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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:41:29
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Do they like pretty rainbows and candy cane vally's full of gumdrop houses?
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
Edited by - Synthalus on 28 Feb 2011 21:07:32
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:45:34
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| They are an organization that is inherently evil and and there leader is Fzoul Chembryl chosen of Bane god of hatred, fear, and tyranny. Would this not make them in many ways very similar to the nazi party based on there historical tactics and mode of ethics? |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:54:01
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I don't think there is any similarity between the nazis and the Zhentarim that would not be shared by the majority of evil organizations in the realms. They are evil, that's about it.
Besides, I also try to avoid making comparison between nazis and anything else, because of Goldwin's law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:55:24
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| Lord Manshoon and his mages are like the gestapo of the zhents! they are a very intriguing organization within the FR campaign setting and there sinister plots remind me of the nazi party i could be wrong in this but thats my opinion. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:02:16
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Kilvan
a Very good observation!
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.
Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[6]
i add that in no way did it occur to me that i would be "THAT GUY" when making this post. I have know about Goldwin's law for some time now and simply did not even think about it when making this post there by authenticating it! I meant no offense to anyone i merly thought that the zhentarim being one of the larger evil organization in the FR that there must have been some influence for historical evil organizations that went into its creation. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
Edited by - Synthalus on 28 Feb 2011 21:05:02 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:02:49
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Nazis tried to exterminate a single people whom they deemed inferior as human beings, and to conquer the rest of the world through military tactics, two things that the Zhent do not do.
I also fail to see the similarities between Manshoon and the Gestapo. Sorry if I sound rude, but trying to make links between Nazis and anything else is a little bit too Fox-news/Glenn-Beck for me. |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:08:46
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| sorry about that Kilvan i changed the question so that its more forum friendly! oh and funnier if people read the comments! |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:09:48
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| To both the original comparison and the edited question; Nope, I'm just not seeing it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Nazis tried to exterminate a single people whom they deemed inferior as human beings, and to conquer the rest of the world through military tactics, two things that the Zhent do not do.
I also fail to see the similarities between Manshoon and the Gestapo. Sorry if I sound rude, but trying to make links between Nazis and anything else is a little bit too Fox-news/Glenn-Beck for me.
Indeed. I would say that the distinguishing factor of Nazi-ism (even beyond that of other Fascist organizations of the period, especially at first,) was the use of racial pseudo-science raised to the level of political tool and basis for their entire reason for being.
I don't think there are any DnD organizations that come close to this sort of political leaning, although I may be mistaken in that. I am aware that certain races, such as Beholder's, see all other races as beneath them but as the Nazi's weren't generally floating 8 foot wide balls of multi eyed nastiness I'm still not sure it analogy holds: Beholders have a definite lack of little moustaches and silly uniforms which is a plus point to them.  |
Edited by - Fingal on 28 Feb 2011 21:17:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:29:39
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Actually, I consider Cormyr to be Nazi. In the sense that the monarchy/nobility has installed a nearly totalitarian fascist regime. Not in the sense of nationalistic crusades and genocidal war ... though read Hitler's Mien Kampf and Greenwood's Cormyr then draw your own conclusions.
The Zhents are certainly dictatorial and fascist, just a lot more open and less euphemistic about being bastards to the populace (not every Zhentilar is a Zhentarim). I almost envision the Zhentarim as a bunch of old mafia cronies, led by a small pack of powerful territorial competitors. So perhaps it might be better to compare the Zhentarim to any kind of failed government (even capitalistic democracy) since the Black Network's position changes as often as the leadership in the ranks. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:30:30
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| I remember reading there's at least one setting where drow are given a very nazi-flavored culture and shifted to hardlined lawful evil instead of chaotic in order to cut down on Drizzt-like rogues and runaways. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I almost envision the Zhentarim as a bunch of old mafia cronies, led by a small pack of powerful territorial competitors. So perhaps it might be better to compare the Zhentarim to any kind of failed government (even capitalistic democracy) since the Black Network's position changes as often as the leadership in the ranks.
The Mafia similarity is one that has struck me before about the Zhentarim as well. They do seem far more like a good old fashioned crime family than anything else. I imagine that they control powerful waste management franchises across the Moon sea region. |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I remember reading there's at least one setting where drow are given a very nazi-flavored culture and shifted to hardlined lawful evil instead of chaotic in order to cut down on Drizzt-like rogues and runaways.
For a campaign that never, in the end, took place, I had started to think about a Drow offshoot who were very much Fascist. They would have been the antithesis of the traditional chaos and decadence Drow we all know and love. I would have had them worshiping a hitherto unknown Drow goddess who valued strength through discipline above all else. |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 22:31:49
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| thats a good idea fingal! let me know how that comes along, id like to use that in some of my own campaigns. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 22:36:56
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I don't see any real world group close to the Zhents, maybe the Venetians a bit, the way they strategically expand and manipulate trade, except the Zhents are less sea oriented.
Red Wizards have the racial superiority attitude and attack all the neighboring countries, but that is all. Not sure about the Vyshaan. |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 22:38:39
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| i personally think that the Zhentarim Do like pretty rainbows and candy cane vally's full of gumdrop houses. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 22:40:08
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| i'm just saying whats not to like about pretty rainbows and candy cane vally's full of gumdrop houses. Am i right or am i right! |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 23:44:13
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| Folks, I'm more than a bit uncomfortable with this discussion. Comparing fictitious groups to real-world groups can cause a lot of issues, and certain groups are more likely to stir up some serious negative commentary. I really should like to keep such comparisons very few and far between. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 01:50:54
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There are times when a fictional group is so obviously/likely inspired if not out and out based on a real world group that it bares at least mentioning if not outright discussing. This just isn't one of those times. For instance I don't think anyone can argue against Kara-tur being based of real life Asia.
Of course off the top of my head I can't think of a realms example getting as specific as an individual political party. Now, say, the Helghast in the video game series Killzone, they're very obviously based off Nazis. I don't think there's anything as clear cut in the realms, though. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 04:36:14
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| As I recall, Ed has stated that he purposefully set out to create new things for his Realms, and thus did not copy in any real world cultures, religions, or organizations (though TSR later did some of this, regardless). As such, it seems generally safe to say that there is no connection between the Zhents and the Nazis beyond the fact that they're generally bad people doing bad things. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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zhentarim
