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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 21:31:38
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| I just troll people for the lulz. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 21:41:37
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You guys are crazy  |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 23:48:13
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CK is extremely civil compared too many other message boards. Take World of Warcraft's
One mention of the word blood elf or high elf and you get s much hate kt. Unbearable amd I'm USED to hate so it should come as a sjprise. I remember askong of there were any books out books out about blood elves and I was instantly called a fag and any other words. Thankfully I don't care to mich for WoW anymore (andth game get's sooooo boring). |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 23:49:03
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| Sorry for typos :,( |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 02:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Sorry for typos :,(
One thing that helps with typos is to use Microsoft Word, then copy and paste. Spell check helps. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 03:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Sorry for typos :,(
One thing that helps with typos is to use Microsoft Word, then copy and paste. Spell check helps.
Or proofreading before hitting Post New Reply.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 04:33:26
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| Or going back and editing the post after one notices the typos. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 04:57:39
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| I think we've covered this well enough for the lad. So... plea for civility! Interesting! Did that work? Are we back on topic now? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 05:21:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think that part of having a community where we feel free to have our opinions and express ourselves requires that we be open, honest, and respectful with one another.
That sounds wonderful and it is a laudable goal but there is a small fly in the oinment, so to speak.
Some FR novels and game books are bad. Some (not all, not most, not even many) are poorly written, poorly edited, or poorly concieved. I'm not specifying authors or individual titles, we all likely would produce a different list of such if we were asked anyway. And this is not an edition issue, there have been bad books with the FR logo for all editions, IMO.
This is absolutely inevitable for a setting that has produced this much work over the ages. There are simply too many FR products in existance - just the law of averages indicates some would be poor.
So, there is that issue which will inevitably lead some authors or editors to feel persecuted here or on any other fan board where people express criticism.
When you add to that the edition wars, and hype/marketing campaigns which seemed designed to antagonize fans (I vividly recall how WotC seemed determined to prove tht AD&D was the worst RPG ever produced in order to get us to buy 3e)... well, any forum is going to attract those who are looking for somewhere to feel like they can complain and be heard.
I can't say CK is the most congenial forum I frequent, but leaving aside my own recent travails, It seems pretty average in its welcome. Not as friendly as the Piazzo (which is much smaller) nor as cliquish as Dragonsfoot. I'd say its on par with the Kenzerco forums, where the creators do hang out, but they have greater control over every aspect of their games and company, since they are not part of Hasbro.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 09:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think that part of having a community where we feel free to have our opinions and express ourselves requires that we be open, honest, and respectful with one another.
That sounds wonderful and it is a laudable goal but there is a small fly in the oinment, so to speak.
Some FR novels and game books are bad. Some (not all, not most, not even many) are poorly written, poorly edited, or poorly concieved. I'm not specifying authors or individual titles, we all likely would produce a different list of such if we were asked anyway. And this is not an edition issue, there have been bad books with the FR logo for all editions, IMO.
So if a book's bad, you can't say that respectfully? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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hawkytom
Seeker
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 09:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think that part of having a community where we feel free to have our opinions and express ourselves requires that we be open, honest, and respectful with one another.
That sounds wonderful and it is a laudable goal but there is a small fly in the oinment, so to speak.
Some FR novels and game books are bad. Some (not all, not most, not even many) are poorly written, poorly edited, or poorly concieved. I'm not specifying authors or individual titles, we all likely would produce a different list of such if we were asked anyway. And this is not an edition issue, there have been bad books with the FR logo for all editions, IMO.
So if a book's bad, you can't say that respectfully?
I rarely post things, but I follow these boards close. I appreciate every single Realms book that has ever been written and all future novels. It's my love of the Forgotten Realms setting that was created so long ago that I cling to, regardless of the changes that come and go; I enjoy riding the roller coaster through whatever up and downs come. I'm not saying I thoroughly enjoyed all the Realms book I've read, BUT I'm greatful for the contribution/promotion of the setting.
I like having the authors/readers having a friendly environment to discuss the realms and think that it's important things always remain as civil as possible. I personally feel no reader should ever disrespect an author over their novel on this website, it's not required to show your dislike for a novel.
Keep up the good work everybody and thank you! |
Any Lone Wolf fans? Old school gamebooks from the 80's? They are being re-released/updated, and new books 29-32 being written: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/novels/lonewolfsolo.html
Forgotten Realms BOOKS owned: ALL of them! (ebooks?...NONE! ever) |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 16:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
So, there is that issue which will inevitably lead some authors or editors to feel persecuted here or on any other fan board where people express criticism.
How someone reacts to what they perceive as bad about a product matters more than any real flaw in that product.
There’s a world of difference between the armchair fan who mistakes the Forgotten Realms product in their hands for a crystal ball that magically lets them see, hear and know all about the people who made that particular Realms product and the decisions they made vs. the fan who is wise enough to understand:
1) There are layers of process a product goes through before WotC releases it to the public and those processes aren’t always set in stone (priorities change, release schedules are adjusted up or down and personnel get reassigned).
2) Assumptions about a product, no matter how well informed, aren’t facts. They belong to the fan who made them and aren’t necessarily true.
3) The best way to answer questions about the “why?” behind the particulars of a given work is to talk to the people who made it in a respectful, calm, non-accusatory manner.
I like to give game designers and novel authors some credit: if (online) reaction to their work is mostly negative, but comes in the form of commentary given by the wise gamer, I don’t think they’re going to feel persecuted.
If the reactions come from the crystal ball types who assume far too much, well who wouldn’t feel persecuted? If you have to spend time defending your work from their assumptions instead of being afforded the opportunity to explain the hows and whys that went into the product you made, why bother?
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 22:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
So, there is that issue which will inevitably lead some authors or editors to feel persecuted here or on any other fan board where people express criticism.
It might, yes. Every author has a different outrage/offense threshhold, so even the most polite critique could set someone off. And we all have different buttons and triggers, not to mention the occasional bad day.
I seldom have a problem with criticism, even when it's blunt. What DOES annoy me is repetition.
We've all seen it. People who have to chime in EVERY TIME a book or author comes up in discussion. This can color the tone and establish a reputation for a site most quickly than just about anything. I left Candlekeep myself for quite a while because I was tired of the negativity that attended any mention of a long-time FR writer. When a site gets a reputation for being anti-someone-or-other, sticking around becomes problematic in that it implies an endorsement of those opinions, attitudes, and mode of expression.
Individual or even occasional comments don't bother me. I know that some readers don't find my stories dark enough, or don't care for my books that feature elves. Frankly, I expect that. But I wouldn't stick around a site where people responded to every mention of The Serpent's Daughter with something along the lines of, "Oh, GOD no--not another book about those snooty long-eared tree-hugging emo bastards..." |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 14 Mar 2011 22:13:44 |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 23:14:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So if a book's bad, you can't say that respectfully?
I have found that, not just on CK but also the old Realms email list, there are some fans, designers, and/or authors who consider any criticism to be disrespectful. There has even been a tendancy to hound, tar, and insult anyone who expresses negative opinions on a Realms product. I'm not saying that is happening now, but it has happened, it is the flip-side to the idea that people hound away FR authors.
Frankly, isn't your terse response to my post indicative of that tendancy in Realms fandom? I'm not saying you crossed any lines, but clearly your hackles have raised.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
There’s a world of difference between the armchair fan who mistakes the Forgotten Realms product in their hands for a crystal ball that magically lets them see, hear and know all about the people who made that particular Realms product and the decisions they made vs. the fan who is wise enough to understand:
1) There are layers of process a product goes through before WotC releases it to the public and those processes aren’t always set in stone (priorities change, release schedules are adjusted up or down and personnel get reassigned).
2) Assumptions about a product, no matter how well informed, aren’t facts. They belong to the fan who made them and aren’t necessarily true.
3) The best way to answer questions about the “why?” behind the particulars of a given work is to talk to the people who made it in a respectful, calm, non-accusatory manner.
This sort of post is why I started the editor thread. A setting should stand on its merits, not expect to be graded on a curve based on how it was produced.
But this is really not about the novels, most of these 'why' questions you refer to are not about a novel as a novel, but rather about changes to the setting. Those changes have naturally introduced sturm und drang into the hearts of many Realms fans over the years.
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I seldom have a problem with criticism, even when it's blunt. What DOES annoy me is repetition.
We've all seen it. People who have to chime in EVERY TIME a book or author comes up in discussion.
I completely understand how that can be annoying, even reprehensible but to a certain degree it is a function of the internet. We try to prevent such repetition through stickies and FAQs, but as long as new folks join a forum the same threads will keep popping up, and it will seem to some like a new discussion even if they are repeating themselves for the upteenth time.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
Edited by - GMWestermeyer on 15 Mar 2011 00:59:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 03:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So if a book's bad, you can't say that respectfully?
I have found that, not just on CK but also the old Realms email list, there are some fans, designers, and/or authors who consider any criticism to be disrespectful. There has even been a tendancy to hound, tar, and insult anyone who expresses negative opinions on a Realms product. I'm not saying that is happening now, but it has happened, it is the flip-side to the idea that people hound away FR authors.
And so what does that have to do with how you express yourself? Your comment implies that since criticism might not be well-received, you're under no obligation to be courteous.
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Frankly, isn't your terse response to my post indicative of that tendancy in Realms fandom? I'm not saying you crossed any lines, but clearly your hackles have raised.
Yes, my hackles are raised. And it has nothing to do with Realms fandom -- it's all about simple etiquette. I don't care what the opinion is, and on what topic -- that's all irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant -- what this thread has gone on for 6 pages about -- is just being courteous when expressing that opinion.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 03:18:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.
Because the issue under discussion encompases more than just courtesy or the crassness of a reply. What constitutes courtesy or crassness is subjective. There fore what is offensive is also subjective. This is why this thread has gone on 6 pages.
This is the human nature Brynweir was questioning me on earlier. To be 100% courteous to each other, 100% of the time, we'd all have to have the exact same understanding of courtesy and strive towards it. But we don't have that understanding. Therefore someone will always be offended about something someone else has said to one degree or another. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 03:32:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.
Because the issue under discussion encompases more than just courtesy or the crassness of a reply. What constitutes courtesy or crassness is subjective. There fore what is offensive is also subjective. This is why this thread has gone on 6 pages.
This is the human nature Brynweir was questioning me on earlier. To be 100% courteous to each other, 100% of the time, we'd all have to have the exact same understanding of courtesy and strive towards it. But we don't have that understanding. Therefore someone will always be offended about something someone else has said to one degree or another.
Ah, but that doesn't excuse people from at least trying to be courteous, at least in their own definitions. If someone is being crass by my definition, and I call them on it, the courteous thing to do (by just about EVERYONE'S standards) would be to reply with "I'm sorry if you felt it was crass, I didn't mean it that way." |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 03:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.
Because the issue under discussion encompases more than just courtesy or the crassness of a reply. What constitutes courtesy or crassness is subjective. There fore what is offensive is also subjective. This is why this thread has gone on 6 pages.
This is the human nature Brynweir was questioning me on earlier. To be 100% courteous to each other, 100% of the time, we'd all have to have the exact same understanding of courtesy and strive towards it. But we don't have that understanding. Therefore someone will always be offended about something someone else has said to one degree or another.
Ah, but that doesn't excuse people from at least trying to be courteous, at least in their own definitions. If someone is being crass by my definition, and I call them on it, the courteous thing to do (by just about EVERYONE'S standards) would be to reply with "I'm sorry if you felt it was crass, I didn't mean it that way."
Indeed and suspect most of us would be happy with that. The trouble is, that is an apology for an offence it's not actually a prevention of the offence. Which is what some have called for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 04:36:18
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Wow... there's a 'novels' sub-forum? I never noticed.
Actually, clicked on it by accident LOL, and then noticed this thread.
I have to say I found RLB's idea intriguing, if only in that you'd all get to see what 'un-edited' Markustay is like. 
I'd probably never hear a complaint about my normal posts again. 
The only thing I think I can add to this discussion is that I truly believe things are getting better here; we just went through a REALLY bad spell. TRUE, we still have some speed-bumps once in awhile, but it is nowhere as bad as most of the sites I've been a regular on.
The only site I have EVER seen more positive and civil is the Cartographersguild... they are so nice to everyone its scary (for me, its like being a porcupine in a balloon factory).
Anyhow, I agree that the designers/authors contributing here is our greatest resource - its what makes us stand-out from the pack. I think losing them would be the worst thing that could possibly happen, so for our own sakes as well as theirs I think toning it down is the way to go. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Mar 2011 04:37:51 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 05:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So if a book's bad, you can't say that respectfully?
I've yet to find a way to tell someone "I find your characters too passive and distract from those driving the action" nicely. If someone has found a way to make that sound... erm... more diplomatic, I'm all ears. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
Edited by - Lady Fellshot on 15 Mar 2011 05:42:15 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 09:33:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So if a book's bad, you can't say that respectfully?
I've yet to find a way to tell someone "I find your characters too passive and distract from those driving the action" nicely. If someone has found a way to make that sound... erm... more diplomatic, I'm all ears.
Word!
I'm an honest guy, like honesty above everything else, and consider it an insult if someone tries to moddlecottle me. To be anything than honest is the path that brought the USA the war in Iraq, so if a book sucks in my opinion, I will say so and give my reasons. There is no courteous way when one is honest. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 12:22:19
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I was - for a long time - a fairly vocal critic of FR products (both novels and gaming material) that I felt didn't come up to scratch or affected the setting in ways that I didn't think were "true" to my view of the Realms and self-created standards.
It was Paul Kemp who gently took me to task, pointing out that my postings had a certain gravitas, coming from a semi-published author and someone who was relatively well known in the FR firmament. Basically, he said to me that me being negative some or all of the time didn't help the setting, the people who loved the place or new fans of the Realms. At the time I thought he was overstating (by a significant margin) what influence if any my musings or observations would have on the fanbase. Even so, I took on board what he said and since that time I don't think I've posted anything critical of any FR writer or author.
Why? Well, I decided a while ago that all the complaining and 'constructive criticism' and pointing out of errors or ways to have done stuff "better" didn't change anything. It didn't change anything because it was dealing with the subjective. My FR vision didn't necessarily tally with that of the writers and designers, and their 'cool' idea didn't always float my boat and vice versa. Plus - and taking a leaf out of Elaine's comments - I found after a time that my energies were better devoted to more constructive efforts viz a viz the Realms and my life in general. All the pointing out of errors and complaints and questioning the whys and wherefores of the FR work of others didn't change anything and was never going to. The writers were unlikely to agree with me (quite rightly - because there was nothing inherently 'wrong'with the work they had produced in the first place) and what was done was done. Their only real option, I figured, was to defend their work, if they responded at all. What a waste of time that would be.
Given that, I rationalised that although the published Realms has caused me a significant amount of  and  reactions over the years, it has also in greater measure caused me a significant amount of and  reactions also. I've tried to minimise the  aspects of my own FR musings and done what I can to bring a smile to Ed's face when he reads some of my posts and sits back and thinks "Good job, George. Love the new realmslore. Thanks for thinking about and caring about my labour of love." The fact that a few regulars here have also commented positively on my musings has helped sustain my FR ego. I thank you all.
So to take me back to the original basis of this thread - do we need civility to other posters, especially those who write for a living and do so at times in the Realms? Absolutely. Is it likely to occur? At times and depending on the importance of the topic to any individual posting. Misguided passion catches all of us at times and takes us to places we probably don't really intend to go. Let's try to be positive about the Realms and make this a sharing community that benefits us all.
Thanks to those who waded through this rambling post.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 15 Mar 2011 12:23:08 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 12:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
b] What DOES annoy me is repetition. [/b].
Sorry Elaine,
I will try to refrain from jumping in and repeating my love for all your works when I read Serpents Daughter.
P.S. But I think I may fail. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 14:32:30
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My sentiments mirrors George's.
I have my own opinions and they are subjective yes I have a lot of dislike to what current realms is, damn I havent seen enough of the old realms yet now it is all gone in the future .. Or is it. I will live in my realm and borrow what I want from main stream after all the first and most important rule of rpg is:
it is your world do what you like.
So to all realms authors thank you for the brilliant books and for crazy misguided sections of some off them that you may or may not have been responsable for. Keep working do your best to bring books that not only your fans, realms fans, new fans will love and most importantly you will love.
As long forgotten realms is not forgotten I am happy.
kind regards to everyone |
Purple you say?!
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 19:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I have found that, not just on CK but also the old Realms email list, there are some fans, designers, and/or authors who consider any criticism to be disrespectful. There has even been a tendency to hound, tar, and insult anyone who expresses negative opinions on a Realms product. I'm not saying that is happening now, but it has happened, it is the flip-side to the idea that people hound away FR authors.
That depends on your point of view.
On the Realms-L list I can’t say I ever came across one criticism-averse designer or author. They were all open to criticism and readily responded to it, but with the caveat that it be of the smart, think-before-you-speak variety.
When the handful of designers/authors left the List, it wasn’t because they’d become averse to catching flack, rather it was because they chose to remove themselves from a forum conversation that had shifted from talk about products that had their names on it to one that openly questioned their personal work ethic, whether or not they lied in previous posts, their knowledge of the setting and their professionalism.
What you describe as “hound, tar, and insult” looked from my POV like a subset of fans getting ridiculed for being incredibly tactless and rude.
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
This sort of post is why I started the editor thread. A setting should stand on its merits, not expect to be graded on a curve based on how it was produced.
If only it were that simple.
There are plenty of conversations we can have about a Realms product. Each type of conversation invites criticism. And each type of conversation generally leads to the next type, as there’s always some crossover as a given discussion progresses.
We can talk about whether a product was fun or not (adventure), useful or not (sourcebook) an enjoyable, fun read or not (novel).
We can talk about a product’s attributes: writing, editing, layout, art, Realmslore accuracy and overall presentation.
We can talk about how the product affects the Realms as a whole; how it adds to the tapestry and whether we think this is good or bad for the setting.
If we have the privilege of interacting with the game designer or novel author, we can ask them about their thinking when they wrote X, Y or Z.
We can use the product as an excuse to discuss ethereal topics such as perceived attitude of the company towards its customers, whether the company is “disrespecting” the fans by releasing the product, whether the company is taking the setting in the wrong direction with the product, whether the product is yet more proof that certain authors or designers are personally responsible for destroying (or enhancing) the Realms, and personal opinions of how a shared world setting should be managed.
The first couple of types of conversations are where judging a setting (more accurately, a product) on its merits is the right thing to do.
The third and fourth type of conversation is more vague: here we shift from talking about a user experience to what we perceive about the setting and whether author/designer X did a good job.
The last type of conversation is pure crystal ball activity. It’s doused in subjectivity, yet many a fan will insist on their right to inflict a forum conversation with a harshly worded diatribe that “accurately” describes WotC’s mindset, thinking and standards.
This last is where civility is the better part of valor. Terrain of this sort is the kind that catches fire and requires care in navigating, no matter what standards one uses to judge a setting.
It's also where a firm knowledge of how and why a product was made is important. That knowledge alleviates misperceptions and often puts the lie to grandiose claims. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 15 Mar 2011 19:39:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 19:56:54
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| {smirk} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 22:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Some FR novels and game books are bad. Some (not all, not most, not even many) are poorly written, poorly edited, or poorly concieved. I'm not specifying authors or individual titles, we all likely would produce a different list of such if we were asked anyway. And this is not an edition issue, there have been bad books with the FR logo for all editions, IMO.
In your opinion, these books/novels are bad. I kind of skimmed most of this thread, but I believe you said you write non-fiction history for a living? (if incorrect, ignore what follows in the rest of this paragraph) Considering we are talking about fiction fantasy novels, I find it very nebulous to be able to label any bit of writing in the genre as "good" or "bad". This isn't non-fiction history that is being written about where if you're getting your facts wrong your credibility goes in the toilet because you're just wrong and therefore someone might be able to actually call that work "bad". This type of writing is meant to be entertaining. It's meant to reach out to a very diverse audience who very often might find some parts of each specific work enjoyable and others not so much. But that's the way it's supposed to be.
When I walk into my local Borders to purchase the newest FR or Star Wars novel/game book, I basically ignore everything else in the store. I'm there to get what I'm there for and get home to start reading it. Sometimes I think about how many other books/stories I'm walking right past without ever cracking them open. Some stuff I have tried out in the past. Some appealed to me, most didn't. Nothing as much as FR.
Not every book I pick up appeals to me as much as every other book I own. I don't think of those as "dime novels" or "bad" works...they just might have focused on elements in storytelling that didn't grab me and draw me into the story as well as others. Some people like lots of action sequences, some love layers of intrigue with plot twists in their stories, some like a lot of background info with lore and past history relevant to the current story they are reading. I feel there are ways to express an opinion about whether you found a book appealing, or more specifically, which aspects of a book you found appealing or what you felt was missing that would have made it more appealing. Simply calling it "bad" or referring to it as a "dime" novel isn't fully expressing your opinion (and it's just that, your opinion, nothing more) on the piece. I'd expect writers to be better than most at being more articulate in their feelings on what a book had and didn't have that appeals to them. Given that this site in general from what I've seen is a community of people who enjoy the FR setting, it's highly likely that more than a couple people who post here will enjoy any work in the Realms setting. Knowing that, wouldn't it be more constructive and respectful to other potential readers to express what elements a book has and which it didn't have? Expressing what you usually like in a book and noting that there wasn't much of those elements in the one you're commenting about will help other possible readers who share the same types of desires as you in what they read. It's only fair to also comment on the elements a book DID have as well in that case, and that would also help others who maybe are looking for opinion on the book without it sounding very dismissive and possibly insulting.
The writers are all just trying to tell a story, it's very unlikely that there will be no one that likes it given that these are published authors. Just because you might not, doesn't mean there won't be others who will enjoy it. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And so what does that have to do with how you express yourself? Your comment implies that since criticism might not be well-received, you're under no obligation to be courteous.
That wasn't my intention. My intention was to state, not imply, that even when being courteous, others have responded to criticism with great discourtesy.
I am saying there is a strong tendancy in FR fandom to use cries for civility as a means of silencing those who are critical of works - even when the criticism is courteous.
If people cannot acknowledge in this thread that this happens, then this isn't really a thread about civility, is it? It would then just be a thread about protecting FR authors from criticism.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And so what does that have to do with how you express yourself? Your comment implies that since criticism might not be well-received, you're under no obligation to be courteous.
That wasn't my intention. My intention was to state, not imply, that even when being courteous, others have responded to criticism with great discourtesy.
I am saying there is a strong tendancy in FR fandom to use cries for civility as a means of silencing those who are critical of works - even when the criticism is courteous.
If people cannot acknowledge in this thread that this happens, then this isn't really a thread about civility, is it? It would then just be a thread about protecting FR authors from criticism.
And just how, pray tell, does asking one to be civil equate to silencing someone? I myself have said more than once it's all about how the opinion is expressed, not what the opinion is.
Hells, I've offered my own criticism of a lot of the authors here, including Ed. And I stayed civil about it, and no one tried to silence me.
So you may see this supposed strong tendency, but I don't.
And it's all beside the point, anyway. You have yet to acknowledge a need for courtesy -- in more than 6 pages, you've been busy giving all sorts of reasons why not to be courteous. |
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A Plea for Civility
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