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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 08:31:08
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I always thought of the Arcane Brotherhood as being the mage orginization of the north but then realized how weak and feeble they really are. I mean there leader is only level 18 and their other high-ranking members are barely topping ten (Dendybar, ruler of one of the towers, only being 12). Any one member of the Twisted Rune could obliterate the entire guild and the Red Wizards, although it may be an unfair comparison, have numerous epic-level mages within their ranks. So it may be up in a barely inhabitable region but who cares? Surely some evil, plotting epic-mage would see that they could potentially have an entire city at their mercy.
So now that my rant is over can someone explain or give any credence as to why this has not yet been done? Or perhaps try to tell me that I am wrong in my assumptions of them being a very minor faction of the realms.
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"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 12:23:23
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Level isn't everything. Mages are like any other kind of artist: some of them are astoundingly prolific hacks whilst others possess superior talent but lack drive and passion, the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle.
I've seen mage characters (players and canon alike) of crazy high level who play out as blandly uninspired walking spellbooks. I've also seen low-level mages aggressively ply their craft, devise numerous new magics, and use what little they have with surprising effect and avid creativity. Sometimes it almost seems like mages lose their spark upon maturity; access to 6th level spells and enough hit points to survive a couple hits seems to blunt their minds ... some of them succumb even earlier and once they reach 5th level they spend the rest of their lives solving every problem with a fireball.
Having said that, of course the higher level mage will prevail over the lower level one when all other factors are equal. But there are many factors. Any particular magic specialty, feat, spell, item, or artifact can make a tremendous difference when the right conditions are met: the Brotherhood might be uncontested because they ensure the conditional requisites for an important advantage are unfailingly maintained. Perhaps they can access a book containing superior spells, or an artifact (which nobody knows about because it is used sparingly)? Manshoon's trademark gimmick was his stasis clone spell, without it he (and possibly the Zhentarim) would have faltered long ago.
I think the best measure of the Brotherhood's competence - as individuals or as a group - is how much they've accomplished and how powerful they've made their organization without being megalevel epics. It might simply be that the Brotherhood's comparatively low power and membership actually forces them to work cooperatively and cohesively in order to survive against their more powerful (yet more divisive) evil competitors. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 12:24:08
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There's more to the Hosttower than it appears, I'm sure Khelben and Laeral wanted to take control there but only have placed wards. The Old Ones, Netherese liches of the Grand Cabal of Illusk are still there.
Character level does not fully determine power, Manshoon is level 19 for example and still a threat to El. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 12:55:15
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Actually Manshoon "started off" in FRC0 as level 16 (not even high enough to research or cast stasis clone), though he was still a threat to Elminster (then reported as level 26).
King Azoun is only around level 20. He might be bested in personal combat by a warrior (or backstabbing thief) of sufficient level and abilities. Azoun is also an arrogant self-righteous warmongering damned annoyance, you'd think somebody would've taken a good shot at him by now. But he's still sitting on his throne not due to his personal ability as much as those of his countless allies, underlings, and resources. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 14:32:53
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| Tis' true that what ammount of power one has differs from what one uses their power for. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 17:05:47
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Hmm... canon lore states Manshoon as lvl 25 I beelieve.
But the thing about the arcane brotherhood is that the real ruler might be the red wizards, who have the "weak" arcane brotherhood under their command!!! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 17:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Hmm... canon lore states Manshoon as lvl 25 I beelieve.
Well started off as level 16 as stated prior, but anyways, cannonically, Manshoon is of various levels. Depends on which clone you are referring to  . |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 18:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
There's more to the Hosttower than it appears, I'm sure Khelben and Laeral wanted to take control there but only have placed wards. The Old Ones, Netherese liches of the Grand Cabal of Illusk are still there.
THIS
The pirate lords are not the real power, but neither are the known wizards of the Hosttower. Like so many things conceived by Ed, each layer has yet another layer beneath it (in this case, literally). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 19:07:06
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Published stats are game conveniences, not 'canon'. There are so many factors affecting published character levels -- year-by-year inflation, authors pimping favourites, authors with different ideas of the scale or particular characters, levels added by editors hastily or without full information -- not to mention the fundamental guideline in the original campaign set that published stats are basically useful springboards for DMs' use in campaigns -- that I think very little can be solidly concluded from them as to how things are in the Realms. The actions and survival of a character or organization are certainly much more relevant information.
As another matter of practicality, no amount of extra levels will compensate for the disadvantage given up in tackling an archmage on his or her own known, tactically and magically prepared ground.
Even apart from this, like any secret society the Brotherhood acts by intrigue, dealing in secrets and investments and political leverage, with the personal magical might of its members being a useful back-up but not especially more relevant than the hand-to-hand combat ability of our-world business tycoons. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:37:33
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| My players are no longer surprised that the published stats aren't always correct in my game. We've justified it with the explanation that what you can learn from rumour and reputation is never guaranteed to be accurate; in fact, higher-ranking evil power groups are quite excellent at manipulating disinformation. You think the BBEG wizard is level 20 ... or is he level 15, or level 30? Only one way to find out with certainty. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:54:28
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I've always thought there were far, far too many ultra high level characters across the board in DnD. I think it got worse beyond 2e. I mean, any character who is over, what, level 10 should by all regards be considered pretty strong and surely for a wizard to reach such levels would suggest a long, long time learning his Art. Perhaps it is an example of how skewed things have become when an 18th level mage isn't considered terribly impressive.
I have always felt that characters over about level 12 should be rare, and characters reaching epic levels should be thought of as real bad hombres who probably deserve to be given as wide a berth as possible. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 21:28:12
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| Levels of the Arcane Brotherhood have fluctuated - the stats in Volo's Guide to the North were more impressive, but of course I agree with a lot of the other scribes - stats do not represent everything, especially at the higher levels. |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 07:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But the thing about the arcane brotherhood is that the real ruler might be the red wizards, who have the "weak" arcane brotherhood under their command!!!
Is this canon, fruit for thought or a widely accepted theory?
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It might simply be that the Brotherhood's comparatively low power and membership actually forces them to work cooperatively and cohesively in order to survive against their more powerful (yet more divisive) evil competitors.
I got the feeling that the Brotherhood was more corrupt or more likely to back-stab than most of the 'evil' mage organizations.
A understand what a lot of you are saying but why would someone like, say the Red Wizards or Twisted Rune, not want to crush them to prevent a possible opponent in the future from arising? Or expand their influence etc. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 08:29:38
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First, the potential gain isn't worth the immediate cost and later consequences. Trying to destroy the Hosttower by force, with all its wards, its members' contingencies and last-ditch summonable allies, would involve great sacrifice of resources and lives and probably blow up most of Luskan, which unless it was done incredibly carefully and subtly would sic the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers on you and everyone else opposed to instability in the North.
The Brotherhood's circle of influence is far west of Thay's, except in its more fantasy-prone wizards' imaginations. The Rune's does overlap, but it probably sees the Brotherhood as usefully balancing the forces of other foes, and may well fancy it's able to manipulate them at need for its own ends, as megalomaniac types tend to.
That's without looking up details, but those are the usual sorts of dynamics in why Realms intrigues are mainly slow-burning with only occasional swift campaigns of head-on strife. The Rune in particular puts its longevity and success down to acting through many tiers of agents, and its leaders' precisely leaving that kind of thing to those with less immortality on their side. |
Edited by - Faraer on 01 Mar 2011 08:36:31 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 09:12:49
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Trying to destroy the Hosttower by force, with all its wards, its members' contingencies and last-ditch summonable allies, would involve great sacrifice of resources and lives and probably blow up most of Luskan
Spoiler: You mean, pretty much exactly what happened in The Pirate King? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 11:15:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Trying to destroy the Hosttower by force, with all its wards, its members' contingencies and last-ditch summonable allies, would involve great sacrifice of resources and lives and probably blow up most of Luskan
Spoiler: You mean, pretty much exactly what happened in The Pirate King?
So true. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 15:37:13
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| I suppose that says something about the organization's quality when R.A. Salvatore, who judging by his work is probably one of the biggest proponents of quality in the quality vs quantity debate uses overwhelming numbers to defeat them. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Arcane Brotherhood - The Worst Mage Orginization
