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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 11:16:43
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Something which has puzzled me lately, more so since reading Prince of Lies, is, in a world such as the Realms, how can there be any athiests\non-believers of the gods? Its clear that gods DO exist in the Realms as they appear in manifestations, the Avatar crisis, and with other sources and powers proving that there is "life after death". Why would any being wish to became faithless and have the worst fate upon them when they die?
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 12:13:47
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They go to fugue plane because they don't worship one particular deity. They may believe the concept of gods and call their names in dialy life. calling the gods' names don't mean worship him. Gwydon is a believer of Torm and a paladin however he went to to Cyric's lap because he wasn't living properly. Man has to devote himself to the god he believes, attend the rituals, pray and live in a way of his god approves to go to that god's realm
Being faithless is man's choise |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
Edited by - Jander Sunstar on 01 Nov 2003 12:15:31 |
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Fibura Gauntlet
Seeker
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 12:17:36
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quote:
Something which has puzzled me lately, more so since reading Prince of Lies, is, in a world such as the Realms, how can there be any athiests\non-believers of the gods?
Just because "some wizard" can cast a healing spell or two doesn't mean I should start believing all that good and evil stuff he spouts down at the temple 
Great subject  |
- Fibura Gauntlet
A scrib(bl)e on the margins of Candlekeep |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 16:26:58
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The question of atheism in D&D worlds has been discussed quite a bit, including by Gary Gygax on the GreyTalk mailing list and in his Living Fantasy sourcebook. Surely atheism is very rare in the Realms, but there's a continuum between the obsessively devout and the most secular people without much interest or respect for these powerful entities.
Before 1993, religion in the official Realms was an ordinary polytheism where most people pray to several gods on different occasions, many have one or two favoured gods who they associate with particularly, clerics alone truly devote themselves to one deity, and occasionally more than one. (And indeed, corruption and dishonesty are certainly known in Realms clergy, and people have reasons to be suspicious of priests, just as they have of mages.)
In Prince of Lies, James Lowder introduced the idea that the 'faithless' not committed strongly to a single god got this rather unpleasant afterlife stuck in a wall. This imposes a weird monotheist/polytheist hybrid theology, perhaps because Jim was uncomfortable with the original polytheism, I don't know. And now the sourcebooks have firmly embraced this idea, which I think is a shame, because I prefer the original version. |
Edited by - Faraer on 01 Nov 2003 19:43:14 |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 19:26:34
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Thanks everyone, some very interesting responses given there
I can see what youre saying about devotion there, Jander. I guess its quite out of the power of each of the gods to choose who is faithful to them or not. I highly recommend anyone who doesnt have a clear picture of FR deities and their worship to read Prince of Lies, it really opened up this area for me and I learnt a hell of a lot from it. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 22:08:00
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That wall could be a veritable army against the Gods.... if on;y one could find a way to pull others from it...
As for the Faithless... I do actually feel sympathetic towards them (not to be confused with the false). I actually is easy to simply state that the gods don't exist on Faerun (Very difficult mind you, after that whole Time of Troubles thing...) Still it is possible on a personal level... Some backwater village... Plant's still grow, crops still yield a bounty, etc. Besides.. One can avoid becoming a piece of the Wall...(Another Brick in the Wall!  Sorry couldn't resist ). Becoming a lingering Spirit, Ghoul, Zombie, Skeleton, Lich, etc. Could free you of that fate... ok maybe not the Skeleton or Zombie but you get the idea.. Necromancy my friends... Best way to take the gods on! WHOSE WITH ME?! *Crickets chirping* .... Umm guys... hello?... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 23:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
That wall could be a veritable army against the Gods.... if on;y one could find a way to pull others from it...
As for the Faithless... I do actually feel sympathetic towards them (not to be confused with the false). I actually is easy to simply state that the gods don't exist on Faerun (Very difficult mind you, after that whole Time of Troubles thing...) Still it is possible on a personal level... Some backwater village... Plant's still grow, crops still yield a bounty, etc. Besides.. One can avoid becoming a piece of the Wall...(Another Brick in the Wall! Sorry couldn't resist). Becoming a lingering Spirit, Ghoul, Zombie, Skeleton, Lich, etc. Could free you of that fate... ok maybe not the Skeleton or Zombie but you get the idea.. Necromancy my friends... Best way to take the gods on! WHOSE WITH ME?! *Crickets chirping* .... Umm guys... hello?...
ROFLMAO 
I see your point about backwater villages, Cardinal, but looking back at our own mediaeval history, I believe peasants and small villagers were in heavy religious beliefs as it helped get through the hardships of life. Back to the Realms, there is always some evidence somewhere in a land of such happenings that it is obvious that greater forces are at work. Surely the inhabitants would be scared NOT to worship, for fear of what would become of them in the afterlife!? |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 02:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The question of atheism in D&D worlds has been discussed quite a bit, including by Gary Gygax on the GreyTalk mailing list and in his Living Fantasy sourcebook. Surely atheism is very rare in the Realms, but there's a continuum between the obsessively devout and the most secular people without much interest or respect for these powerful entities.
Before 1993, religion in the official Realms was an ordinary polytheism where most people pray to several gods on different occasions, many have one or two favoured gods who they associate with particularly, clerics alone truly devote themselves to one deity, and occasionally more than one. (And indeed, corruption and dishonesty are certainly known in Realms clergy, and people have reasons to be suspicious of priests, just as they have of mages.)
In Prince of Lies, James Lowder introduced the idea that the 'faithless' not committed strongly to a single god got this rather unpleasant afterlife stuck in a wall. This imposes a weird monotheist/polytheist hybrid theology, perhaps because Jim was uncomfortable with the original polytheism, I don't know. And now the sourcebooks have firmly embraced this idea, which I think is a shame, because I prefer the original version.
You are incorrect about the "official" Realms prior to 1993, Faraer. You are mistaking Ed's campaign world with the official Realms. I remind you, they are not the same.
You also fail to recognize that the plot of Avatar meant a change in the structure of the afterlife, with a tyrant--a mad one at that--in charge of the Realm of the Dead.
Besides, there are faithless characters in a polytheistic society, too. There are rites and expectations that put obligations on the mortals. If they fail these, then they are faithless (or, in Realms parley, the False). Or there are those who try to weakly keep all the gods pleased, when their hearts are not in it. And some people would simply refuse to believe that the gods are GODS, not just powerful wizards or extraplanar beings. To the majority of the Realms-dwellers, this would seem daft. There is proof of the gods all over the place (note that Born Again Christians say the same thing about our world). But that still requires faith to accept. And some people just don't have it.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 02 Nov 2003 18:37:02 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 04:20:14
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Greetings, Mr. Lowder. We've a few members who'd probably like to meet you. (There's a guy lurking in the shadows here someplace that calls himself Cyric who sounds like he wants to read a certain book his namesake commissioned. )
On the subject of Faithlessness, you have to understand that atheism (no belief in religion) is rare even here. Most people confuse it with agnostism (belief in a supreme God or other force, just no particular creed.) I admit that America's idiotic policy on religion (specifically Christian symbolism) helps that along. (Why should there be any issue over a monument outside a courthouse when Congress starts each session with a prayer?)
It's also easy to confuse D&D religions with Christianity, it being what most of us are used to thinking of when someone says "religion." I think of D&D as like the old Greek religion. The emphasis was on ceremony, not theology, and there was no "true" god -- only a hierarchy of several. The gods also were viewed as more than human only because they were more powerful -- not because they weren't subject to human mistakes. Only Zeus and Apollo were ever thought of as all-good, and Zeus wasn't exactly known for his single-minded celebacy.
The only time there was ever a hint of any Greek being called a heretic was when they served Socrates a hemlock martini. (Shaken, not stirred. He was a man of class.  ) He had claimed that because the gods were subject to human frailies, they had no right to worship just because they had a lot of power. (Actually, it looks more like he was killed because he angered someone in Athens, who set him up as a scapegoat for loosing the Pelopenisian War by claiming that his teachings had undermined their youth.)
Finally, I don't believe the Faithless are in for such trouble these days. Kelemvor isn't like his predecessor. He won't be tossing people into a living wall just for the heck of it. I'm not sure what he's doing with them, but he judges each of them based on what they believed and what they did. (Which is, in itself, very Christian.)
By the way, I'm going to be playing a character who takes a view just like Socretes's -- the "gods" are just really powerful beings that don't deserve worship any more than people do. Here's hoping he survives meeting the party paladin. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 10:04:54
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Well Met James Lowder, and a pleasure it is to have you within Candlekeep
Yet again, Candlekeep have the honor of one of the Master Scribes of the Realms within our halls, and this opportunity has arisen to put your questions to this highly regarded author.
For those of you who are unaware (shame on you!), James Lowder is author of the following Realms novels:
Prince of Lies
Crusade
Ring of Winter
and the Ravenloft Novels:
Knight of the Black Rose
Spectre of the Black Rose (with Voronica Whitney-Robinson, also of Candlekeep)
As always, if you have any questions on James' work, then please send them to me, which will then be collated and put to James in the interrogation interview room.
Thank you. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 02 Nov 2003 10:14:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 13:01:23
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Since both the Bookwyrm and Mr Lowder touched briefly on some of the issues I was going to talk about (let that be a lesson to the rest of you...the consequences of not returning to Candlekeep on time  ), I guess I'll just quietly exit the room and leave....
But not before I have said "Welcome", to James Lowder. Another grand scribe of Realmslore has joined the peaceful community of scribes here at Candlekeep.
May I say, that on the behalf of every scribe here in the library, that we all look forward to your future input and discussion on all things Realmsian(?) .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Nov 2003 13:06:26 |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 14:59:34
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First, I want to salute you, Mr Lowder. Welcome to Candlekeep, it was an honour to see you in these mighty halls
Second, I believe D&D after Ao looks like scandinavian myth than Greek. Scandinavian myth also includes an mysterious overpower called Alfadur (Almighty) who created the world again after Ragnarok. Eventhough I don't like that overpower concept in polytheism, it clarified some issues about the deities. However in this situation gods look like more god like creatures who are capable of casting higher level spells and have powers granted by a greater being. For me if a mortal is capable of being a deity by overthrowing the older, it means they don't deserve to be worshiped. Gods' power depends on their divine rating if their worshipers give up they will vanish. So the people who think like that can be called as an atheist for Ao ignores earthly problems and prayers.The mystery of Ao concept and his ignorance can cause those people think that the whole issue is a part of the natural existence of time and space and here we have atheism in Fearun
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Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 15:26:44
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It is an honor indeed Mr. Lowder to have such a great writer in the library.You also edited several of the,"Realms books" besides the written novels that have been mentioned.Have we left anything out?
Hope you make many frequent visits to Candlekeep. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 18:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Greetings, Mr. Lowder. We've a few members who'd probably like to meet you. (There's a guy lurking in the shadows here someplace that calls himself Cyric who sounds like he wants to read a certain book his namesake commissioned. )
Thanks for the welcome. I've actually been reading the forums for a bit, but this topic was an inspiration to post :)
quote:
On the subject of Faithlessness, you have to understand that atheism (no belief in religion) is rare even here. Most people confuse it with agnostism (belief in a supreme God or other force, just no particular creed.)
Oh, aetheists would be rare in the Realms, but they would still exist. It would be far more likely for someone to be deemed False (those who failed to live up to the obligations of the gods) than Faithless. But there still would be those who refused to go down on bended knee before any supreme being.
In Prince of Lies, Cyric politicized the whole "judging in the afterlife" process. He made the definitions of False and Faithless much more strict. And, when Torm comes to free Gwydion, Cyric hangs him up on technicalities. This is predicated on the polytheistic structure of the afterlife. There's a whole web of gods and goddesses, each with power, each trying to gain more, each trying to prevent the others from doing the same. With that sort of struggle going on, the rules of interaction would be so complex, that someone like Cyric could easily manipulate them. While he is judge, the people who might have been let off back in Myrkul's day were deemed Faithless or False on technicalities.
This doesn't even get into the problems there would be between pantheons--though I hint at that in Ring of Winter, when in the book's conclusion, Pontifax is the subject of a jurisdiction debate between the Western and Chultan gods, so that he is left a ghost at the close.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 18:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by William of Waterdeep
It is an honor indeed Mr. Lowder to have such a great writer in the library.You also edited several of the,"Realms books" besides the written novels that have been mentioned.Have we left anything out?
Hope you make many frequent visits to Candlekeep.
I edited the first two Realms anthologies, and have a story in Realms of Mystery. I did some RPG material, too (Hall of Heroes, Jungles of Chult). Beyond that, I was the "line editor" for Realms fiction for a few years in the late 80s, early 90s.
All my more recent work has been outside the Realms, alas.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 02 Nov 2003 18:40:34 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 18:35:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
Second, I believe D&D after Ao looks like scandinavian myth than Greek. Scandinavian myth also includes an mysterious overpower called Alfadur (Almighty) who created the world again after Ragnarok.
The existance of Ao is indeed an issue in the divine politics of the Realms, and one that would color how the mortals view the gods. In fact, the whole Avatar crisis seriously impacted belief. There are surely still debates going on amongst scholars and theologians about what happened them.
Remember, you as a Realms reader know lots more about the upper levels of the divine structure than most people on the ground in Faerun. Most individuals have never seen a divine manifestation, at least one that could be seen as divine without faith coming into play. There are certainly stories of gods getting directly involved with the lives of mortals and priests who claim to get power from the gods--but maybe those are simply mages who are putting religious overtones on their power use from the Weave. Moreover, the worshippers of one god claim, in many instances, that what the other gods' faithful say is untrue. Who do you believe? Faith comes into play there, too.
It's all a matter of perspective, and mortals are going to interpret (and misinterpret) the things that happen around them based on what they "know" to be true through everyday experience and what they believe to be true. That results in some pretty wild divergences of belief. Cyric's ascendance has only sped up that process of confusion and competition between the gods.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 18:40:30
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Yes,Hall of Heroes & Jungles of Chult.I thought there was more as well as Realms of Mystery and the rest.Is the recent work outside the Realms,all for WotC? Can you name some of the books or settings?
*Looks over shoulder* I guess thats okay isn't it Alaundo?
Thanks for the response,Will |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 18:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by William of Waterdeep
Yes,Hall of Heroes & Jungles of Chult.I thought there was more as well as Realms of Mystery and the rest.Is the recent work outside the Realms,all for WotC? Can you name some of the books or settings?
*Looks over shoulder* I guess thats okay isn't it Alaundo?
Thanks for the response,Will
Thanks for asking, Will.
I haven't done any work for WotC, Realms or otherwise, since--let me see, '99 or so. I've been really busy writing and editing, just not for WotC.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 19:00:51
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quote:
Originally posted by William of Waterdeep
Yes,Hall of Heroes & Jungles of Chult.I thought there was more as well as Realms of Mystery and the rest.Is the recent work outside the Realms,all for WotC? Can you name some of the books or settings?
*Looks over shoulder* I guess thats okay isn't it Alaundo?
Thanks for the response,Will
Well Met
Hmmm, ohhhhhh im as intrigued as the next scribe! Ahem, er..... Realmslore within these halls only, you know the rules, William  Of course, James Lowder may have stepped in through a portal from another world, bearing information from such places....who am I to argue whats valid here |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 02 Nov 2003 19:01:10 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 19:58:36
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Hi Jim. I said 'official Realms' because that's what I read as being the case in the official Realms, based on its sources. For instance, the 'power(s) worshiped (if any)' line of the NPC writeups in the Old Grey Box list mostly one god but sometimes two; the first sentence of Prayers of the Faithful says '...know more and better prayers to serve their deity (or deities, for there are many who serve more than one divine name)', several instances of people praying to gods other than their patron (to Umberlee for safety at sea, or sick dwarves pray to Sharindlar, for instance); but no mention of the Wall of the Faithless and no deliberate emphasis on having a single patron.
And in fact, checking the introduction to Faiths & Avatars (1996), what I wrote is a fairly close paraphrase, though 'most have one or two favoured gods' would be more accurate than 'many...'.
What I was saying is that the 'faithless' idea entered with Prince of Lies, and that I don't like it. The process by which the Realms came to be what it is (its evolution before and after TSR bought it) is an important thing to understand about the Realms. (I agree with the rest of what you've posted here.) |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Nov 2003 20:21:58 |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 21:21:00
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1-Yes you are right Mr Lowder, simple folk doesn't have those divine info and many people are not wise enough to see what the ascending of a mortal means.But that was not the first Bane, Myrkul and Bane were once mortal and ascend with their own power and of course Jergal's will so I don't understand why Cyric's ascending sped up the competition
2-I think faithless makes sense especially under a lawful neutral deity's control. If every god has its domain why would they accept people don't worship them into their domain? There must be a place for them to go and a realm of the dead works well for this purpose. But after Jergal 2 seriously evil gods ruled this title. I believe that their rule was unfair, eventhough I don't know what was Myrkul's attitude I can assume that he was not more gentle than Cyric. It was like hell, to punish and torture. Treating everyone, including heroes or simple good folk that are not devoted to a particular god, that way doesn't make much sense. I believe there may be a bad judgement about this faithless handling in afterlife during a long reign of evil gods. It was not a balanced judgment. Why Ao didn't do anything about that or other gods of goodness? |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 21:40:46
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Alaundo said-
Quote:
Well Met
Hmmm, ohhhhhh im as intrigued as the next scribe! Ahem, er..... Realmslore within these halls only, you know the rules, William Of course, James Lowder may have stepped in through a portal from another world, bearing information from such places....who am I to argue whats valid here
_____________________________________________________________________
Will:
Thank you Master Alaundo
______________________________________________________________________
JamesLowder said-
Quote:
Thanks for asking, Will.
I haven't done any work for WotC, Realms or otherwise, since--let me see, '99 or so. I've been really busy writing and editing, just not for WotC.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
______________________________________________________________________
Will:
Could you give us some more specific information on what you have been working on,maybe book names or other general info.
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Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Hi Jim. I said 'official Realms' because that's what I read as being the case in the official Realms, based on its sources. For instance, the 'power(s) worshiped (if any)' line of the NPC writeups in the Old Grey Box list mostly one god but sometimes two; the first sentence of Prayers of the Faithful says '...know more and better prayers to serve their deity (or deities, for there are many who serve more than one divine name)', several instances of people praying to gods other than their patron (to Umberlee for safety at sea, or sick dwarves pray to Sharindlar, for instance); but no mention of the Wall of the Faithless and no deliberate emphasis on having a single patron.
And in fact, checking the introduction to Faiths & Avatars (1996), what I wrote is a fairly close paraphrase, though 'most have one or two favoured gods' would be more accurate than 'many...'.
What I was saying is that the 'faithless' idea entered with Prince of Lies, and that I don't like it. The process by which the Realms came to be what it is (its evolution before and after TSR bought it) is an important thing to understand about the Realms. (I agree with the rest of what you've posted here.)
Hi, Faraer:
I didn't create the idea that there would be faithless people in the Realms out of thin air. Nowhere does it say in the source material, as far as I recall, that everyone believes in the gods. I think it's therefore pretty logical that there would be those who don't. This is especialy true when you consider the fact that the gray boxed set includes info on cults and rival (non-human) pantheons and mentions gods that have fallen out of favor. With that many rival cosmologies, there have to be people who see the conflicts and choose to believe "none of the above."
So I'm taking something that would logically exist and drawing attention to it, not creating it or changing it.
There isn't anything in Prince that says that it is impossible to worship more than one god without being slammed with the False label. But the more sets of rules to which you make yourself beholden as a worshipper, the more likely you are to trip up. And depending upon the god or goddess you worship, you may not get much slack in the afterworld.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
Treating everyone, including heroes or simple good folk that are not devoted to a particular god, that way doesn't make much sense. I believe there may be a bad judgement about this faithless handling in afterlife during a long reign of evil gods. It was not a balanced judgment. Why Ao didn't do anything about that or other gods of goodness?
A very good question. Possible answers: 1) the Good-aligned can't act on this matter because of pantheon politics; 2) they haven't acted on it yet, but will; or 3) they realize that even these evil acts may be leading to a greater good (the Chaotic Good types might see that as OK).
There's lots there in the celestial politics to explore.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 02 Nov 2003 23:47:58 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by William of Waterdeep
Could you give us some more specific information on what you have been working on,maybe book names or other general info.
Hi, Will:
In terms of fiction, I've been publishing a lot of short stories, the two most recent being in the DAW anthology The Repentant and the Del Rey anthology Shadows Over Baker Street. I just signed a contract to write a creator-owned novel set in R.A. Salvatore's DemonWars world, Brotherhood of the Lost. The book will come out late in 2004. It came about specifically because of Prince of Lies, by the by; R.A. Salvatore read Prince and found the material on faith interesting. I also have a dark fantasy trilogy under consideration in New York, as well as some comic books I scripted coming out from Moonstone and the occasional RPG product from various companies.
As an editor I've been putting together a lot of anthologies: three zombie fiction books for Eden Studios, two Arthurian anthologies for Green Knight, two superhero fiction anthologies for Guardians of Order, and a pulp anthology for Hero Games.
Pretty busy, actually, with just about everyone but Wizards of the Coast
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 00:11:34
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Mr. Lowder,
Thank you so for being kind enough to take the time to answer our questions.You are very busy no doubt about that and so your free time is indeed a very precious gift you have given us.Also happy to see things looking ever bright in your future with all the irons you have in the fire! Finally I wish you all the best and continued success in everything you do.
Will |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 22:27:41
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I m so pleased to see Mr Lowder in these sacred halls, I cannot even ask him the questions in my mind because I want to see his posts again but I can ask questions about topic, can't I Mr Lowder?
I can think the reason for their ignorance can be their business with their own flock and resposibilies of their own title but I think even if they are not interested in those issues Ao cannot allow for the sake of balance because good cannot be punished like the evil but if the balance requieres every god should take their fa,thful to their domain it can make sense. However I think it is an evil thing to torture a good being for his or her goodness. I think if the realm of dead changes after Cyric and Myrkul followed the path of Jergal that we don't know how thing can differ a little bit. Ao may have given the permision for that particular plot so cyrinshad (I don't know if I recalled right)cannot be the only reason and Torm's news can triger that. Everything was for balance in all means
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Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 22:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder
quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
Treating everyone, including heroes or simple good folk that are not devoted to a particular god, that way doesn't make much sense. I believe there may be a bad judgement about this faithless handling in afterlife during a long reign of evil gods. It was not a balanced judgment. Why Ao didn't do anything about that or other gods of goodness?
A very good question. Possible answers: 1) the Good-aligned can't act on this matter because of pantheon politics; 2) they haven't acted on it yet, but will; or 3) they realize that even these evil acts may be leading to a greater good (the Chaotic Good types might see that as OK).
There's lots there in the celestial politics to explore.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
you may ask that where the question is in that above said things so I ask now: Can those mysterious points claified in your next book? Perhaps it is a secret but I dare to ask if my ideas make sense please respond |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 02:45:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
you may ask that where the question is in that above said things so I ask now: Can those mysterious points claified in your next book? Perhaps it is a secret but I dare to ask if my ideas make sense please respond
Jander:
I think that those issues are certainly worth covering in a book, but I'm not currently contracted for any new Realms novels.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 18:49:44
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| I still don't like that atheists and agnostics are essentially tortured into oblivion. Couldn't they share the same fate as the False? I guess its better than being food for Asmodeus, like the Godless in Planescape... |
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Bayne
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 00:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
I still don't like that atheists and agnostics are essentially tortured into oblivion. Couldn't they share the same fate as the False? I guess its better than being food for Asmodeus, like the Godless in Planescape...
I agree, it does seem rather unfair. |
Nindyn vel'uss kyorl nind ratha thalra elyhinn dal lil alust |
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Faithless in the Realms
