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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
734 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Perhaps there should be an Insult thread where each of us posts the mot vicious, nasty, poisonous message he can write. Then, when wondering if someone meant to be insulting, you could compare the post in question to the guy's official Insult message and perhaps decide, No, obviously, he didn't mean to be offensive. I can see that when he means to be offensive, he's a lot worse.
Heh heh heh heh heh... Nifty idea. Not possible in practice, but still quite cute. A bit like an internet version of The Aristocrats. Anyway. I'm away from the keyboard for a couple of days, and a four-page thread all of a sudden pops up.
Couple of things I'd like to contribute. First, for the Moderators - Wooly and Sage, you're doing a fine job, as far as I am concerned. Yes, things get a bit edgy once in a while, but there's no clear dividing line between "right" and "wrong" ways of expressing oneself on these fora. Compared to other venues, Candlekeep is a relatively quiet haven of tranquility and civility. Don't doubt yourself overmuch.
Second, with regard to Richard's comment above - he is on to something here. Everyone has a different way of expressing oneself, and what passes for crass sarcasm to some (a charge often laid at my feet in daily life - I'll admit to being afflicted by a severe case of smart-mouth foul-mouth foot-in-mouth disease, and I could probably give the new mayor of Chicago or his Twitter alter ego a good run for their money) is considered playful banter by others. We're all the product of our environment, and as it happens, my particular mode of communication works in my work environment, when used at appropriate times. Sad, perhaps, but that is the way it is. My point is - someone's language should be seen in the general context of their personality. Also, verbal communication is only something like 10% of the message - body language and attitude count for a lot, and that can simply not be conveyed through this Interwebs thingie. When I'm in ranting mode in real life, a lot of that is neutralised by body language. Sure, I can use harsh language. But I can do it in a charming way  . Not always pleasant, but often entertaining.
I've seen the writings of GMWestermeyer since the mid-nineties, when he was on a couple of the old mailing lists that I also used to frequent. I can wholeheartedly agree with how he describes himself:
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Yes, posting this makes me a pedantic ass.
But, hey that's GMWestermeyer. Thus it has always been, thus will it ever be - it's a small comfort, in some ways, that "to thy own self, be true" has not gone completely out of fashion.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You know, it really is not what any is intended to post, it is what actually is posted.
Text does not convey vocal tones, body language and a personal interaction. The silly smilies can to some extend try to convey tone text is intended to take. However a poor substitute for fully understanding tone and the intention of the post.
Well, insulting requires intent, I should think. Feeling insulted is another matter. It works both ways - the same language can be considered insulting by one, not insulting by another, and high praise by a third.
There is no "right" to be protected against "feeling insulted". This is the Internet, people, and what passes for courteous in one part of the world, passes for a mortal insult in another. Always been the case, except that up until fifteen or so years ago, people only very rarely communicated with the entire world on a regular basis. Coupled with the absence of context, like body language, and the fact that many English-writing posters are not native English-speakers, it's easy to "feel insulted". And I'm not even going into the subtleties of Yankee, Dixie, Limey, Ozzie or Canuck lingo, let alone any regional or local differences within said constituencies. While using a string of George Carlin's word you cannot say on TV in front of anyone's name if probably sufficient indication that an insult is going on, one cannot (and should not, up to a point) ponder each sentence asking oneself "Am I sure that there is no one in the whole wide web that will feel insulted by this?" Can't be done. There's the obvious cases - If I were to address someone by rattling off George Carlin's famous Words You Cannot Say on TV in front of their name, that's defintely an insult. Black area. But in internet communication, there's only a little black, and a lot of gray. No white, because I'm pretty sure that whatever one says or writes, someone exists that will feel insulted if (s)h(e)(it) reads it.
Having known GMWestermeyer's style for a long time, I understood that the reference to Dime-Store novels was not intended to be pejorative, let alone an insult. It is what it is. We should, perhaps, keep in mind that, even if we all here love FR to some degree, the writings are not exactly Nobel Prize material. Which is fine by me. I've tried a fair bit of Nobel Prize material, and I have to say - a lot of it gave me headaches, and none of it gave me the simple pleasure that comes from a novel by Elaine Cunningham, Big Ed, or Robert Salvatore. Pulp fiction used to be a pejorative term ("dime-store novel", as I understand it, is a notion that kind-of covers pulp fiction), but with writers like Howard and Lovecraft being part of that tradition, well, why not? Pulp fiction it is, and proud of it we are (to use Yoda's grammar).
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And for full disclosure, I responded 2-3 times in that thread and posted a paraphrase of our discussion on my facebook, without your name. That's it.
Please don't take this in the wrong way - I'm not a member of Facebook, and deliberately so, so my knowledge of it is a bit limited, but when I get into a tiff with someone on a particular internet venue, I keep it to that venue. A bit like "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". I have not read that post, but even without names mentioned, it does not take rocket science (Google will do) for anyone wishing to find out more about the poster, for better or for worse, to do a bit of due diligence. On the internet, we can all be a bit of a jerk from time to time, but people who only know us through that medium, that's all we are. And if people think that my internet postings represent all of me, why, I should feel insulted  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 04:30:30
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I'm so happy...it makes me giddy...we are having a wonderful conversation and the thread isn't closed!
Wooly and Sage...you guys kick major arse! I love you man(s)! (hope they are men! lol).
No...seriously...it actually does my heart good to see that people can, even in the emotionless and non-visual vacuum of deep dark internet space, just talk.
It's rare.
As for me, I still love Erik's writing (for real...awesome stuff), think Westermeyer is a Pedantic Ass (that just made me laugh my guts out almost when I read that first) and should also mention that anyone from Virginia has got my vote because it be me homeland!
Anyway, hats off guys.
Ahhhh...anyone here ever drive to Blacksburg VA and stay at some weird dudes apartment so that they could run some Living Greyhawk modules?
Just asking... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Wooly and Sage...you guys kick major arse! I love you man(s)! (hope they are men! lol).
Yup, we're both men. Sage is married and has a little girl; his wife puts in annual appearances here. I, too, am married, and my son will arrive in May. 
It's not always easy being a moderator, but it's always nice to be told we're doing a good job at it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Wooly and Sage...you guys kick major arse! I love you man(s)! (hope they are men! lol).
Yup, we're both men. Sage is married and has a little girl; his wife puts in annual appearances here. I, too, am married, and my son will arrive in May.
It's not always easy being a moderator, but it's always nice to be told we're doing a good job at it.
I knew you were both men...just wanted to make you talk to me.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 11:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Perhaps there should be an Insult thread where each of us posts the mot vicious, nasty, poisonous message he can write. Then, when wondering if someone meant to be insulting, you could compare the post in question to the guy's official Insult message and perhaps decide, No, obviously, he didn't mean to be offensive. I can see that when he means to be offensive, he's a lot worse.
You should start that thread Richard |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 01:44:16
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Lately I do not have time anymore to log in daily (also thanks to corporate webfilter). Nevertheless I always try to catch up more or less once a week and I have to say I am a bit surprised by Erik's thread. I remember the comment on FR novels "niveau". Anyways I did not feels that comments or posts in general are less respectful than they were before. In general when it comes down to 4e-bashing (which thanks god is not a big issue anymore here and which was much worse than anything posted in the last few months) or whatever other thing, it is about one, two or three posters during a short period of time. I cannot really see anything that justifies CK to be classified this or that apart from running less traffic since the old lore became less relevant due to the time jump.
I for one would not consider Fr novels being of the highest literature quality level but hell do I love to read them! Honestly I couldn't care less if this is not enough for the Nobel in literature as long as it brightens my day after a long day of work. It is better than going to the movies, the perfect mind movie.
So why doesn't everyone just chill a bit. Those comments come and go every now and then. So what?
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 15:20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Perhaps there should be an Insult thread where each of us posts the mot vicious, nasty, poisonous message he can write. Then, when wondering if someone meant to be insulting, you could compare the post in question to the guy's official Insult message and perhaps decide, No, obviously, he didn't mean to be offensive. I can see that when he means to be offensive, he's a lot worse.
Nice! I like it.
Actually, I liked it for about 10 seconds, at which point I recalled the nature of the Internet. That nasty, poisonous message would be stripped of context and caveats, make the rounds of cyberspace, and end up defining the writer. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 01:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Perhaps there should be an Insult thread where each of us posts the mot vicious, nasty, poisonous message he can write. Then, when wondering if someone meant to be insulting, you could compare the post in question to the guy's official Insult message and perhaps decide, No, obviously, he didn't mean to be offensive. I can see that when he means to be offensive, he's a lot worse.
Nice! I like it.
Actually, I liked it for about 10 seconds, at which point I recalled the nature of the Internet. That nasty, poisonous message would be stripped of context and caveats, make the rounds of cyberspace, and end up defining the writer.
Very unhealthy, I believe. It doesn't help the authors nor the authors' fans. It will only cause a small fire that will inevitably turn to a conflagration. I don't see the need, really. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 01:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Wooly and Sage...you guys kick major arse! I love you man(s)! (hope they are men! lol).
I was scowling the entire time I was reading this thread. But I can't help but laugh at this. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 02:59:03
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Mods, so how bad is the Keep's reputation for being hostile to writers?
Should the Forums be shut down for a while so that ...... prudence may
be contemplated? |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:08:32
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| If it was truly such a hostile enviroment for Authors and Writers, I doubt so many of them would bother posting here. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Mods, so how bad is the Keep's reputation for being hostile to writers?
Should the Forums be shut down for a while so that ...... prudence may
be contemplated?
I don't think it should come to that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:27:04
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Maybe you don't, but consider this:
While in reality we may not be hostile to writers, one of our mods
have stated the reputation is there. I don't know about others,
but the writers are the main reason I frequent the halls, to get
questions answered from the writers. If they stop coming around,
one of the biggest resources that Candlekeep has over other fan
sites is wasted, and we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves. I would
much rather take some time off the forums (enforced sabbatical)
than lose that most precious of resources, the writers of the source material.
It's either that, or the mods go heavy handed. It's now
obvious (at least to me) from over several years since the
release of 4ed Realms that we as scribes are unable to police our own voices.
Look at the number of locked threads. They weren't there even 4 years ago when
I joined the Keep. And I believe that its going to get worse unless more drastic
measures are taken. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 04:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Mods, so how bad is the Keep's reputation for being hostile to writers?
Should the Forums be shut down for a while so that ...... prudence may
be contemplated?
I have no personal knowledge of how the Keep's reputation is. I don't frequent any other forums anymore, and even when I did, this was the only FR one.
I'll admit I've seen some unfair comments leveled at various writers/designers, but nowhere nearly as frequently as I've seen praise directed at them. And Sage, Big Al, and I try to keep things as civil as possible. It's an objective that some seem to enjoy making difficult, but most people seem more than willing to support it.
I have to wonder who is saying this kind of thing about us... Keep in mind, there have also been folks that said the Realms was too detailed, and that the Chosen were the Justice League of the Realms.
I'm not inclined to think shut down the site will improve people's temperments, either. People that like stirring things up will regard it as a victory, and the rest of us will be denied a comfortable online hang-out. I think the latter would be pretty damaging, in and of itself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:06:41
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Or you can be a little bit iron-fisted, Wooly. Same goes to Sage. Warn the violator 3 times, and at the fourth instance of same violation, block him/her from the site for a week or a month. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Maybe you don't, but consider this:
While in reality we may not be hostile to writers, one of our mods
have stated the reputation is there. I don't know about others,
but the writers are the main reason I frequent the halls, to get
questions answered from the writers. If they stop coming around,
one of the biggest resources that Candlekeep has over other fan
sites is wasted, and we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves. I would
much rather take some time off the forums (enforced sabbatical)
than lose that most precious of resources, the writers of the source material.
It's either that, or the mods go heavy handed. It's now
obvious (at least to me) from over several years since the
release of 4ed Realms that we as scribes are unable to police our own voices.
Look at the number of locked threads. They weren't there even 4 years ago when
I joined the Keep. And I believe that its going to get worse unless more drastic
measures are taken.
It's actually gotten a lot better than it was... It used to be that we couldn't even have a discussion about 4E without it getting overly heated. It still happens, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was.
A lot of the threads that have been closed in recent months have been closed because one or two people were determined to be disruptive, and/or because one or a few people ignored repeated warnings to damp it down. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Mods, so how bad is the Keep's reputation for being hostile to writers?
Should the Forums be shut down for a while so that ...... prudence may
be contemplated?
I have no personal knowledge of how the Keep's reputation is. I don't frequent any other forums anymore, and even when I did, this was the only FR one.
One board I regularly frequent still tends toward attitudes concerning Candlekeep's "apparent" anti-4e tendencies. And despite my efforts to ensure otherwise, there are those who maintain this attitude, even though they themselves have never visited here. They take it, simply, as word-of-mouth from others.
quote:
I'll admit I've seen some unfair comments leveled at various writers/designers, but nowhere nearly as frequently as I've seen praise directed at them. And Sage, Big Al, and I try to keep things as civil as possible. It's an objective that some seem to enjoy making difficult, but most people seem more than willing to support it.
Indeed. The truth of the matter is, even though these individuals may be in the wrong, they're still free to think as they wish, and conduct themselves accordingly -- so long as it doesn't breach the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct.
quote:
I'm not inclined to think shut down the site will improve people's temperments, either. People that like stirring things up will regard it as a victory, and the rest of us will be denied a comfortable online hang-out. I think the latter would be pretty damaging, in and of itself.
Besides, there's no guarantee of success either. Because, as I indicated above, there are even those non-members, who have never registered at Candlekeep, but continue to perpetuate the kinds of fallacies that this site is in someway devoted to bringing down WotC. And that's just idiocy of the highest order!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Or you can be a little bit iron-fisted, Wooly. Same goes to Sage. Warn the violator 3 times, and at the fourth instance of same violation, block him/her from the site for a week or a month.
We have policies firmly established for how transgressors of the CoC are to be dealt with. Rest assured, we take this decision process very seriously, and ensure that the interests of ALL scribes -- including those of the transgressor -- are considered. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:27:49
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*Bangs head*
This has in general been a sage haven for designers and authors to post. The idea of closing ir for even a second is something that makes no sense.
What might make sense, though up to moderation team, is remove users that attack these very valued members of candlekeep. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 06:24:00
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| I don't see how closing down the site temporarily would help anything, particularly since things seem less heated than they did a little while ago. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 06:49:52
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Here I am again. How does this keep happening to me? Probably it's the FR-love. I can't sit idly by and watch posters/scribes I respect and like in obvious distress, nor do I want to see the site have issues.
When I started this thread, it was never my intention to say Candlekeep is suffering a systemic problem. Obviously, I post here, RLB posts here, the various authors who've dropped by this thread post here, etc. I would only like to suggest that posters consider their tone before posting, and specifically consider the impact their words have on those who might otherwise have posted, but are driven away. It takes only a single post to confirm dire rumors you've heard about a site--is it so much to ask that people have a care with their words?
Again, I'm not suggesting restriction or policing of speech. You are responsible for what you say and what effect it has, and no one should tell you what you should or shouldn't be able to say. All I'm saying is BE responsible.
And be nice to people, even if you disagree.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 07:16:30
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On further reflection: The 'recent unpleasantness' here (i.e. since the dawn of 4E) has only been relatively unpleasant. What I mean is that a) in comparison to every other message board I frequent, CK is tame on the flame wars/hate threads/ personal attacks and that b) it seems like a problem b/c for so long, this was an utterly civil place, with people agreeing to disagree left and right.
I (personally) deeply value the interaction with writers and designers, (even those whose work I don't personally enjoy) simply because it's a great perspective to have. I am grateful that I am privy to a place where they spend time and hold forth, and I cringe when I see them unduly criticized or disrespected. Having said that, if any writer has 'left the Keep' over recent statements... well, that's their decision, isn't it? If CK has acquired a 'rep for treating authors/designers poorly', then I hadn't heard of it 'till now. I find it odd that such august personages as Ed, Elaine, SES, and George would continue to expend energy in a place where people are routinely disrespectful, and frankly I don't buy that this site is regarded as disrespectful to authors. I have been here for a few years as a poster, and many more as a lurker, and have NEVER seen a pattern of abusive or disrespectful behavior, which is amazing on a site with such light moderation.
The problem is this, IMO: There are no IQ tests to log on to the internet. Anyone can (and does, apparently) log onto CK to weigh in, and some of these people are disrespectful jerks (it should be noted that I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, or even anyone in particular... well, I am, but I think he's been banned  ). But the fact is that the vast, vast majority of the regular posters are thoughtful and respectful to authors and designers and each other the vast majority of the time. And when they are not, the authors/designers are generally very gracious in dealing with them. That, to me, IS civility.
I'm not sure what else there is to be said on the matter; I, for one am making an effort to be as clear and concise as possible in posting, omitting anything that could be misconstrued as disrespectful. I can only hope that I manage to do so successfully. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 08:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
If it was truly such a hostile enviroment for Authors and Writers, I doubt so many of them would bother posting here.
Ah, but we're talking about the perception, not the reality.
The only negative rep that CK has that I know of is among the WotC staff, where the common refrain I have personally heard is "don't go on the messageboards." Candlekeep is one of the ones they list in particular, but that's not necessarily an indication of it being worse than any other site--just that it's popular/memorable.
I know a good number of people who have waned in their posting or sworn off the site entirely, because of the edition warfare, or blanket dismissal of their work, etc. I am deeply saddened by this, but I completely understand and empathize with their choices and preferences. Having seen many threads where certain novels or certain series are viciously panned (for instance, in my memory, Baldur's Gate, Watercourse, and Lady Penitent have all received considerable vitriol), I can definitely see why an author or designer would hesitate to come on the boards. I myself have been fortunate in that much of my reception has been positive--either because people sincerely like my work, or I'm just not that widely read that everyone has an opinion.
And I'm not saying one should or shouldn't like (or claim to like) a particular book. I just think that there are better ways of expressing your opinion than thinking up the most creative metaphor for its worthlessness or irrelevance that you can.
I think we ought to encourage discussion like this--if something offends you, you should bring it up, simply because the odds are that whoever offended you didn't mean it in the least, and deserves a chance to make things right. I for one am uncomfortable talking about what I think if I know people might be offended by it and fail to tell me. You are all always encouraged to contact me when you feel you should.
I think that part of having a community where we feel free to have our opinions and express ourselves requires that we be open, honest, and respectful with one another. I have seen many, many opinions and reviews expressed that I don't agree with or have outright offended me, and I'd like the understanding and even expectation to be there that when one sees such a thing, one will express it--graciously and respectfully.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 12 Mar 2011 08:03:34 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 11:11:54
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| Post with maturity Scribes... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 12:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Perhaps there should be an Insult thread where each of us posts the mot vicious, nasty, poisonous message he can write. Then, when wondering if someone meant to be insulting, you could compare the post in question to the guy's official Insult message and perhaps decide, No, obviously, he didn't mean to be offensive. I can see that when he means to be offensive, he's a lot worse.
Nice! I like it.
Actually, I liked it for about 10 seconds, at which point I recalled the nature of the Internet. That nasty, poisonous message would be stripped of context and caveats, make the rounds of cyberspace, and end up defining the writer.
Very unhealthy, I believe. It doesn't help the authors nor the authors' fans. It will only cause a small fire that will inevitably turn to a conflagration. I don't see the need, really.
No one does, Dennis.
Which just goes to prove that humor, like insult, is extremely subjective. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 16:57:24
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Haven't posted this often in months, but here's my 2 cents.
Erik, I believe the reason why WotC say "do not go to Candlekeep" is because quite a few of us have been very critical of their policies (yours truly included), and not only have we been critical, we also gave (give) our opinions how things could have worked differently (and dare I say better?). As such, this sort of nose-rubbing that some of us have done is not very healthy for a company.
There are a whole lot of people here who care about the Realms, and there are bound to be different opinions. Some may just say: I don't like book XYZ and never go into detail, IMO these people just beg to be ignored. Then there are those who say they don't like the same book and give a boatload of reasons that do make sense, those are the dangerous comments, not to you the writer, once the manuscript is in print there is nothing you can do, but to the ones in charge, the ones that did not see the screw-ups, plot-holes etc. Those in charge see their errors reflected on them and they have trouble dealing with it.
Personally, I enjoyed Ghostwalker, and I told you so, but I haven't read your other works because I am not interested in the 4e Realms. I do like setting fiction, it has produced gems like FR's Empire Trilogy or SW's Heir to the Empire (those were picked at random, the list is longer), but it also has produced books that did not sit right with me (Black Fleet Crisis comes to mind). When I don't like a book, I put it aside, or I keep reading for a while longer to learn how NOT to do it. Hell, I put the first Wheel of Time book aside because it bored me to tears, matter of fact I tossed it aside earlier than LotR which also bored me. And I can and always will give specific reasons why I dislike something. With author created worlds the one being criticized is said author, with shared worlds it is the company owning the property, first and foremost. 11 years ago I thanked Troy Denning for writing Waterdeep (3rd Avatar book) because it saved the series. The first two books were... hard to digest. Why? They felt like cobbled together, which, if memory serves, they actually were because of writers not meeting deadlines, and me being able to read the die-rolls. Would have to read them again as it has been 14 years give or take.
If anyone ever felt insulted by my posts... I won't censor my mouth(or fingers rather) and say(write) what I think. And what I think I have made obvious in my various rants.
cheerio |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 17:17:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
If it was truly such a hostile enviroment for Authors and Writers, I doubt so many of them would bother posting here.
Ah, but we're talking about the perception, not the reality.
Ahh. Then I can only agree!
quote:
The only negative rep that CK has that I know of is among the WotC staff, where the common refrain I have personally heard is "don't go on the messageboards." Candlekeep is one of the ones they list in particular, but that's not necessarily an indication of it being worse than any other site--just that it's popular/memorable.
I can see that. Of course if Candekeep is memorable I suspect it's not because its a lion's den for flamming authors to their face. The mods wouldn't tolerate it. I suspect the "ouch" factor comes, as has been duscussed, from the reader to reader critiques some of which where pretty harsh, certainly I've both seen and discussed FR novels that took flak that way.
I think this is a point where there is a difference of perspective betweeen reader and writer and might lie at the crux of this. Certainly it's easy to forget that a thread between two scribes is, in fact, being read by many people, so its easy to say something in reply to an individual... and forget that the author of the work in question might be reading... and thus be far less tactful about it than they might have been if they were aware of the author's presence!
I suppose that is a little two-faced but it's a very human thing to do.
The flipside, of course, is that an author is seeing discussions as "feedback" both positive and negative of their work, due to perspective. The writer replies earlier in the thread lean that way and many mention how pointless this is after the fact. I think what may not be being fully considered is that a lot of reviews aren't intended as "feedback" to an author but rather as an IMO/FYI to other readers.
That can be done civilly of course, but I suspect if readers took on board that the writers might be reading their reviews they might excercise a bit more tact!
quote:
I think that part of having a community where we feel free to have our opinions and express ourselves requires that we be open, honest, and respectful with one another. I have seen many, many opinions and reviews expressed that I don't agree with or have outright offended me, and I'd like the understanding and even expectation to be there that when one sees such a thing, one will express it--graciously and respectfully.
Cheers
Agreed and while I think many will honestly try, I suspect human nature will make it difficult to live up to. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 12 Mar 2011 17:41:24 |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 21:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[quote]I think that part of having a community where we feel free to have our opinions and express ourselves requires that we be open, honest, and respectful with one another. I have seen many, many opinions and reviews expressed that I don't agree with or have outright offended me, and I'd like the understanding and even expectation to be there that when one sees such a thing, one will express it--graciously and respectfully.
Cheers
Agreed and while I think many will honestly try, I suspect human nature will make it difficult to live up to.
How would human nature make it difficult to live up to? I have been on this board a number of years, and the people here are by far more civil than on the internet in general. Yes, there are a few flamers, people here just to raise a fuss and watch the aftermath, but there are more friendly and respectful people here by far. I think that is human nature. The others are... aberrations.
I love this place. Being here and being able to have intelligent discourse with other people who have similar interests... it has helped me through some really tough times.
The people who come to CK and really get invested in what goes on here are some of the best people I have ever met. Some of the friends I have made here give me hope. I'm not always a silver lining person, but on here it's easier to be.
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Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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A Plea for Civility
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