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John Fern
Acolyte
15 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 03:12:16
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Greetings, everyone.
I've been playing a Rogue recently using 4e rules, and I've been having a difficult time wrapping my head around what exactly the Martial Power source consists of in the forgotten realms. I understand the concept that it is essentially a being who has trained their physical skills to superhuman levels, but things start to get blurry at higher levels, especially epic.
For example, I plan on choosing the "Thief of Legend" as my epic destiny. It features a broad array of abilities that are seemingly supernatural, such as being able to steal an item and then transport that item to a place of your choosing across anywhere on that plane (Providing you've been there yourself) It also gives the ability to steal things intangible such as thoughts, memories, or colors.
It mentions in the fluff that you are able to bend reality, I guess I'm just looking for an explanation into how that works exactly, so I can work it into my character. I apologize if this is a bit nonsensical, I just like to know how things work exactly.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 03:44:52
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| Ok, John. This is a part of rules that will need of a consensus of you and your DM, IMO. The rule is well stated. But... how this "works" on the Realms? I (as an eternal DM) could put this as a blessing of Mask. A glimpse of "divine ascendance" showed to mortals, the ability of stole and hide away something anywhere in the same plane. :) |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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John Fern
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 04:33:57
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Thanks for the reply, friend.
I sort of figured we would have to homebrew the finer details a little bit. I'm still getting a handle on the fourth edition power sources. Being able to alter or bend reality a little bit at that power-level makes sense. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 05:13:51
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| Just something that already pop in my mind, to Martial Power Source, I recommend to take a look at Spartacus series. Some of the cuts, sidesteps, and moves, are definitely, beyond the humanity level. :) |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 15:20:50
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You're just so impressive that reality itself decides to cut you a break? 
I might explain it away also as having an awesome knack for knowing the right thing to do, whether it's intelligence, wisdom, or just luck. The thief of legend, for instance, might not actually transport things anywhere on a plane, but just have happened to have put it exactly where the player wants it to be. Think of the classic "ah, well, you want the Maltese Falcon, but *really* I just so happened to hide it in this perfect spot, rather than right where you thought I would!"
This might not work in every instance, but it's an idea.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 15:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Ok, John. This is a part of rules that will need of a consensus of you and your DM, IMO. The rule is well stated. But... how this "works" on the Realms? I (as an eternal DM) could put this as a blessing of Mask. A glimpse of "divine ascendance" showed to mortals, the ability of stole and hide away something anywhere in the same plane. :)
I'd go more with what Erik said rather than this, because this would be more Divine power source. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 15:37:55
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I like Erik's take.
To use a comic book analogy, I'd say that Batman draws on the Martial Power source (with maybe a bit of Shadow thrown in depending on who's writing him). There's nothing supernatural about him, but he's preternaturally talented and prepared. (Role? Striker leaning to controller I guess.)
And just to round things off, Superman's a Primal defender, Wonder Woman's a Divine controller, and Green Lantern (Alan Scott) is an Arcane leader.  |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 04 Mar 2011 17:28:20 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 16:54:22
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Martial heroes are larger than life athletes and warriors.
I like the comic book examples*. Also see Captain America, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, and a whole host of other heroes whose strength and accuracy might be enhanced, but it doesn't rely on magic or other supernatural talents so much as raw skill. Another one is Achilles in the movie Troy: he had no supernatural powers, but he was just so amazingly better as a fighter than anyone else. Perfect martial hero.
The high-level martial hero is someone who climbs Mount Everest on the weekend, walks a tightrope between skyscrapers, or consistently wins the fencing gold medal at the Olympics without a scratch. It's a combination of skill, resilience, and the will to succeed.
Cheers
* I think Batman is definitely a rogue, possibly with some non-psionic monk abilities. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 17:21:57
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I translate it as 'Ki' (or 'Chi'), which as we know from Wuxia films is a sort-of internal resource that people can 'tap-into' in order to perform super-human feats of stength, agility, and endurance.
Is it real? Who the hell knows... but Wuxia is just as much a fantasy-genre as any other, so it works for me.
And Orientals aren't the only ones who have 'martial arts' - MANY cultures have warriors that have undergone extreme training and were able to perform 'legendary' feats - mythology/folklore is rife with them.
There are also examples RW of people performing incredible feats of strength and endurance - folks who have lifted cars off of people, or cut off their own foot (or had both hands severed) and walked for miles for help. Ergo, we even have a real-life precedent for these sorts of 'para-normal' physical activities (its called shock and adrenaline). I realize that the stuff the fighters do in D&D goes WAY beyond that, but we have wizards throwing fireballs, priests that can speak with the dead, and thieves that can run up shear walls... why pick on martial-types? This IS fantasy, after all.
And seriously, not that I am taking sides here, but just what is the difference between 'powers', and some of the more ridiculous Martial Feats of 3e? Just look at some of the 3e Monk's abilities and you will see what I am talking about.
Just because WotC chose to name them 'powers' (giving them an unpleasant association to 'supers', IMHO) doesn't make them any less believable then what has gone before.
As for the explanation "abilities bestowed by deities".... *Meh*
I don't think 'the gods' have given mortals anything they didn't already have inside them. It is your own belief in your ability to perform an action which allows it to occur, not some uncaring psuedo-deity from another dimension. If you want your PCs to believe that, that's fine.... but it doesn't make it true. All 'the gods' did was give you the confidence (Faith) to go for it.
Remember, "The Cake is a Lie..." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2011 17:22:51 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 17:45:34
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I like the ki explanation (having witnessed long-time martial artists using it in real life). Though unfortunately, the 4e monk ended up being a psionic class, implying that ki comes from psionic power.
The martial "powers" in 4e (which are actually called Exploits for martial classes) are essentially just special moves, techniques, and tricks to get the better of your opponent. I know a few of those tricks myself in fencing, and there's nothing magical about it. It might just be the mechanics of the game that are tripping you up, I think--you see a similar basic construction to wizards and say "wow, fighters have magic powers just like mages? huh-what?"
But seriously, if you take umbrage with the martial classes presented in the PHB series, consider using the knight, slayer, and thief from the Heroes of the Fallen Lands, or the essentials assassin from DDI. These classes are generally limited to stances, movement techniques, and occasional combat trickery. As such, they might prove more believably non-magical than the others.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 17:56:22
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I'm getting ready to try out the Slayer in a new play-by-post game I'm in.
(See, play-by-post. That's what I have to do since you're selfishly running your new FR game in Seattle of all places.) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 18:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I'm getting ready to try out the Slayer in a new play-by-post game I'm in.
(See, play-by-post. That's what I have to do since you're selfishly running your new FR game in Seattle of all places.)
Well geez, CR. It's neither my fault nor the fault of Brian R. James that you can't make the trip every other week to play in our FR campaign. Until we go digital with it, in which case I've got your number.
But this is off topic! Yays!
Martial power FTW.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 18:19:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I like the ki explanation (having witnessed long-time martial artists using it in real life). Though unfortunately, the 4e monk ended up being a psionic class, implying that ki comes from psionic power.
You are over-thinking it.
'Ki' (Chi) comes from WILLPOWER, as does the ability to use psionic disciplines.
There is NO DIFFERENCE: Inner strength is INNER strength.
Its all about 'Mind over Matter'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2011 18:21:46 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 18:27:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I like the ki explanation (having witnessed long-time martial artists using it in real life). Though unfortunately, the 4e monk ended up being a psionic class, implying that ki comes from psionic power.
You are over-thinking it.
'Ki' (Chi) comes from WILLPOWER, as does the ability to use psionic disciplines.
There is NO DIFFERENCE: Inner strength is INNER strength.
Its all about 'Mind over Matter'.
Sorry Erik, I have to go with Markus on this one  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 18:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I like the ki explanation (having witnessed long-time martial artists using it in real life). Though unfortunately, the 4e monk ended up being a psionic class, implying that ki comes from psionic power.
You are over-thinking it.
'Ki' (Chi) comes from WILLPOWER, as does the ability to use psionic disciplines.
There is NO DIFFERENCE: Inner strength is INNER strength.
Its all about 'Mind over Matter'.
Sorry Erik, I have to go with Markus on this one
Let me clarify: *I* am not overthinking it. WOTC is overthinking it. Or maybe underthinking it? Regardless, by making the monk a psionic class, and specifying that he uses the psionic power source for his ki strikes, they are defining ki as a manifestation of psionic magic. (Interestingly, the shadow-wielding assassins from DDI pre-Essentials also used ki foci for their powers. So maybe ki is also the basis for shadow?)
I, on the other hand, largely share MT's opinion--that ki is not magic but inner strength, and it can apply to numerous disciplines that may have nothing to do with psionics, arcana, or whatever. I would be totally happy with having martial power characters channeling ki in order to pull off their powers.
(Though regarding that particular argument, I would ask what inborn sorcery is, then--is that also inner strength? What about the sort of innate divine power that favored souls wielded in 3.5 and invokers wield in 4e?)
Had it been up to me, the 4e monk would do basically exactly what he does now, except with the damage output modified and the flurry of blows altered for even more control. And thus would we have the martial controller.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 19:09:43
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| Ouch my head! In any case, Monks in 4E are awesome. I'm thinking of playing a Kobold Monk, shifting around then jump kicking everything |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 20:54:52
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Ack! 
I did not mean to offend in anyway - strangely, I was just giving an 'Apples are Apples' (rather then Apples & Oranges) argument for a change. You say 'Tû-mây-toe, I say Tû-ma-toe - that sort of thing.quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Though regarding that particular argument, I would ask what inborn sorcery is, then--is that also inner strength? What about the sort of innate divine power that favored souls wielded in 3.5 and invokers wield in 4e?
I have theory Erik (both in RL and in-game) that ALL 'magic' (which includes all of 4e's power sources) is innate, and it depends on the person on which source of power he chooses to draw from. This is why Ki can have multiple sources.
The sorcerer-concept first presented in 3e (and developed to greater potential in Pathfinder) was nothing new: I have a feeling that a LOT of Ed's original Realms revolved around the concept that ALL forms of 'magic' (including psionics) were inter-related. That means that a sorcerer is rather like a natural-talent psionicist who has learned to use his 'gifts' to channel arcane energies. Think about it - a psionicist has a level of 'awareness'* that most folks don't have - he doesn't need to learn spells; he senses their patterns and duplicates them. The sorcerer's bloodline simply gives them a greater 'eldritch' advantage over other casters, that's all.
Your class is 'what you are' - its how the outside world perceives you. However, the source you choose for your abilities truly defines you - it is the crux of your beliefs... your 'core being'.
For instance, take a Bender (from the anime Avatar) - his powers appear 'magical', and to some (D&D) observers they may call Benders 'Sorcerers', But why can't they simply be channeling Ki, which derives form the Martial power source? Ergo, you could have a sorcerer being empowered by the Martial power source, rather then anything Arcane.
A wizard learns what sources to draw from; a sorcerer has to discover these for himself. A Monk or a Psionicist may do either or a little of both. It doesn't matter - at the end of the day, it is your own belief in what you can accomplish that will move mountains.
I go back to the 'Potted plant' Feat some designer came up with for 3e (to replace at least 3 others). The theory is that if you truly believe the plant is granting you powers, then you will receive those powers. At the end of the day, it all comes down to Faith (but not necessarily religion).
An insane person who believes his 'magic pebble' has powers may actually be able to draw from that (in a magical D&D 'sphere'), if his true convictions lie in that direction (although I think most crazy folks' thoughts are too chaotic to focus that energy well enough).
So the Martial source is 'ki', which simply means 'universal energy' - the fighter/monk/barb/etc draws his power from whatever source is available, and translates it into physical feats of heroic proportion. Ki (or Chi) is NOT a power source unto itself - it is a system of belief that allows a warrior to push himself beyond normal human limits.
Another example is the Swordmage, which could be channeling ki, and yet be utilizing the Arcane Power source. I think, perhaps, the biggest mistake with 4e's system is that it was too hand-tying in regards to power sources. In fact, why even have them? It doesn't matter where someone gets their power from, it only matters what they accomplish. For a system that prides itself on simplicity, it seems to have developed an entire layer of rules that are unnecessary.
Not having played the system at all, and only beginning to get somewhat familiar with it, are they necessary? Do the power-sources work similar to the way Mana works in MtG? In other words, are the affects of certain other powers dependent upon what source they are enacting on?
And 'psionics' are the fantasy/Scify equivalent of RW 'psychic abilities', which are all about AWARENESS. Animals have it, and that means that most non-human races in D&D should have it. That special 'Awareness' is tied to the natural world around us, and humans have lost that. In D&D, this translates into Sorcerer having 'special blood' that allows them a little bit of this 'gift'. Elminster has it... that's what makes him so special; he doesn't just use The Weave, he can see it, and physically manipulate it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2011 21:15:52 |
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Defining Martial Power
