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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 02:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
I still don't like that atheists and agnostics are essentially tortured into oblivion. Couldn't they share the same fate as the False? I guess its better than being food for Asmodeus, like the Godless in Planescape...
Well, that's the down side of living in a universe run by gods that have their power linked to the belief of their worshipers, one that has fixed alignments and the like. The deities don't take kindly to those who refuse to believe in them. From the gods' point of view, the punishment is quite fair--no one forced the people to be Faithless. They chose that belief. And there are consequences for that choice.
It's not pleasant, but it is fair, within the context of the Realms cosmology.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 07:34:13
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First: It's a great pleasure, Mr. Lowder. I'm glad to hear that you are busy making good stuff!
Second: If I recall correctly you were the last author to use Adon of Mystra in a book. And where you left him was a faithless soul in someones care (can't remember who). Can you give us any clue where you guys stowed that poor punching bag of a character? Did you have any plans for him that died in production?
Another question I have about Adon: was he originally meant to be in the position he was in at the end of Waterdeep when the design team finalised the Time of Troubles? When Mr. Ciencin first put pen to paper on Shadowdale did he know that Mystra and Cyric would become gods and Adon would get diddley?
I'm sure it's been asked before but I just have to know. Adon was my favorite character in that trilogy and I thought it was sad that he got nothing while all the other members of that august group eventually become dieties. Don't get me started on what YOU did to him. Also tell me if I missed a memo; did Mr. Denning touch on Adon in Crucible and I missed it?
Anyhow, once again, a pleasure
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There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
--Carl Jung |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 18:07:06
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| a honor to have you her Mr. Lowder since you are on the inside are there coming any books abut Cyric and your work was very good in Prince of Lies i greet you welcome |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 01:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Thysl
If I recall correctly you were the last author to use Adon of Mystra in a book. And where you left him was a faithless soul in someones care (can't remember who). Can you give us any clue where you guys stowed that poor punching bag of a character? Did you have any plans for him that died in production?
Hmmm. I recall having Adon show up in a cameo about seven or eight chapters into Prince, and then again toward the end, where he is tending the inmates in an asylum. I thought I left him there, but I could be wrong. (It's been a long time since I went over the whole book.) Are you certain you're not thinking of events from Troy Denning's book, Crucible?
quote:
Another question I have about Adon: was he originally meant to be in the position he was in at the end of Waterdeep when the design team finalised the Time of Troubles? When Mr. Ciencin first put pen to paper on Shadowdale did he know that Mystra and Cyric would become gods and Adon would get diddley?
Adon was intended, from the start, to be the one left behind in the mortal realms. And Cyric and Midnight were "fated" to become gods at the start of the Avatar Trilogy.
I always thought of Adon becoming, at the original trilogy's close, the mortal conscience of the characters who became gods. In fact, what Midnight and Cyric, and eventually Kelemvor, got from ascension was far less, in some important ways, than what they gave up when they stopped being mortal.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 09 Nov 2003 01:52:15 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 01:50:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
a honor to have you her Mr. Lowder since you are on the inside are there coming any books abut Cyric and your work was very good in Prince of Lies i greet you welcome.
Thanks for the kind words about Prince. Glad you enjoyed it.
Actually, I'm not on the inside with Wizards or the Realms these days. I haven't heard of any projects involving Cyric in the works, but that doesn't mean they might not have one planned.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 20:12:48
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Are you certain you're not thinking of events from Troy Denning's book, Crucible?
Ahhh, yes, I'm sorry, it was Mr. Denning that cracked Adon like an egg.
Here's another question Mr. Lowder: Was it ever in the design group's plan that Bane would eventually return or did you believe you where killing him for good? |
There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
--Carl Jung |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 02:29:59
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| Thinking about it, (and like others have said) it does seem to be a bit drastic that these faithless are eventually turned into building blocks in the Wall... Still I would think that ilmater or some other sickeningly goodly god would 'save' these people from this fate... If none will.. The It is high time there becomes a god of the faithless... Actually I think the one who has already 'died' of neglect would make an excellent God of the Faithless... What do you guys think? Should the Faithless besaved? ... Leave the false to rot though... one who is nothing but a Liar of Faith deserves no Redemption... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 05:24:31
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| I am in agreement Cardinal Deimos! Let the new god of the Faithless be Adon, the Unlucky! |
There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
--Carl Jung |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 01:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Thysl
[i]Here's another question Mr. Lowder: Was it ever in the design group's plan that Bane would eventually return or did you believe you where killing him for good?
When we were putting together the original trilogy, there wasn't much thought given to what would happen to Bane after Tantras, though he was clearly the most likely of "the Dead Three" to be brought back eventually.
When I started working out my proposal for Prince of Lies, though, I had the subject of Bane's return in mind for what would have been my sequel to Prince. The original working title for the Prince sequel was Revolt of the Shadows and dealt a lot with Cyric, Mask, and the return of Bane. But I parted ways with TSR and they assigned the sequel for Prince to someone else.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 01:18:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Thinking about it, (and like others have said) it does seem to be a bit drastic that these faithless are eventually turned into building blocks in the Wall... Still I would think that ilmater or some other sickeningly goodly god would 'save' these people from this fate... If none will.. The It is high time there becomes a god of the faithless... Actually I think the one who has already 'died' of neglect would make an excellent God of the Faithless... What do you guys think? Should the Faithless besaved? ... Leave the false to rot though... one who is nothing but a Liar of Faith deserves no Redemption...
It's an interesting idea, but the god might have to break the basic rules for how divine powers interact with the mortal realms. Gods derive their power from their faithful, so if you're the God of the Faithless, from whence does your power originate? If the faithless unknowingly "feed" the god, that takes away an aspect of free will--the mortals are seemingly forced to worhsip, even if they don't think they are or choose not to.
Interesting idea, though.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 02:49:17
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quote:
It's an interesting idea, but the god might have to break the basic rules for how divine powers interact with the mortal realms. Gods derive their power from their faithful, so if you're the God of the Faithless, from whence does your power originate? If the faithless unknowingly "feed" the god, that takes away an aspect of free will--the mortals are seemingly forced to worhsip, even if they don't think they are or choose not to.
Ahh intriguing JamesLowder...well met indeed. Similar to the ancient chinese philosophy saying u live ur life trying 2 achieve 1 goal, and that goal is 2 not achieve at anything. Basicly saying u try 2 avoid something so much u end up achiving it becuz u try so hard 2 avoid i |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 02:57:39
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I had fogotten about that decree of Ao  ,
So the road block has been hit... still there is always a detour
One must merely figure it out.
Still I would think that the raw desparation of someone going up to that fate (to become a wall) would win a few (if very few) points. Granted most build up these faith points in their life thus are claimed by some deity that they put faith in. The faithless lack the accumulation of such points (thus being faithless), however they have one thing going for them, and that would be the fact that in their life, all they have believed is wrong.
I mean you die, then there is various deities that take the faithful as you are ushered into a giant castle of bone to be judged by a rather stern deity, it would tend to make some people to plead for a second chance... (which is not unheard of in the realms ).
There are other hopes as well, Tanar'ri raids and Baatezu recruitment. Still I have a feeling that there is a rather obvious way around this to save these unfortunate souls... I just can't see it  Perhaps time will reveal it...In a bold strike of maddness and genius I hope 
One final thought (I promise I'll be quiet the ), The main reason I might think that drives an actual faithless to be faithless (rather than false), could be anger and hate. It is an odd way of thinking about it but looking within myself and wondering why one would be faithless; one answer lies paramount: P R I D E.
The faithless might not be faithless because of unknowing (which has driven my arguments thus) but on a ground of that the deities are little more than powerful children that strike awe and terror within mortals. This belief would drive one to hate these very powerful interlopers, and regard them little more than alternate versions of Fiends or Celestials who seem to like being worshiped and bowed to... (which could be supported if they ever met Gargauth who is such a being). Their vows on how a mortal should or should not live also could spur such thoughts (For example: My own characters that I would love to have worshiping Shar, her dogma says it is forbidden to plan ahead or strive to better one's own lot, thus a conflict of intrests  ). Still this anger for the deities does not really alternate me from my chosen arguement, for in essence they are correct as well. What gives the deity a right to stand in judgement of a mortal? (I realize that there may or may not be a public outcry in the keep but when have I ever thought before I speak? )
*Gets off soapbox.....for now* |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 11 Nov 2003 03:01:26 |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 16:32:47
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| Yes and i would just ask did you createt(the god) Cyric with him as mad or was this like he should be ? |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 19:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
Yes and i would just ask did you createt(the god) Cyric with him as mad or was this like he should be ?
Cyric became unhinged over the course of the original trilogy. The defining moment for his character was the scene in Tantras where he cuts the soldier's hamstring and justifies it to himself by saying "You'd do the same to me." (That was one of the specific scenes I wrote as an addition for Tantras after Scott Ciencin turned over his draft; because of time contraints, there wasn't really a lot of revision time.) Cyric's notion that self-interest is the primary motivation for everyone around him became more and more extreme as he does more extreme things to achieve his ambitions, and then tries to justify these evil deeds to himself with the philosophy.
To my way of thinking, Cyric knows deep down that he's lying to himself, that nobility is possible. But this makes him both insane (he both belives and rejects the truth, causing this rift) and an ideal god of deception. His entire philosophy, which is now a divine philosophy, and his existance as a god is founded upon lies.
So it was always my plan that Cyric be unhinged. And that's why I left him as I did at the end of Prince.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 19:17:04
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| did you feel that they change him in the Crucible for in the end he was difrent or so i tought, he was calm not crazy i tought he was even crazy in the Prince of lies. But any way a god book i hope we be hearing more from you in the forgotten realms |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 15:46:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
did you feel that they change him in the Crucible for in the end he was difrent or so i tought, he was calm not crazy i tought he was even crazy in the Prince of lies. But any way a god book i hope we be hearing more from you in the forgotten realms
Yes, at the end of Prince Cyric was unhinged. That was the intent.
I wasn't involved with Crucible in any way, so I had no say in the changes they made to Cyric or any of the other characters from Avatar or Prince of Lies.
Glad you enjoyed Prince, though. 
Cheers,
James Lowder |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 15:59:08
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I have played a character that did not follow a deity in a FR campaign. I played him in a sense where he did not follow any of the belief structures. He acknowledged that the gods exsisted he just didnt follow any beliefs, Chaotic nuetral characters in effect should have the greatest chance to be faithless.
Being faithless should mean that you dont follow any of the ideas, or the belief structure. you can still acknowledge the faiths but you dont follow them. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 09:28:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Trafaldi
I have played a character that did not follow a deity in a FR campaign. I played him in a sense where he did not follow any of the belief structures. He acknowledged that the gods exsisted he just didnt follow any beliefs, Chaotic nuetral characters in effect should have the greatest chance to be faithless.
Being faithless should mean that you dont follow any of the ideas, or the belief structure. you can still acknowledge the faiths but you dont follow them.
But wouldnt such characters know that they will end up in some hellish place upon their death for being a Faithless. In a world where someone KNOWS that gods exist and know the circumstances of not worshipping a deity, surely they would want to ensure their afterlife will be secured and not end up stuck in the wall of the City of Strife or whereever. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 15:01:47
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| Good point but i doesnt specify that you would go to some hellish place, the character may end up in limbo or some type of purgatory, personally i think there should be a purgatory for those that are faithless so they can be judged and it can be decided by something or someone where they should go. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Faithless in the Realms
