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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 04:46:00
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| The point of d&d as a system and by proxy, the realms as a setting in that system, is that you can take what you like about it and change what you don't. Now, granted, some people having trouble showing definition in black skinned characters because it's trickier to shade when the base is already so dark is a fairly weak reason to change lore. But if some people like the change better, regardless of the reason, then "This was written first" is no reason to shackle them to the previous lore. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 04:51:28
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Nobody complains about orcs having grey, brown, orange, yellow, green, or blue skin across multiple editions, contrary to what is stated in the textual lore. Let alone changes in facial appearance, tusks, and such stuff.
So drow are like humans, or even klingons, available in a variety of colours and textures. Big deal. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 05:05:06
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| That's pretty much my exact thinking on the matter, Arik. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 05:51:44
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Definitely not blue irda. Blue is a popular orc (and ogre and goblinoid) colour, judging by painted figs, fan art, and other such stuff. I'm certain I've seen older TSR/WotC artwork (mostly on module covers because early interior illustrations were rarely colour) which depicts blue orcs. It's arguably possible that the orcs might have only been illuminated with bluish lighting, or wearing blue warpaint or something.
Blue is not described within the orc monster entries in any edition. I don't have a problem with that, some orcs are blue and some aren't. Sadly, they don't gain any "blue creature" sorts of abilities like resistance to lightning or frost breath weapon or whatever. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:02:16
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| I've seen some blue-ish green orcs in offical art, and some blue ones in fan art, but I don't think I've seen an official picture of an orc that was more than what I'd call a bluish shade of green. Still, they run the gambit. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:34:28
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I once dated a girl from western PA. When she was cleaning up a room she'd refer to it as "redding up the room". What I thought she meant "readying" but upon asking her about it, she said she meant "redding", but acknowledged that it probably started as someone with an accent saying "readying" and it getting mutated from there.
Point being, while I may indeed mean "gamut" (though I've never seen that word render as such in text before) I'm going to continue saying "gambit" out of habit. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:34:29
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| Perhaps blue orcs have compulsive proclivities towards risks and gambles? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:37:29
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| Only if red orcs run faster. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:38:03
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In the Illithiad, it is stated that Undead are feared by Mindflayers, because they can't see them (and they are unnaturally quiet as well).*
If that is true, then the same should apply to Drow. A Drow vampire would be a terror to other Drow, worse then human versions of same.
Of course, 3e retconed Infravision to Darkvision so that no longer applies (I still prefer the old version - it gave nearly all underdark natives a very crucial weakness, which offset their normal over-poweredness compared to surface dwellers). Cave darkness is TOTAL - Darkvision makes no sense, because their is NO light to amplify. Infravision or sonics (tremor sense) should be the norm for subterranean creatures. The drow darkness ability was designed to counter attacks by light, because Infravision could be blinded by a burst of light. Now light just becomes a bit of a nuisance.
*Illithids can usually 'see' non-warm creatures by detecting their minds, but most undead are mindless, and the ones that aren't are not subject to mental detection (their dead brains can't be read by Flayers). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:48:16
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| Agreed, MT. The Darkvision version makes little sence when there is no light to begin with. Maybe they were thinking of all that lovely fairie-fire the drow are so fond of using when they came up with it? They put the stuff on EVERYTHING. Perhaps they figured there would be natural fairie-fire ouside the cities, too. Or little fairie-fire signs or way-markers. I dunno. I prefer the infravision, myself. Most creatures that see in the dark either do it through heat, or echos, or heavy rod and cone placement. Darkvision would let a srow see about as well as a cat in darkness, but even cat's can't see in total darkness. Infravision would make them see more like a viper. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:55:50
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| Infravision has always made more sense to me as well. I believe that the level of detail that the drow, in particular, can see in far surpasses our own technology. Although, having said that, I'm not sure if certain thermal imaging equipment is not capable of "seeing" down to fractions of a degree either. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Feb 2011 08:05:29 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:58:08
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Part of the reason is that darkvision is easier to imagine than infravision. Most people think of Predator when they think of infrared. That's not what it really looks like.
Actual infravision in a cave wouldn't be much more advantagous than stumbling around blind. You'd be able to see living creatures, but you wouldn't be able to see(with much detail) walls, rocks, obstacles in the cave. You wouldn't even be able to see much in the way of detail of other people from any sort of distance; they'd just look like red/orange blobs in the shape of a person. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:02:50
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| I don't know how true that is CoA. The SFX in Predator were pretty close to what we see through a thermal camera, at close range. I've been collecting thermal photographs for some time for use in my Underdark campaign, and the level of detail is surprising. I have one of a house cat where you can actually see individual hairs and while background are for the most part a uniform color, much detail and contour can be made out. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Feb 2011 08:04:27 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:08:21
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWxMj64sKgM&feature=related
There's a good video for infravision. The main problem with Predator (one of my favorite movies, btw) is that in a jungle, the ambiant heat would render the humans near invisible. In a cave, everything but the other person would be difficult to impossible to distinquish. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:14:50
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| No links, sorry. I have been saving them, but a simple Google search will turn up much. Look for thermal imaging or photography. Bats, cats, rats, whatever. Even snakes and spiders. The exoskeleton insulates them, but they can be seen in astonishing detail. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Feb 2011 08:17:15 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:16:35
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Snakes also gain quite a bit of their sensory information through smell/taste with the forked tongue. All they need to know "is it an orange blob" Yes? "does it smell like food?" Yes? They eat it. "is it an orange blob shaped like me?" Yes. "Does it smell like it wants to have a good time?" Yes. They mate with it.
Drow interactions are slightly more complex than that. Only slightly, but still. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:19:07
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1E drow actually saw through ultravision. Though, UV-spectrum light would be entirely absent in an underground environ, since it's generated by sun and stars.
Low-light might not be as unfeasible as it seems. A little drow faerey fire goes a long way when combined with efficient light amplification eyeballs. There's also bioluminescence from all sorts of creatures, including fungi and molds which the drow specifically cultivate for this purpose. The strange magical Underdark radiations might also generate some tiny amount of light, even if only as intermittent faint sparkles. Plus the drow had access to fire, lanterns, and magical light spells even before they were cast into the darkness (possibly explaining why their nightvision has "evolved" into a half-useless form). Even basic (thermal) infravision is still good enough for drow to see each other and most of the common Underdark creatures.
Darkvision is a poor attempt to explain the simple fact that drow can see stuff in the dark. You can always ignore the letter (the bad physics) and accept the spirit (handwaved "magic") of darkvision as what it's intended to be. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:21:34
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| I use darkvision simply because I like the idea of people living in a black and white movie. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:34:25
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lol - the main problem with the thermographics from Predator is that they're a quarter-century behind current state of the art, plus they're dollied up by Hollywood so people unfamiliar with infrared can still easily recognize the imagery. We also understand that a living brain can learn to process the data much better than any of our current (and projected) technological developments. A drow toddler using infravision can probably recognize fine details like fingerprints just as well as we can using visual light.
Remember that infravision is heat based, so a drow might be able to read a book by running his hand across the pages, thus producing slightly different thermal colours wherever the dark ink absorbs heat and the paper doesn't. A drow can easily follow people around through their residual heat traces in the air, footprints, touched surfaces ... he can probably also tell how recent these signatures are and perhaps use them to identify type, number, or even specific individuals. He can easily determine if an object has been recently handled by simple visual inspection. He can tell if someone is feverish, fatigued, exerted, or chilled by simply looking at their body temperature. His eyesight isn't as accurate as a digital thermometer but it's probably not far off. He essentially gains all the information about heat/cold from his eyesight that we do from our sense of touch; he can even tell if his cookies have finished baking. It should also be remembered that elves of all kinds are noted for their superior visual acuity.
Some substances (like glass) are visually transparent but block infrared light, so a glass windowpane would look like a smooth "black" wall (or "gray" wall if some infrared light can still pass through). Other substances (like black garbage bags) are opaque to visual light yet entirely transparent (nearly invisible) to infravision, just like the black plastic "window" on your remote control that covers the IRED emitters. Of course a drow might still be able to "see" objects in both infrared and visual spectrums (at least red-spectrum) so hiding behind a sheet of glass might not always work very well. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Feb 2011 08:49:02 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:54:51
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Generally speaking I consider myself a reasonable GM. I listen to my players, work with them so everyone involved has a good time.
This is just one of the things I will not budge on. Creatures do not get infravision in my games. Its too much of a head ache to deal with. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:58:59
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Arik- the problem I see with low-light or "darkvision" is that that would really only work in the cities. Outside of their normally-traveled areas, where the luminescent fungi and fairie-fire are easy to find, they would indeed be virtually blind without some sort of light source. Underdark radiations are usually far from drow cities, for the simple reason that they interfere with some types of drow magic, like divinations or teleportation. So those would not be of much help. Away from cities, glowing fungi might be rare or simply hard to find, existing only in small isolated regions that are also frequented by creatures that feed on them, which in turn attract predators. Those areas would be dangerous for drow to travel in, so they would generally avoid them unless necessary. So the darkvision would only be useful in a city.
Even a casual look at the current thermo-imaging technology seems to lend it more credence as a viable way to see underground. All things give off some heat, even if it's only a very small amount. tunnel walls might have lava tubes running behind them, heating the rock itself, or there might be small amounts of phosphorescent minerals.Stone also retains heat quite well, so steam vents, passing creatures, and other things might leave heat traces in tunnels and caverns that drow could see. Incidentally, UV light is also generated by some radioactive minerals as well as stars, so that might not be so useless underground, either. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 09:37:24
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Perhaps drow adventurers and expeditions venturing away from populated centers simply need to add light sources to their usual supply lists, just as mariners or desert nomads require preparation for other essentials. Surface adventurers, too, need to bring light sources to navigate through the Underdark.
Plenty of magical items emit at least a little bit of light. As mentioned above, drow have access to all the usual light spells, torches, lanterns, and the like. They'd obviously augment their vision to drow-comfortable levels unless reason exists for stealth. They might in fact use modified light sources which are only visible to drow infravision/darkvision (RL military/security forces sometimes use infrared light sources, visible only to those equipped with infrared goggles). Their own body heat is probably sufficient to see in their immediate personal proximity, letting them tie their shoes, read maps, and sharpen their poisoned daggers; plus they can of course see each other. Drow sign language is given a range of 30', that might be the practical limit of their infravision in complete darkness.
Drow can of course use infravision and normal vision simultaneously, though with a few considerations, again the game rules were oversimplified. Just because somebody turns on a blue lightbulb doesn't mean you're suddenly "blind" insofar as seeing red objects. You might not see them as well, but you don't get penalized for having a wider range of sensitivity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 11:08:48
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I prefer darkvision to infravision (I had an excellent art from Elfwood portraying a meeting in darkvision...).
Keep in mind it works outside of normal light area, so a drow carrying a torch sees in the torch range in colorsand then 60 ft. past this in shades of gray. This explains the drow vanity. Faerie fire, small light spells and whatnot provide sufficient light for the drow to see in colors in their cities, and darkvision allows them to survive outside of them.
@ above: Darkvision does not rely on light being present, that is, it works when there's NO light at all. So that's not an issue. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 19:52:02
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*Curses the damn "Reset Fields" button. 2nd attempt to post!*
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I believe that the level of detail that the drow, in particular, can see in far surpasses our own technology. Although, having said that, I'm not sure if certain thermal imaging equipment is not capable of "seeing" down to fractions of a degree either.
The main problem with using RW thermal imaging equipment as an analog or example is that it is indirect or translational in nature, while drow infravision would be direct. Unlike drow, our human eyes don't see in infrared (IR)--we see in visible light (VL). Our tech takes an IR image and then translates it into VL, and then presents that VL image through a viewscreen or scope. And, as with everything, stuff gets lost in translation.
But just because our IR imaging tech is so limited, doesn't mean that drow infravision would similarly be, at all. Drow appear to see directly in the IR part of the spectrum. They do not appear to need any intermediary translational infrastructure or apparatus. (This is why I don't like MT's theory of an IR-filtering third eyelid for drow eyes). No translation = no loss of signal, no degradation of resolution, no excessive bleedover or washout, etc.
I have suggested that drow eyeballs contain organelles called "infra-rods" and "infra-cones" to allow them to see IR. In human eyes, rods are supposedly more sensitive to VL amplitude/brightness/grayscale contrast, and cones to frequency/color. Perhaps infra-rods are more sensitive to IR amplitude, intensity, or brightness; and infra-cones are more sensitive to IR frequency, wavelength, or color.
I don't have it all worked out, as I'm not a scientist. It is unclear to me what the practical difference would be between IR amplitude and frequency for a drow, as differences in heat are supposedly read as differences in color by drow. What does a hotter object have, in scientific terms: greater IR amplitude, or greater IR frequency?
I have also suggested that drow eyes might possess onboard IR beam emitters (hence the infamous glowing red eye effect). This would allow drow to see even in very cold environments. The IR emitting organelles within their eyes could "paint" an object or area, and then the infra-rods and infra-cones could detect differentials in the absorption and reflection characteristics of the substances, shapes, and textures on/within the object/area.
That would allow a drow to read a scroll or map even in the pitch black dark, or to navigate around even in a room that had been subjected to a freeze spell.
And after I've typed all this, I have just realized that it is possible that the glowing red eye effect might be the result of simple VL beam emitters in drow eyes, with some of the light lighting up the inside of their eyeballs, and this VL light could be what allows drow to have darkvision. It would be like flashlight eyes. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 20:19:43
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I doubt drow eyes naturally glow; light sensors made from lit tissue would be very inefficient, assuming the sensor and glow spectra overlap. Of course, magics (like wizard sight) can make their eyes glow for a time.
They do have reflective eyeshine, as do cats and many other animals, mentioned frequently through various novels. This is not at all the same thing as having invisible beam emitters in their eyes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 20:51:21
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| Well last eve it appeared that my eyes glowed, reflection from window. My eyes appeared to be of a yellow color. *shrugs* First time I saw the effect, might be last. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 21:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
<snip> Remember that infravision is heat based, so a drow might be able to read a book by running his hand across the pages, thus producing slightly different thermal colours wherever the dark ink absorbs heat and the paper doesn't. <snip>
Just WOW. 
{Markustay quickly grabs this post and runs off to his setting with it}
If you don't mind, that is - you just gave me the basis for an incredible piece of HB lore. The pages of a Drow book are made from a special, heat-resistant material (probably some lizard skin), and the ink is made from an alchemical formula that allows it to pick up residual heat quickly. Thus, all Drow books appear to be blank, but once you run your fingers over the text, it appears (to infravision) for a few seconds.
Bloody Genius!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2011 21:05:17 |
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Drow Skin Colour
