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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 11:38:55
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I forgot to note this down so I forget the details. There was a race of I think Northmen humans that I noticed in the old 1E The Savage Frontier, which they had either a +1 or +2 bonus to their wisdom.
Anyways, I don't recall mention of these people in Races of Faerūn, and (if anyone knows what I'm talking about, silly me forgetting the specific info from the book  - well its from the Peoples or similarly titled chapter of the book) does anyone know if they were simply retconned out, and if not, has anything more been written about them (I'm guessing maybe in the North boxed set since I haven't gone through that yet  )
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 17:51:28
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I know of:
The ancient Ice Hunters, Inuit/Eskimo sorts inhabiting the artic extremes.
Northmen (aka Northlanders), hardy viking sorts hailing throughout the Moonshaes and Sword Coast north of Waterdeep.
Reghedmen (aka Rengardt), barbarians of the Icewind Dale region.
Uthgardt, barbarians of everywhere else.
None of them gain any sort of Wis bonus that I recall. Perhaps you're thinking of a passage describing their shamans? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 18:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I know of:
The ancient Ice Hunters, Inuit/Eskimo sorts inhabiting the artic extremes.
Northmen (aka Northlanders), hardy viking sorts hailing throughout the Moonshaes and Sword Coast north of Waterdeep.
Reghedmen (aka Rengardt), barbarians of the Icewind Dale region.
Uthgardt, barbarians of everywhere else.
None of them gain any sort of Wis bonus that I recall. Perhaps you're thinking of a passage describing their shamans?
Wasn't Utgardt. May have been the Northmen, but definately it was a Human race with a racial bonus of +2 to wisdom (1E D&D) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 19:11:42
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Savage Frontier, pg.26 -quote:
GAME INFORMATION: Ice Hunters have higher wisdom than other peoples. An Ice Hunter character would add +2 to his Wisdom characteristic. Ice Hunters are usually of lawful alignments.
Note that I am not sure if the Ice Hunters, Snow People(?), Trael, and the Ulutiuns are all the same ethnicity, although they have very similar cultures (so I would give them all the same bonus). If anything, the Ulutiuns are the 'pure blooded' K-T aboriginal peoples that migrated over the top of the world (mentioned on pg.35 GHotR, -1648 entry), while the rest are varying degrees of cross-cultural admixture (I believe Ed stated in his thread that the 'Snow People' are related to the Reghadmen/Illusk peoples, and are tall and fair-featured). My best guess then would be that group were of the Northmen bloodline who became more like the Ulutiuns, and the Ice Hunters are similar in looks to Uthgardt with some ulutiun blood (and culture), and the Trael (mentioned in the Giants series) are some of the Netherease survivors who fled north into the Hartsvale region, but became barbaric and adopteda culture very similar to the Ulutiuns.
All four groups probably have varying degrees of 'Shou blood', but the Ulutiuns would be the purest (and the most visible in terms of looks). We are talking about 3000 years here for that original tribe of Issacortae to have blended with the easterners (and Issacortae themselves are not of pure Shou stock either). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 19:32:21
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"artic", ick that's embarassing.
The Ice Hunters basically used the "wilderness" kits from the PHBR books, yes?
I like your theory, Markus. But how could they have migrated from Shou? Surely they wouldn't have traversed the continent across arctic ice ... it seems more likely (to me) that they would have originated in warmer climes then migrated northward, which sort of complicates your suggestions a bit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 21:39:08
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There is an entry under The Northern Wastes in the K-T1 book that describes one particular clan of Issacortae that disappeared 'into the north' and the Land of the Snow Demons (which, BTW, is what the Utter North is referred to nearly planet-wide).
This bit was picked-up by either Krash or Brian James and they ran with it in that GHotR entry I mentioned above, and piece of lore was discussed in the wonderful Kara-Tur Redux thread over on the Wizards Boards.
The Endless Ice sea is the North Polar Ice Cap, and it is NOT always solid - channels form and and re-form all the time, and are seasonal - This according to Ed himself, in his thread, when I asked if The Great Ice Sea (Yal Tengri) was connected to the Sea of Floating Ice (around and above ten-Towns). That does not make the Fonstad map (FRA*) incorrect, it just means that map represents a period of time wen the entire pole was frozen-over (which happens cyclically over a period of a thousand years or so).
The Great Glacier (Pelvuria) is something altogether different, like 'The High ice' and the Reghed Glacier, and are connected to the Great Ice Sea periodically during 'little Ice Ages'. As of the beginning of the published Realms (1e/OGB), Faerūn was just coming out of one such period (note the recently unveiled lands of Vassa, which sat beneath the ice until the past few centuries). I don't think the cyclic nature of the deep-freezes is natural - I think that most are connected to 'Tear falls' - but I can't be 100% sure (at least a few are - one is mentioned in The Great Glacier).
Also, you must take into account that northern portion of the map is badly warped, and objects are closer then they appear - crossing from the Ama Basin to to the Great Glacier isn't nearly as far as you would think (although still plenty far, especially considering the conditions folks must travel through). The people of Pelvuria are descended from the aboriginal k-T peoples (which may or may not be 'the shou'), and they have mixed with other groups bordering their realm (Northmen/Snow People, Netherease/Trael, and Ice hunter/Angardt). Note that all of those groups are predominantly of the non-Issacortae (Shou?) bloodline - only enough mixing occurred to spread culture and slightly differentiate them from their 'parent group'. The Snow People show the least amount of admixture (and still retain much of their northmen ways as well).
Not sure if the Snow People migrated across the north of Netheril/High Ice naturally, or they came by portal (at least one other Northmen group wound up in the east that way: the Rus of Rashemen). Very few physical characteristic of the Ulutiiuns would be apparent in them, but the other two - the Ice Hunters and Trael - could be 50% or more of Ulutiun (Kara-Turran) stock, and it varies tribe by tribe.
Mostly conjecture, based on some of the human migratory patterns I have worked out (with a great amount of help from Tom Costa's language article). You want to know where a people have come from? Figure out what other languages theirs is similar to. 
*There is a polar-projection in the Forgotten Realms Atlas. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2011 21:51:46 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 21:51:25
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| That would suggest the Netherese are descendants of KT. Netheril started off with the same people who later became the Rengardt (and Northmen and Uthgardt), themselves quite possibly descended from the Ice Hunters. A RW analog would be comparing the Ice Hunters to the Inuit (migrated across the Bering from Asia) and the Rengardt/Netherese to Native Americans. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 22:18:57
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Nope.
It is my theory that the Netherease are descended from the Gur tribe, which is of Raumvari derivation (a Slavic-like caucasion people, and not oriental) from the Taan/Hordelands region.
The folk of Seventon (pre-Netheril) were barbarians hailing from the eastern Realms, that migrated across the Moonsea region.
AFTER the fall, various groups of them wound up all over the world, including even Halruaa (and Nimbral, IIRC). I wasn't going to connect the Trael to the Netherease, but somebody (in the GHotR) had the Netherease survivors that went North found Hartsvale (which defies other canon about the region). The only 'fix' I could come up with is that the survivors first sunk to barbarism - that could easily happen within one or two generations - and then founded Hartsvale under Hartkiller. I personally think the Giant-timeline is even more screwed-up by that, but whatever... it is what it is.
Check entries for -330 and -325 DR in the print (official) GHotR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2011 22:19:22 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 12:14:15
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Beaqt me to it, I got the info last night
But yeah Ice Hunters are the people. "Ancient Men of the North". |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:44:52
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| I remember that in the Netheril pdf there is a site with the remains of first humans of Toril, and the Ice Hunters are ancient people of the stone age, far older than the people from Kara-Tur who migrated there in the last age of Imaskar. |
z455t |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I remember that in the Netheril pdf there is a site with the remains of first humans of Toril, and the Ice Hunters are ancient people of the stone age, far older than the people from Kara-Tur who migrated there in the last age of Imaskar.
The Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set pdf?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:56:45
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| Is there any other Netheril pdf, no. |
z455t |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 19:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Is there any other Netheril pdf, no.
How the Mighty Are Fallen |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 21:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I remember that in the Netheril pdf there is a site with the remains of first humans of Toril, and the Ice Hunters are ancient people of the stone age, far older than the people from Kara-Tur who migrated there in the last age of Imaskar.
The Ice Hunters aren't necessarily the same group as that one - if it even says that, it could just be chalked-up to unreliable Netherease Historians.
The 'Ancient Humans' are the ones from that Realms of the Elves story, Traitors, by Richard Lee Byers. I've connected them to a theoretical 'northmen' proto-group (the pozi peoples), but that doesn't mean that the two pieces of lore can't be synced-up. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to lean-toward independent 'evolution' of the two 'ice cultures'. The environment would dictate many things on how a society develops, so the similarities can just be written-off as natural (cold) cultural development. Edit: and on the upside, we wouldn't have to assume the Ulutiuns should get the same +2Wis bonus.
Savage Frontier also says that the Ice Hunters were more centralized in the Western Heartlands (having been 'pushed' into the region of the Ice mountains) at some point, but the arrival of the Northmen (from the South!!!) forced them into the Spine-of-the-World region.
So now I'm leaning toward them being primarily Talfiric, and the Trael (human savages in the region of Hartsvale) as being a group of these with some admixture of Ulutiun (so the Trael - a giantish term - are actually Ice Hunters).
As for the Snow People being tall and fair (northmen), Ed has stated that the Northmen came from 'elsewhere' through a gate (they DID NOT come from the islands off the Swordcoast, as I used to think - SF makes that abundantly clear).
Couple that with some other known portal-lore in their regard (the Rus), one can imagine that the original human 'Creator Race' also made extensive use of portals, and probably had colonies in dozens of lands (and perhaps on other worlds), and that ancient portal-network was probably part of the Road of Stars and Shadows, and may actually include some of the portals previously thought to have been giant-crafted (the ones in the far north, in the realm of Jhothūn, discussed in the Perilous Gateways articles). what that means is that in primordial times, the Ancient Humans understood and used all these portals, but their descendants - the Northmen/Fair peoples - wind-up triggering them and falling through them by accident on occasion.quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
How the Mighty Are Fallen.
I thought that was a Pathfinder article about D&D. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2011 21:18:49 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 22:34:59
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| Two cultures is possible, take the name Ulu-tiu, Ulu is an Inuit knife, Tiu is Tyr's ancient name. My guess is that the Northmen gods were the same as the giant ones. There's more to the legend of Othea's betrayal, it's connected to the clash of the two peoples. |
z455t |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 23:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
How the Mighty Are Fallen.
I thought that was a Pathfinder article about D&D.
Yowch!  |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 15:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
How the Mighty Are Fallen.
I thought that was a Pathfinder article about D&D.
Yowch!
Even as a fan of 4E, I can get a laugh out of this shot.
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 17:47:14
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I'm glad you took it for what it was - I was just going for the laugh.
At this point I'm considering using MURPs.... Mark's Universal Role Play system.
I was thinking going with BURPs (for Basic...), but with 25 stats, there is NOTHING basic about it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 17:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm glad you took it for what it was - I was just going for the laugh.
At this point I'm considering using MURPs.... Mark's Universal Role Play system.
I was thinking going with BURPs (for Basic...), but with 25 stats, there is NOTHING basic about it.
That and all the gas that comes up... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 04:02:43
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Humans of the Great Glacier were originated by migrants from Northern Kara-Tur (RoF p109)
-1648 Hunters from Sossal get lost while searching for game on the Great Glacier. They eventually come to the Lugalpgotak Sea where they for a permanent settlement and become the precursors of the Iulutiuns (GG p6)
Another account has these settlers as hunters from Kara-Tur who merely stopped in Sossal for a time before moving further West into the Great Glacier (GHotR p35)
...who knows |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 13:46:52
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Found this info in The North in The Wildeerness book:
pg 14
Ice Hunters are noted for their wisdom (no mention of a bonus to wisdom for the race - this is 2e now)
BUT
pg 22 Ice Hunter Beast Cult Shman class and pg 24 Ice Guardians Specialty Priest both those classes for this race get a +2 bonus to wisdom |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Northern Humans with +2 wisdom bonus...
