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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 04:54:02
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Are there undead that rank above liches?
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 05:16:06
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| Demi-liches? Maybe an Atropal or whatever that stillborn god-let is called? |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
Edited by - Lady Fellshot on 23 Feb 2011 05:18:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 05:26:05
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| I'd categorize Larloch's state as being the ultimate form of undead in the Realms. As Ed has said in the past, Larloch has his own unique and "better" lichdom spells and necromantic processes which has allowed him to endure such a successfully long period of lichdom -- which I presume would undoubtedly rank higher than most other forms of lichdom, or even demi-lichdom. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 05:35:28
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He's an Ultralich. 
(Since 'Archlich' us already taken, and a bit of a misnomer at that).
Baelnorns might out-rank Liches - that one in the Calimemnon Crystal is 10,000+ years old (or somewhere there-abouts).
Ioulaum is also a strange (and unique, AFAWK), hybrid Lich (not sure if he is an Arcane lich, or a psionic one, or a little of both).
And then there is Orcus.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2011 05:35:54 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 05:35:34
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Draco-lich...much more powerful than a common lich in my book; still a lich though I guess.
One thought that occured to me...Sammaster First Speaker was supposed to be one of the most powerful liches of all time, even going into battle against Lathander (foolish as that was); it made me wonder if he had any dealings with Larloch. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 06:01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Draco-lich...much more powerful than a common lich in my book; still a lich though I guess.
One thought that occured to me...Sammaster First Speaker was supposed to be one of the most powerful liches of all time, even going into battle against Lathander
Wow, what was the result? Also is this written up somewhere? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 06:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Draco-lich...much more powerful than a common lich in my book; still a lich though I guess.
One thought that occured to me...Sammaster First Speaker was supposed to be one of the most powerful liches of all time, even going into battle against Lathander
Wow, what was the result? Also is this written up somewhere?
It's in Cult of the Dragon. Malanthius quoted it HERE. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 11:09:02
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| There are these special kind of liches with more xp, psionic (Dark Sun), elemental (Ravenloft), Suel (Greyhawk), master (Spelljammer), Inheritor (Mystara). |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 11:31:07
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| I'd rank atropals as the highest, with Atropus being the greatest of them. I mean, undead stillborn god baby, that's a few steps above lich in my book. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 11:42:18
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| Where can I find stats for the atropal? Is this also mentioned in any novels? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 11:50:07
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Demi-Lich (I may have this wrong because I'm french, but shouldn't a Demi-Lich be weaker than a Lich since its only half a lich, or does it mean half again a lich, or is it because many/most demi-liches are mostly just a skull head??)
While talking about Lichs (or it is Liches?), how do you pronounce it???? |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 11:56:55
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I recall reading about one atropal being the main villain for a novel, but I can't remember which one. I know there were stats for them in either 4e monster manual 1 or 2, though they go back to at least 3/3.5e.
As for liches, I've always pronounced it as rhyming with "rich", and that's how most people I've heard pronounce it. Apparently the word, originally being another word for corpse, was pronounced "like", but I'm someone who believes language changes and evolves over time and we shouldn't be nailed down to archaic rules just because they were written first. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 12:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Demi-Lich (I may have this wrong because I'm french, but shouldn't a Demi-Lich be weaker than a Lich since its only half a lich, or does it mean half again a lich, or is it because many/most demi-liches are mostly just a skull head??)
That always struck me as odd as well. But I think the "Demi" part is because of their size, not their rank. |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 12:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I've always pronounced it as rhyming with "rich", and that's how most people I've heard pronounce it. Apparently the word, originally being another word for corpse, was pronounced "like"...
Rhyming with "rich" is how I always pronounced it. I've heard it pronounced as "lick" a few times, haven't heard of it pronounced "like" till now. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 12:36:10
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Actually, come to think of it it might have been "lick" that was the original pronunciation; I'm working off memory from a discussion on the WoW boards from years back.
Speaking of wow, I liked their concept of "Archlich" much better than FR's version; Archlich in warcraft is simply a title held by the most powerful lich in a given organization. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 14:29:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Where can I find stats for the atropal? Is this also mentioned in any novels?
See the 3e Book of Vile Darkness tome.
I think it is actually in the libris mortis in the monster section.
EDIT: I just checked, it is actually an Atropal Scion, p.84. Not sure this is the same thing. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 23 Feb 2011 14:33:30 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 14:37:03
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| The full statistics and description for Antropals can be found in the Epic Level Handbook 3.0 p.159. Like anything in that book, it is quite powerful. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 20:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I recall reading about one atropal being the main villain for a novel, but I can't remember which one. I know there were stats for them in either 4e monster manual 1 or 2, though they go back to at least 3/3.5e.
Do you mean Xingax from the Haunted Lands trilogy?
As for pronunciation, I have always gone with the one that rhymes with rich.
I was actually going to start another thread with a few other lich questions but I will just ask them here since they are somewhat relevant. I recently bought some older RPG books off of Ebay and amongst them was a Monsterous Compendium (forgot the subtitle). It had, among other things, a psionic lich. I had never heard of this variety before this. So my questions are these:
What other types of liches exist? I know of the usual arcane variety (human, dracolich, drowlich, demilich, etc) and I have heard of a dry lich, so I mean what is there beyond those.
Are there examples of non standard (again by standard I mean arcane lich, dracolich, drow lich, etc) in the Realms? As in, are there any psionic liches, dry liiches, etc.? In novels or RPG material.
Is there an advantage or disadvantage to being a psionic lich as opposed to an arcane lich?
If a character were a psion and an arcane caster and became an arcane lich, would they retain their psionic abilities?
Any answers would be appreciated. |
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-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 20:29:59
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Draco-lich...much more powerful than a common lich in my book; still a lich though I guess.
One thought that occured to me...Sammaster First Speaker was supposed to be one of the most powerful liches of all time, even going into battle against Lathander
Wow, what was the result? Also is this written up somewhere?
Sammaster got *itch-slapped is what happened...but he was very impressive with his spells. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 20:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Someone (think it was Fellfire) suggested a vampiric lich.
That would be highly improbably (but never impossible  ), because any state of undeath negates the ability to become 'double dead'.
HOWEVER, since you can have werewolf vampires (Ravenloft) through the HIGHLY unlikely (and UNLUCKY!) event of getting bit by one of each BEFORE the curse sets in for each (and I believe the werewolf curse must take affect first, but I could be wrong on that one), it is possible through the same line of rasoning (get bit by a vamp while preparing for the Lich process, so it completes before the curse does). Still, it makes even less sense then the Werewolf one (because the Lycanthrope is still alive when the vampiric form takes over).
If a Ghost possesses a Zombie (maybe even it's own zombie-corpse!), would it then become an Animus? (Greyhawk - it's another form of 'living dead').
@Quale - What? No SJ Liches? 
I know there is some form of undead - perhaps several - associated with Phlogiston death.
Aren't Ancient Dead (Greater Mummies) on par with liches? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 23:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Quale - What? No SJ Liches?
Hmmm, I see the word Spelljammer in his post...
And I believe that the archlich was originally intro'ed in a Spelljammer supplement -- Lost Ships, written by our own Ed. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 23:40:00
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| Well, there are a few undead deities who top the list, one would suspect. And that demon lord thing the designers of D&D 4E loved oh so much that they code-named that edition after him/it. Utter bampottery, but what can you do? |
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Edited by - Zanan on 23 Feb 2011 23:40:30 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 04:22:31
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I used to not like Orcus very much, but I've warmed up to the 4e version. Maybe because of the awesome artwork that goes with him, or the discription of one of his cults I read in Dragon.
As for the question; Orcus may not actually be undead so much as he looks like he's undead. Hard to tell with demons. Vecna, a god-lich, might count, but he's not an order onto himself, just an extremely powerful version of a less powerful order. Same with Atropus, really, who's probably more powerful than either of them. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 05:19:02
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| Undeath in the normal context assumes a previous state of living as a mortal. It doesn't really apply to powers, deities, demon princes, and other beings who are sustained by faith. Undead status might be an historical, symbolic, or preferential manifestation; it's basically the same as any other avatar/body racial choice. Of course, the undead tend to consume the living, so being a lich-demon/god does cultivate a certain reputation. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 10:12:18
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Orcus hates the undead, they are only tools to him, he's not undead.
Only for a short time he was a shadow quasigod.
Things like nightshades and deathbringers have a higher CR, still lich feels more threatening.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Quale - What? No SJ Liches?
Hmmm, I see the word Spelljammer in his post...
And I believe that the archlich was originally intro'ed in a Spelljammer supplement -- Lost Ships, written by our own Ed.
The master lich from SJ is cool, there's the firelich of phlogiston but he's also 10,000 xp. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 11:40:51
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| Well, when you have something like atropals, which are undead stillborn gods, it makes you wonder if undeath really can apply to gods or not. There's a cult of Orcus in Points of Light, that I use in my realms, that wants to kill the goddess of death and raise her as an undead, putting her under Orcus' domain. The plan doesn't have full support, a lot of people point to Vecna as a case of an undead god being outside of Orcus' control. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 19:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
The full statistics and description for Antropals can be found in the Epic Level Handbook 3.0 p.159. Like anything in that book, it is quite powerful.
I'd never heard of this (even though I own the book), so I had to go look it up.
And good lord the artwork for it... one of the most disgusting monsters I've ever seen. 
Edit: Ah, I just realized, this atropal, or atropal scion anyway, is what the undead monster-baby-thing in The Haunted Lands series was supposed to be. Nasty.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 24 Feb 2011 19:45:48 |
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What is the highest order of undead?
