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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2013 : 07:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That works for all but the DL "dark elves", MT. As noted before, they are not even a "race" as such- in fact, very few elves are ever labeled "dark" there. I know of only two in the DL canon (in the novels). Dalamar was one, and I believe Lauralantha(sp?) was another, after she was rejected as leader by some elves and called a traitor. It was never clear if she really was "dark", however, as some claimed she had passed the "test" of the ceremony but was booted out anyway. So there really aren't any "dark elves" in DL at all- just a handful of elves who were kicked out of the "family", so to speak. They still belong to the same elven race as before, and nothing is changed except for their social status. I wouldn't even count them among the dark elves of the multiverse. Especially when there are only one or two in existence- and even THAT many is unusual.
I don't recall Laurana being called dark, but Porthios and Alhana were.
Laurana was never specifically labelled as a "dark elf" by her Qualinesti brothers and sisters, but she was deliberately snubbed to a point, and was often considered almost an outcast by some other elves. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 01:52:18
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| Ah, thank you Wooly, I had forgotten about those two! But, yes, as Sage said, she was indeed snubbed by the Qualinesti and IIRC was actually exiled by them. Which was really a shame, considering how much of a part she played in saving Krynn from the dragon armies. Didn't Gilthanas receive similar treatment because of his love for Silvara? It's been years since I last read those books. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 02:21:45
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| All true and yes Gilthanas received the same treatment b/c of Silvara. The elves of Ansalon tend to be very bigoted. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 02:39:28
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| Feal-thas was the dark elf who was the white dragon high lord that guarded the dragon orb at icewall. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 03:59:29
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| I can't remember right now which module had Drow in Krynn...but they were there. I'll look into it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 04:11:33
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| I don't recall any official product or author/designer stating that drow existed in Dragonlance. However, in the original Soulforge (not the novel, but a 'choose your own adventure' style book) did have Raistlin attacked by a drow during his test. I dunno if that's the reference you are remembering but that is the only instance I know of...and I'm pretty sure it's not considered canon to DL. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 05:03:57
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Still looking through encounter tables...but pretty darned sure there was an official module that had Drow on the encounter table...
EDIT: Dragonlance 7
"There are also two “untrue elves.” These are the Half-Elven, product of elf and man, and the Dark Elven, a throwback to days before the Age of Dreams." |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 19 Aug 2013 05:29:56 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 05:35:36
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| For me, the Drow should be replaced with the Nzunta in Dragonlance...those are some bad mofos! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 07:55:52
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| After getting used to the forgotten realms dark elves ..it was hard for me to understand the darkelves of midkemia. Moreheil or brotherhood of the dark path. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 07:57:24
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| After getting used to the forgotten realms dark elves ..it was hard for me to understand the darkelves of midkemia. Moreheil or brotherhood of the dark path. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 12:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
After getting used to the forgotten realms dark elves ..it was hard for me to understand the darkelves of midkemia. Moreheil or brotherhood of the dark path.
The moredhel are very interesting, to me, because of the fact that it's possible for them to Return and become eledhel. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 15:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Still looking through encounter tables...but pretty darned sure there was an official module that had Drow on the encounter table...
EDIT: Dragonlance 7
"There are also two “untrue elves.” These are the Half-Elven, product of elf and man, and the Dark Elven, a throwback to days before the Age of Dreams."
I'll just note that this odd occurrence of the concept of "untrue elves" in DRAGONLANCE, has been kind of phased out with later material. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 16:11:05
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| The presence of drow in that early work must have been an assumption on the part of a Jeff Grub (writer for DL7). Lolth doesn't exist in DL so Weis/Hickman must have decided drow would not exist...although I think some kind of migration shoulda/woulda occurred at some point. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 23:56:14
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| The god of elven vampires is not listed in FR deities. Just as I wish jander sunstar had found out about the ritual to change back from undead to elf.... |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 00:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The god of elven vampires is not listed in FR deities. Just as I wish jander sunstar had found out about the ritual to change back from undead to elf....
Even if he'd've known about it, it prolly can't be done in Ravenloft, and certainly not by a swordswinger. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 03:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The presence of drow in that early work must have been an assumption on the part of a Jeff Grub (writer for DL7). Lolth doesn't exist in DL so Weis/Hickman must have decided drow would not exist...although I think some kind of migration shoulda/woulda occurred at some point.
That's part of it.
But it's also a reality that the world of DRAGONLANCE has a very specific setting framework with the select races and their relationships with the history of Krynn. Simply, there really just hasn't been a place for the drow, because the kinds of historical events that have often led to the creation of these kinds of elves elsewhere, have never occurred anywhere in Krynnish history. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 05:25:21
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I'm in agreement that Drow don't exist on Krynn "naturally"...
As I said, the Nzunta (Evil High Ogres) are far better at filling that role for me; though there are such a limited number of them.
I have used Drow in Krynn though...not as a race; but as individuals "Gifted" by Takhisis for serving her. Essentially, all the same abilities as Drow... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 23:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Don't you mean the Irda? Those were the evil (but attractive) "high" ogres.
The Irda weren't evil. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 00:12:48
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| The Irda escaped the curse of the Ogres because of their goodness. The Nzunta are a purest race that escapes the curse of the ogres because they kill off any offspring that are not pure...they are completely evil and wicked. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 03:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Don't you mean the Irda? Those were the evil (but attractive) "high" ogres.
The Irda weren't evil.
I think Alystra's referring to the fact that Igraine, originally an evil ogre, learnt compassion from a human slave which eventually put him and "his people" [the Irda] on the path to goodness. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 03:50:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
They were in the beginning- isn't that what caused them to degenerate to "normal" ogers in the first place? Or did I imagine that whole slavery and slaughter bit?
No. The ogres were the true firstborn race of the gods of evil. As the most beautiful and intelligent creatures of Krynn, they lorded over a mighty empire that enslaved those they considered "lesser" races -- particularly humans -- making them their servants.
It wasn't until Igraine sought to change all that, that the evil ogres were cast down and their appearance changed to suit their vile mindsets, while those that followed Igraine to their island home among the Dragon Isles, retained the race's pronounced beauty and became the embodiments of compassion and goodness. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 04:32:23
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| There has been a lot of discussion around the Descent of the Drow lately, and it is indeed a very interesting topic. I like drow. However, as one of the (apparently few) who actually likes Corellon (as is obvious by my name) I refuse to keep reading about how much people hate him |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 20:36:39
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| Sehanine is where its at man....... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 21:12:52
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| When I first encountered the FR (though drizzt) I considered corellon to be my favorite power,but after seeing how he has done nothing to combat the human aggression towards his children...I found it harder and harder to keep admiring him and the seldarine. Where is that legendary might that cause the other gods to respect his might?the only god human god vie seen him humble is malar,back before the first flowering.is he afaid of sparking a war with the human gods?he is said to be the protector of the elven people but I dnt see him standing up for the People.even when the elf eater was loosed on evermeet they didn't lift a finger(and that was an elder evil),even shevarash didn't come to the aid of the island and it's suppose to be corellon and his sphere of influence.it's like watching your home get burglarized and watching the crook walkout with the plasma screen,without even using the gun(sahadrian) to stop it. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 23:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
They were in the beginning- isn't that what caused them to degenerate to "normal" ogres in the first place? Or did I imagine that whole slavery and slaughter bit?
No. The ogres were the true firstborn race of the gods of evil. As the most beautiful and intelligent creatures of Krynn, they lorded over a mighty empire that enslaved those they considered "lesser" races -- particularly humans -- making them their servants.
It wasn't until Igraine sought to change all that, that the evil ogres were cast down and their appearance changed to suit their vile mindsets, while those that followed Igraine to their island home among the Dragon Isles, retained the race's pronounced beauty and became the embodiments of compassion and goodness.
Yes, Sage, that was exactly what I was referring to, actually. I read the novel on them, though it has been several years, and I had forgotten the exact details, but I DID remember that it had to do with keeping slaves and that some of them were VERY harsh masters. There was also something about the tree with the Heart of the Irda, I think the artifact was called. However, AFAIK, it was the only substantial lore on them at all. But it was basically a similar case to what was done to the Drow. Bad kids get punished and disowned, and changed appearance so that the good kids won't get mistaken for them. Typical godly arrogant short-sighted punishment. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 23:33:29
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| I only recall the SONG of the irda as being the most important thing to the elder ogres.the song of their history.one thing I wasn't sure about was rather the irda retained their immortally.... |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2013 : 04:47:39
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If the Dark Disaster hadn't happened, there probably wouldn't even be drow--they'd still be Illytheri or "dark elves". Either that, or they'd be a small race, consisting of only those who were "corrupted". Then again, I suppose that race would have grown over time. Hmm...
As for Corellon "not lifting a finger" to help his children, well, I'll admit his--and that of the other Seldarine--passivity can be contradictory to his character, considering he is the Protector, and there have been times he should have stepped in. However, the gods are sometimes accused of being too involved in mortal affairs, and the Seldarine (except for maybe Shav) are aware of this, so their passivity might be due to that.
The Seldarine, IIRC, encourage the elves to better themselves, for the sake of the People. Religion/spirituality is important to many elves, and most go to Arvandor when they die, unless they specifically worship a deity outside the elven pantheon. By nature, I think the elves are closer to their gods than other races (save perhaps Mystra's Chosen, or any chosen, really), and they were born of Corellon's blood, so in a way, he is always with them, and works through them. In this way, he is not passive at all.
These thoughts are coming to me as I type, so forgive me if I am rambling. Tis all my admittedly biased opinion, since I am fond of the Seldarine. As I said in another thread (there have been several threads about this topic) Corellon isn't the only god who has done something stupid that makes you *headdesk*. Stealing the Tablets of Fate and causing the Spellplague, anyone?
*wasn't going to comment more or comment on this thread, but I had to say my piece* |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Descent of the Drow & the multiverse?
