Points to Wooly. That's basically what I' was trying to say. (In not so few words.) I can certainly see that some would TW. Not disputing that. BUT!! The questions you asked were fairly straightforward, and have some pretty definite in-canon answers, which I already gave. You can certainly have one if you like- just don't expect him to be in any sort of majority. Or even in a like-minded group of more than a handful of males in a Vaerhaunite settlement or encampment. you might find a few others, but not meny, more than likely. Also, I don't think inclinations toward good or evil have anything to do with whom they would be drawn to. Your subject is more of a lifestyle choice, not an ethical or moral one. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:58:09
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@Dennis I'm not attaching it to facets, this strung a curiosty chord within me lol
@Allystra What I'm trying to say is that a homo Drow male who was more evil than good would feel comfortable worshiping Vhaeraun especially since he's the god of Drow males and sid male came from the matriarchy society of Lolth. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:07:16
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| TW- That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But your original questions were whether it was prevalent and if most of his clergy or followers felt that way. The simple answers are no, it's not, and no, most don't appear to. But you can certainly have some who do. And yes, perhaps one who was would feel comfortable with Vaerhaun. But he might also feel comfortable with Mask or Cyric, neither one of whom really CARES what the preferences of their followers are, and they both share parts of their portfolios with Vaerhaun. Neither does Ghaunadaur, for that matter, and he seems to prefer male clerics and followers as well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Good point, but don't you think that those Drow males who were homo and not inclined to good or that stuff would be drawn to Vhaeraun?
Why? Where's the connection between any flavor of sexuality and wanting to dominate the surface world?
Besides, I really think homosexual drow would tend to be drawn to which ever deity they feel comfortable with, just like every over drow. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:25:40
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| That's what I really meant in my earlier posts XD What good deities would you suggest for a Drow homo male? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
That's what I really meant in my earlier posts XD What good deities would you suggest for a Drow homo male?
Again, it really does depend on the religious perspectives of the individual drow in question. It's just like asking about what deity would be appropriate for other society groups. There's no right or wrong answer... it's just about whatever deity they most feel comfortable with. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
That's what I really meant in my earlier posts XD What good deities would you suggest for a Drow homo male?
Again, it really does depend on the religious perspectives of the individual drow in question. It's just like asking about what deity would be appropriate for other society groups. There's no right or wrong answer... it's just about whatever deity they most feel comfortable with.
Indeed. We need more data. There is more to any person, real or imagined, than just their sexuality. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:42:37
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I'mspeaking in terms of a male who was scarred bu females in Lolthian societ, plus, there's a good bit of back story too which wold make sense with wat I'm askig otherwise I would have said the exact same thing both of you said.
Sorry for the typos! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 05:53:06
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Loviatar might be another good choice. I suppose it really depends on the BELIEFS of the drow male in question. I'll give you an example of what I mean- I'll use my two sibling PC's to illustrate.
Lothir is the only son and Heir of his family's house, which is male-ruled, but with a fairly strong presence of Lolth's clergy through his mother's side. (His father rose in the ranks of the house to Weapon Master, then led a coup against the leading females of the family with his loyal soldiers and several of the House mages. He gave the priestesses the choice of following him or death. Those who refused were slain, leaving mostly only some junior priestesses and one or two of the Noble women alive- including Lothir's mother- and they do not dare try to retaliate openly.) His father also led an alliance of disaffected males both noble and common in a massive uprising against the priestesses of no less than forty houses in five cities, several of them among the top eight of their cities. Thus, his family now rules as First House of all five cities combined, through various agreements with the other males of the coalition. Basically, this means that Lothir is now effectively first in line for his father's newly made throne.
In spite of this, he was still treated like any other male in his homeland whenever outside his own House. Matrons could (and DID) still order him to do anything they wished, as his sire recognized the wisdom in allowing the Matrons who remained to keep their edicts of Lolth. This means that they could still command males who were outside the safety and security of their homes, or those who were within their own families. So when he went off to the Academy, the young "prince" found himself quite frequently ordered to *ahem* serve various priestesses who crossed his path. After years of this kind of double-standard treatment, he grew sick of it, and along with his budding faith in the Dark Maiden (whom he had secretly encountered during a trip to the surface) he eventually fled. (There's more to it, like a love-interest who was sacrificed along with two unborn children by his own mother, but...) However, he still feels a great deal of respect for women (drummed in at an early age by mommy dearest under threat of whips) and has no interest in his own gender, in spite of advances from several males over the years. (A classmate who actually had a "thing" for him.)
ON THE OTHER HAND- His half-sister Morganna- who was born to a surface-elf slave woman in his father's harem (who was the murdered love-interest)- is utterly different. She is only half-drow by blood and birth, so is not even considered a noble. She is also quite contemptuous of her "weak, soft" mother, and long ago decided that no one would ever control or dominate her, especially in that way. Thus she became very cold, cruel, and domineering herself, arrogant in her belief in her own superiority. She has daddy issues, because she's illegitimate and not in line to rule even though she is older than her brother. She also looks down on anyone who is not drow, and on males especially, since she has seen the Lady and other females of the House acting thusly. However, she is also highly promiscuous, and does whatever she feels like, simply because no one seems able to stop her. She is in the habit of killing her lovers, mostly because she feels contempt for them, and has no qualms about going either way (though she does in fact prefer males). NMorganna's bloodthirsty ways, domineering attitude, and lack of respect for anything weaker than herself (everyone, according to her) led her to follow Tiamat, since the only thing she can respect is dragons. She hates her "weak" brother, and would dearly love to kill him, if it were possible. Being able to get her way in most things has made her hard and vicious, but she is also cunning and clever, with a love of poisons and stealth. She's also mentally unstable, unpredictable and capricious, sometimes killing just for the fun of it.
Naturally, Morganna has earned a reputation as a dangerous female, not only to enemies, but especially to those whom she chooses to get close to. However, since she spends much of her time plotting to take her father's place, and has no real authority within the house (much as she would like to think otherwise) most males are safe from her hedonistic and bloodthirsty appetites.
There you have two very different drow, raised in the same House, but with different views. Those views have affected not only their sexuality, but all otehr aspects of their personalities as well, even their choice of deities. One took the path of the "Moondancer", the other follows the Dragon Queen.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 12:00:35
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| I actually read about your characters and found them quite interesting. How did Morganna's mother get captured in the first place? I thnk Hanali Celanil and Sune would bw good ones too. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 14:01:42
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| As a quick note, in Windwalker, in the beginning of Chapter 6, it is stated that "followers of Vhaer[a]un preferred the company of other males. Brindlor [a deathsinger of Vhaer[a]un] wanted nothing to do with females under any circumstances." If I rememeber correctly, this is repeated and underscored in the following chapters of this book. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 16:52:08
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| Ooooo interesting. Mwahahahaha!!! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 01:54:54
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| I'm not sure if that means their orientation, though. I've read Windwalker- and the entire series- multiple times, but none of the Vaerhaunite characters ever struck me as being that way. Nisstyere and Gorlist certainly weren't, as noted earlier, and I don't recall their priest(forgot his name) being one either. It might just refer to their preference for "hanging out" with other males, not actually bedding them. Course, I could be wrong- we'd have to ask Elaine about that. I suspect it was more for the company, however. Drow women are known to be real (b)witches! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 02:01:19
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| But what about the priest who wanted nothing to do withfemales at all? :D |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 05:23:00
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Come to think of it, are there any gay male characters in any FR novels/game products? I don't think so.
There are some female bi/lesbian characters in FR; Quenthel Baenre, comes to mind, as does the goddess Llira, and some female leader in the FRCS who has a female consort.
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"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 05:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
Come to think of it, are there any gay male characters in any FR novels/game products? I don't think so.
Ed has discussed the topic during past replies here at Candlekeep. Just search the "So Saith Ed" archives [see the link in my signature].
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Homoexuality in Vhaeraun's clergy
