| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:16:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I discovered Lackey just a bit recently. Never did she use gay characters, at least in those novels I read so far. That's why I was surprised that she actually did in that series, and not just any gay character, but THE MAIN one.
I discover her years ago... I can't stand her. I've told my wife that if she ever buys me a Mercedes Lackey novel, we're going to have words! 
Yes, I remember you saying that in our OT discussion on Feist [in the Novels section], which lead to Wurts, to some other authors, and finally to Lackey. She's not that bad. Maybe you don't like the way she portrays griffons, which happen to be your favorite creatures? |
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:32:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ dennis- Actually, I recall that scene with Arclath and his mother, and I believe she was only being catty. Since they seem to hate each other so much, it was most likely a jab at him, and nothing more, especially given the fact that he was a quite frequent visitor of the "fest-hall" where Amarune worked. Not to mention the fact that he also hired her for an escort for a party, and seemed quite smitten with her throughout the book. If anything, his mother was just trying to get a rise out of him. No pun intended....
Here's Lady THO's take on Arclath:
quote:
Hi, Dennis!
No, Arclath's firmly heterosexual/straight.
However, he's what might in real-world historical terms be called a "dandy," as most male Cormyrean nobles of his generation are at the time of ELMINSTER MUST DIE! In other words, nobles (and some "wanna-be nobles") in this time and place dress flamboyantly, and adopt effeminate, jaunty, and flowery speech and mannerisms. It should be noted that the exaggerated vocal stylings of some real-world homosexuals are NOT known in the Realms (the vocabulary yes, the "voice" no).
It should also be borne in mind by everyone that in the Realms, males of all stations and lands often engage in physical touching with other males (hugs, sitting so thighs touch, even kissing kin and close friends) and weeping, without any of this behaviour being thought "gay" by anyone, or considered "gay" by those doing it.
(Lest it need to be underscored again: the Realms is not our real world, and vice versa.)
Feel free to share this on Candlekeep. Inquiring Scribes Should Know. 
love,
THO
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 22:38:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
tradwitch1313, you seem to like gay characters in high fantasy novels. You might enjoy The Last Herald-Mage Series by Mercedes Lackey. The MAIN character is gay, out, and proud!
Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series (Luck in the Shadows) has two gay main characters, though only friends and family know. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
|
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 22:51:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
There's the Steel Remains book by Richard Morgan
I actually bought that September last year. But until now I haven't yet read even a single page.
A friend of mine [who's also gay] pointed out that the said book's lurid homosexual scenes which are a din in so many reviews are vastly exaggerated. I have yet to agree or disagree, though.
I read his Takeshi Kovacs trilogy and 13, they are good. Not sure about this one, if I could relate to the character. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:44:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
There's the Steel Remains book by Richard Morgan
I actually bought that September last year. But until now I haven't yet read even a single page.
A friend of mine [who's also gay] pointed out that the said book's lurid homosexual scenes which are a din in so many reviews are vastly exaggerated. I have yet to agree or disagree, though.
I read his Takeshi Kovacs trilogy and 13, they are good. Not sure about this one, if I could relate to the character.
If you're queasy about reading detailed gay sex, which according to my friend and many others who read and reviewed the book, happened in about 4 chapters, then I suggest don't read it. But if you can forgo such queasiness in favor of superb storytelling [my friend's words], then go grab and read it. Just remember I warned you about the sex scenes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:51:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
tradwitch1313, you seem to like gay characters in high fantasy novels. You might enjoy The Last Herald-Mage Series by Mercedes Lackey. The MAIN character is gay, out, and proud!
Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series (Luck in the Shadows) has two gay main characters, though only friends and family know.
Never heard of that. Male or female gays?
----
What's with the word shadows these days? I just went to Fully Booked yesterday. I noticed more than thirty novels [yes, I counted them] in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Section and more than twenty in the General Fiction Section have shadows in their titles. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:00:58
|
| Well, seeing as I am a homosexual myself, it would only seem natural fr me t be interessted in other characters like me XD But please do tell more book series of tha are high fantasy with gay characters!!! :D |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:56:32
|
| Bit back on subkect...... no one answered my question on Even/Eladrin ideas ln homosexualty or if they ever mention it (the narratr or character) |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 01:18:50
|
| Not really a book series, but the lead game designer for the Rolemaster world setting "Shadow World" is openly gay. Aside from having designed a really amazing high fantasy world setting (it's just generally cool), there are gay characters dotted all over his campaign world (some stated to be so, others not so obvious). |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 01:54:21
|
| @ tradwitch1313- I don't think they really care. Elves seem to be a more sense-oriented race than humans, and anything that is pleasurable is probably okay with them. And given the sometimes decadent tendencies of gold elves in particular, I would not be surprised if they were generally open about it. That is not to say they are more effeminate as a race, but that they seem to enjoy ANY sort of sensual contact with others. Regardless of their own personal orientations. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:33:32
|
Which reminds me, I always wondered about Mirt the Money Lender.
Having had the pleasure of sharing the company of a few large, extroverted, aggressive men with hidden hearts of gold over the years, I could see it in him.
Hmm.... |
"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:51:21
|
| Decadent tendacies of Sun Elves.....where'd you hear this from?!?!?! :D I'm in love though, with my Star Elf sourcerer, Aerill Deir, f House Deir. He is gay too, if you didn't see tyat cmming. XD To me, for some reasn, the Eladrin seem to he the most understanding of all races. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:56:02
|
"Decadent tendacies of Sun Elves.....where'd you hear this from?!?!?!"
Um, the Crown Wars? Yeah, those pesky Vyshaan were a rather unruly bunch. Some of the Houses of Auryvaandar even went so far as to breed with demons, so... Yeah, I don't think they'd bat an eye at a bit of guy-on-guy. (Hey, that rhymed!) And then You've got Kymil getting himself hooked up with Lolth herself. (Granted, he didn't KNOW it was her until later, but still...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:08:17
|
| I dunno about Mirt. Then again, perhaps magical viagra-like herbs can be purchased in Waterdeep's black markets. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 07:31:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Well, seeing as I am a homosexual myself, it would only seem natural fr me t be interessted in other characters like me XD But please do tell more book series of tha are high fantasy with gay characters!!! :D
I think you will like Storm Constantine's Wraeththu Chronicles. The Wraeththu are the new supreme race composed solely of mankind's gay males. The narrator sometimes tends to make useless philosophical ramblings that don't help the plot at all. Other than that, everything else is excellent. I'm sure you can relate to some of the characters. The new race that Constantine elegantly created is very much interesting. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 07:32:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gouf
Which reminds me, I always wondered about Mirt the Money Lender.
Having had the pleasure of sharing the company of a few large, extroverted, aggressive men with hidden hearts of gold over the years, I could see it in him.
Hmm....
He's bi. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 07:34:57
|
When reading high fantasy and sword and sorcery fiction, I don’t really care about gay characters. I have plenty of GLBT books to choose from when I want to read about gay main characters. [In my current To-Read Stacks, I have 3 hardbound, 5 trade paperbacks, and 3 mass market paperbacks; not to mention 4 ebooks.] I would only care about the gay characters SO MUCH if the author presents them in ways that either insult the gay community or either obliquely or explicitly provides misconceptions about homosexuality [which so far I haven’t noticed in the fantasy novels I read; only in the GLBT ones---oh, there are alarmingly a plethora of them]. In The Last Herald-Mage, even though the gay main character died, I didn’t feel that it was poorly executed, nor did it show the inclination of not a few authors to portray gay love story in an unoriginal, infuriatingly tragic fashion. I saw his death coming. Besides, it’s not the first time that Lackey killed her main character. So it wasn’t a special case.
As for FR fiction, again, I normally don’t care whether the characters are gay or not. When I read FR and all other fantasy novels, what I look for are superb world-building, excellent characterization [with more focus on wizard characters], sensible and believable conflict, explosive magical battles, and unforgettable, satisfying ending. Also, I like it when the author [instead of explicitly saying this or that character is gay beyond doubt] only provides signs that show a character might be gay, as I myself do the same in my YA fantasy books. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 08:08:45
|
Perfect summary.
The fact that a given character is (or is not) gay is really of no consequence, in a way it's none of my business and I just don't care anyhow. Unless the character's sexuality is somehow critical to the story, pivotal, catalytic, whatever. Just the same as gay guys in real life, they drink beer talk sports complain about women just like all the other guys. Most authors don't bother to assign sexual labels to their characters, leaving readers to assume whatever they want. A few authors can portray gay characters realistically. Some can't, usually falling into exaggerations, stereotypes, and stupid cheap comedy. (I feel men should act like men and I roll my eyes when encountered by overdramatic effeminate queeny types. Regardless of their gender. Maybe that's why I judge comedy about such characters so harshly.) |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 08:50:47
|
I'd also like to note that there are authors who can't and refuse to defend their books [or the characters in them] when homosexuality becomes an issue. Which I really abhor. I personally know three here in my beloved homeland. Let's take Rowling as an example. She had been asked long before the release of HP7 [I think it was after HP5] if Dumbledore ever had a love interest. She simply said yes, and noted that she couldn't say more because it would spoil the following books. But months after the release of HP7, she said, when asked the same question, that Dumbledore was gay, and that he fell in love with rival wizard Gellert Grindewald. So outing a character is now considered a spoiler?! Amazing. She should have said, "I didn't tell you then because I was afraid it's going to hurt the sales!" She defended her books against a myriad of criticisms by almost all the religions in the world, yet she didn't have the nerve to out one of her main characters---the very role model of Harry Potter himself---at the time when it might have mattered. Again, simply amazing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 16:11:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd also like to note that there are authors who can't and refuse to defend their books [or the characters in them] when homosexuality becomes an issue. Which I really abhor. I personally know three here in my beloved homeland. Let's take Rowling as an example. She had been asked long before the release of HP7 [I think it was after HP5] if Dumbledore ever had a love interest. She simply said yes, and noted that she couldn't say more because it would spoil the following books. But months after the release of HP7, she said, when asked the same question, that Dumbledore was gay, and that he fell in love with rival wizard Gellert Grindewald. So outing a character is now considered a spoiler?! Amazing. She should have said, "I didn't tell you then because I was afraid it's going to hurt the sales!" She defended her books against a myriad of criticisms by almost all the religions in the world, yet she didn't have the nerve to out one of her main characters---the very role model of Harry Potter himself---at the time when it might have mattered. Again, simply amazing.
The whole thing about Dumbledore's sexuality seemed (to me at least) to be an odd after-the-fact tidbit of info. It never really was a plot point that affected the story, and Dumbledore's interaction with Grindewald just as easily read as "best friends" in the book.
Many recent books, movies, and TV have added gay characters, but only a few have managed to do it really well. The gay male relationship in the Caprica spinoff of Battlestar Galactica completely felt like it was just a publicity move by the producers. On the other hand, the lesbian relationship in Stargate Universe was really well done and even had some romantic scenes.
Given that Dumbledore's homosexuality had almost zero impact on the plot (I mean, could anyone tell based on just the books alone?), announcing it way after the books were read just felt really like the author was making a personal social statement. And a disconnected one.
If you're going to introduce any romantic or sexual component to a character, gay or straight, then it really should connect to the story and make sense for the character beyond just being a factoid. It doesn't have to be a love scene, or anything like that. But at least connect it to the character and make some sense with the overall story.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 18 Feb 2011 16:14:47 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 16:31:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think you will like Storm Constantine's Wraeththu Chronicles. The Wraeththu are the new supreme race composed solely of mankind's gay males. The narrator sometimes tends to make useless philosophical ramblings that don't help the plot at all. Other than that, everything else is excellent. I'm sure you can relate to some of the characters. The new race that Constantine elegantly created is very much interesting.
This is funny. The Wraeththu series is one that people either love or hate, without much in between. Technically, they're a race of mutant hermaphrodites (but also predatory, evil, and rather "yaoi"), not gay men per se. But in some ways they do act like stereotypical gay men, so a lot of readers think of them that way.
No offense, but with the constant, constant, constant sex involved (they're either doing it, thinking about it, or emo-whining about it), and the fact that they don't really form partnerships or long-lasting relationships, it is definitely a niche interest novel series. To me it just felt like it was an overly stereotypical gay sex fantasy (let's convert all the cute men and let all the women die), and overall it had very little depth. And as a race, the Wraeththu are all too perfect, too beautiful, too magically powerful (compared to the dying human population), and too obsessed with sex IMO. And they're really rather evil and uncaring. By contrast, the normal humans are all weak and rather helpless, and have lost much of their technology; very little fighting back against the predatory Wraeththu.
Written well in some ways, definitely. And some people do love the books. But it made me giggle constantly until I had to stop. It had a lot of potential with some very interesting themes to explore, but it was all spent in really shallow ways.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 18 Feb 2011 17:08:46 |
|
|
|
Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 17:29:13
|
Dumbledor's sexual orientation was apparent throughout the series; it should not have come as a surprise to anyone.
Are you saying that:
if a literary character possesses any a sexual/romantic orientation
then that character's sexual/romantic orientation must be demonstrated in the piece of literature in which they are portrayed?
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
Given that Dumbledore's homosexuality had almost zero impact on the plot (I mean, could anyone tell based on just the books alone?), announcing it way after the books were read just felt really like the author was making a personal social statement. And a disconnected one.
If you're going to introduce any romantic or sexual component to a character, gay or straight, then it really should connect to the story and make sense for the character beyond just being a factoid. It doesn't have to be a love scene, or anything like that. But at least connect it to the character and make some sense with the overall story.
|
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 17:48:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Are you saying that:
if a literary character possesses any a sexual/romantic orientation
then that character's sexual/romantic orientation must be demonstrated in the piece of literature in which they are portrayed?
I think she's saying it should only be portrayed if its relevant, and if then, it should really *be* relevant, and not just a "ooh look how progressive *I* am" moment.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 18:05:32
|
Indeed. You aren't intimating that Rowling was attempting to appear more progressive than she really was, do you?
What do you suppose would've been the effect of explicit elaboration into this characters sexuality? While Dumbledore's orientation was apparent to most, it was obviously not apparent to all...
I believe that Rowling chose the most sophisticated method to illustrate Dumbledore's sexuality. She chose not to throw in a bunch of stereotypes, while still making it clear that Dumbledore was gay.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Are you saying that:
if a literary character possesses any a sexual/romantic orientation
then that character's sexual/romantic orientation must be demonstrated in the piece of literature in which they are portrayed?
I think she's saying it should only be portrayed if its relevant, and if then, it should really *be* relevant, and not just a "ooh look how progressive *I* am" moment.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 18:14:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Are you saying that:
if a literary character possesses any a sexual/romantic orientation
then that character's sexual/romantic orientation must be demonstrated in the piece of literature in which they are portrayed?
I think she's saying it should only be portrayed if its relevant, and if then, it should really *be* relevant, and not just a "ooh look how progressive *I* am" moment.
Cheers
Exactly.
And Erdrick: I do pretty much believe that it was a publicity stunt to "out" Dumbledore after the fact. It's possible that it wasn't, but it certainly felt like it to me. I wouldn't mind being wrong, but that's what I think. It never occurred to me that Dumbledore might be gay. At times I wondered if Harry Potter might be, but not Dumbledore. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 18:51:07
|
| Do the computer games have substantial impact on the gayness of characters? MMORPG = Mostly Males Online Role Playing Girls, yes? The male avatars/characters are usually big hairy sweary macho men, while the females are invariably supermodel hot. I suppose that the game designers who do 3D models are mostly guys, and they probably don't like to spend their time detailing hot men. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 19:03:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
And Erdrick: I do pretty much believe that it was a publicity stunt to "out" Dumbledore after the fact. It's possible that it wasn't, but it certainly felt like it to me. I wouldn't mind being wrong, but that's what I think. It never occurred to me that Dumbledore might be gay. At times I wondered if Harry Potter might be, but not Dumbledore.
I have no idea as to Rowling's motivation. The way she did it looked a little like a publicity stunt, but the trouble is, since his sexuality did not influence the story in basically any way, this is exactly how I might have handled it had I written it. In fact, I *have* laced suggestions through novels of mine, and just haven't outright said anything. I mean, they did ask her a direct question, and she answered it. I don't feel like she was retconning anything.
About the computer game angle, a slight different point: One of the players in my 4e FR game, who plays an absolutely flaming character, has consistently been disappointed in his inability to find hot male minis. Granted, he has exacting taste, but it speaks to a weakness in the industry as to presenting a range of male attractiveness.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 21:36:06
|
| I know what you guys mean about te alost absece of male attractiveness. I pains me so much that I cn hardly make a hot guy in World of Warcraft without making a male blood ef (my favorite race in WoW btw). Male night elves could be attractve but ther bodies arw disproportined, human males hae awful faces, and I don't tuonk I need to get into the other races on their. I've gotten really tired of WoW so I don't really play it a lot anymore. Though on Neverwinter Nights 2 and Warhammer Online you can make hot guys :D |
|
|
|
Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 22:12:40
|
| ah no comment............ |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Male Homosexuality in the Realms
Topic Locked
