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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 00:51:01
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quote:
For the record, CoA, I agree with your initial reasoning being sound. That's certainly a reasonable case in which a drow might be more inclined to expressions of his impulses with male partners, rather than female. Do note that you should never *force* a player to play his/her character in any particular way (especially not in an aspect so potentially explosive), so the player in question is definitely within his rights to respond the way he did
Oh, yes, he was completely within his rights and it was a fair call. I never have my players do anything they aren't comfortable with. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 01:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Does anyone know where it s mentioned that Pharaun os homoexual? I presume it s ithe War f the Spider Queen seres, I have te frst two books of it. Always assumed that drw male homosexuality was a bit kore common than people thogt becase, yo lnw, Toer Brannach migt bring fth some feeongs te had n tr earts :D And about Chosen of Asmodeus's friend, I wouldn't feel comfortable playing a heterosexual male character,l of my male charscters are homosexal, like , lol.
Sorry, but AFAIK the drow Pharaun Mizzrym isn't gay. He had a sexual relationship with the female alu named Aliisza (and also other female drow). He might be what we consider "bisexual" although we just don't know.
Someone is probably speculating that Pharaun's friendship with Ryld Argith was "closer than friendship" but there isn't much evidence of this in the novel. They tended to rely on each other, and had a sort of trust (as much as a drow can have either trust or a friend in the way we know them). But typical of drow, Pharaun and Ryld's friendship (or at least trust) was damaged during the course of the series, and neither of them really lamented all that much about it.
I'm not sure that you'll find an actual character that you can point to and say that "this character is definitely 100% gay" in the Realms, for a couple of reasons. There's a LOT of speculation, mind you, more about certain female characters, but that's about it. Why is this the case?
- TSR didn't want to publish anything overtly sexual, nor does WotC.
- the books are rated for teens anyway, and not for adults.
and perhaps more importantly:
- in the Realms, homosexuality has no religious OR cultural stigma (so says Ed, the creator), and so it can't therefore add much drama to the story anyway. It's viewed as normal, although "bisexuality" might be a better term to describe various people in the Realms.
- things like "coming out" wouldn't occur to a Realmsian, and although people would tend to know about their (and others') preferences they wouldn't feel the need to label it. People are just people in the Realms, and they might have a preference that leans one way or the other, but it's not treated as an identity issue as it is in Western society.
The truth for the drow is probably that most of them have had gay/bisexual contact on multiple occasions, because that's just a part of their society and their games of love-play. But they don't feel love (unless you're very rare, like Drizzt). Pharaun, Ryld, Jarlaxle, Q'arlynd, many other drow males have probably partaken in some orgy of large proportions and did the deed with another male, but they generally don't connect lustful party play with love, and the drow almost uniformly view falling in love as a dangerous trap to be avoided at all costs.
On the topside Realms, you probably have committed relationships and real love between men, and just as much sexual party play with gay/bi contact as the drow (festhalls are popular all over the Realms). The big difference is that unlike the drow it can actually lead to more than just play. But again, it's not viewed as a big deal.
As far as committed relationships, (and this is my speculation) in the Realms you wouldn't have marriages for gay couples but you might see life-long partnerships. Lots of people speculate about Calednei and Alusair as a committed lesbian couple, for example. But marriages in the Realms are mostly just for legal purposes, to determine and continue lines of inheritance for titles and money.
Bear in mind: there's no religious stigma or judgment whatsoever about exclusively gay couples (unlike real world Western society), but if a gay couple wanted a marriage it would likely puzzle the priest. Marriages have all sorts of connotations in the real world that just don't exist in the Realms, and a lot of commoner "straight" couples might not even have a formal marriage / license.
quote:
Ewww..... Dwarf homosexuals? *shivers*I'm stickig to my gay Eladrin/Elves, Aasimars, Genasi, Vampires, and Humans, thank you :)
LOL, and lastly, about dwarven gay males: if the real world can have "bears" in the gay community, then it's a sure bet that somewhere in the Realms there's a gay dwarf or ten, or twenty. Human and elves lend more easily to the "twink" type of gay perhaps, but Ed's very fond of saying that pretty much all expressions of sexuality are viewed as both normal and okay -except- for situations where sex is forced or in situations where children are the sexual object. Most realms in the Realms will view forced sex, and sex with children, as serious crimes. But pretty much everything else goes and people generally don't care.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 16 Feb 2011 02:07:23 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 02:21:38
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| Uhhhh XD I hae twinks and bears lol my characters don't embody the ridiculous stereo types of society. My characters are peope of their people, if that makes any sense. I only like muscular guys so that is wha my male characters embody (not the body building freaks! bt i like them ripped, know what I mean?) But any way, I'm a teen ad would love to have a gay character in a story. In fact, I'm writing my own stories and the main characters are homosexual males. But about the Realms being completely uncaring about gay relaionships I already knew from another source, but it's always good to hear it from more official places :) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 04:34:05
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| Hrm- regarding Phaeraun and Ryld, although it was never really stated one way or another, there did seem to e some sort of closer relationship going on at certain points of the series, at least in the first book. After that, their friendship was strained by a "betrayal", so it's possible that whatever their relationship might have been was lost. When I read the series, I had the distinct impression that Phaeraun was, even if Ryld was not, and since Ryld was the one who later fell in love with Halisstra, that still left Phaeraun as a possibility. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 07:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Or how would this be viewed among the Netherese and Shades?
The Old Netheril was a conglomeration of traditions and practices. What was true and practiced in one enclave might not be true and avoided in another, as each sovereign archwizard had his own selfish [though at times reasonable] rules in his domain. So it’s rather difficult to infer if they as one empire viewed homosexuality with disdain or accepted it as something ordinary and [for some] inevitable.
With the possible exception of those who were deity-bound, like the Selunarrans, who, of course, put their goddess above all, the Netherese valued power and unmatched mastery of magic above everything else. Anything that could possibly stunt it would be derided or scorned, and perhaps, even dealt with harsh physical punishment. I don’t see homosexuality as that kind of problem. Hence, if it really existed then, it was most probably accepted. Note that most archwizards--- the most powerful individuals in the empire--- were males. Some ambitious lowly wizards could have very well used their ‘charm’ to gain their superiors’ favor by ‘keeping them warm’ during their cold, lonely nights. Moreover, the master-apprentice relationship among the Netherese sometimes involved people of the same sex: Karsus and Shadow [Telamont], Lady Polaris and Sysquemalyn, the Terraseer and Congenio, Sadebreth and Tolodine. It’s not uncommon that that type of close relationship sometimes lead to an amorous one, and such might have been the case with a few Netherese.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 09:00:12
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| To counter what Eltheron is saying, from the answers I've gotten from Ed and I've seen from Ed, it's no so much that there is no prejudice or bais against homosexuality, just that there is generally considerably less prejudice against it than in the real world. He's made it clear that while for the most part, it isn't a major issue, some places may have a greater bais than others, some religious sects(not whole faiths, just certain sects) may be against it, so on and so forth. Again, anti-homosexual feelings don't run rampant in the realms, but it is a varied place of varied attitudes. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 10:48:57
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| it was made very obvious of marek rymuts sexuality in the watercourse trilogy. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 11:31:15
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Regarding the dwarves, I thought about it due to in the game Dragon Age: Origins, in the brothel, my brother would have his Male Character choose the dwarf for nightly companionship...
The Dwarf says something along the lines of "Everyone picks the dwarf! short pause unhhhh!!".
Sooooooooo anyways, needless to say, the male gay relationship in that game is with the elf male, which is likely due to the fact that elves fit the "male homosexual" image most of us may have (as opposed to Dwarves), but Erik makes a good point about how dwarves in FR can easily (pardon the pun) get into each other in such a way. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 14:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
To counter what Eltheron is saying, from the answers I've gotten from Ed and I've seen from Ed, it's no so much that there is no prejudice or bais against homosexuality, just that there is generally considerably less prejudice against it than in the real world. He's made it clear that while for the most part, it isn't a major issue, some places may have a greater bais than others, some religious sects(not whole faiths, just certain sects) may be against it, so on and so forth. Again, anti-homosexual feelings don't run rampant in the realms, but it is a varied place of varied attitudes.
Would you provide references / sources to Ed's quotes on this? I've never seen Ed suggest that there is "greater bias" in certain places, nor have I seen him say that certain religious sects are anti-homosexual.
If what you're saying is true, then I need to update my information. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 15:43:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll admit they're more open than they used to be, but I'd like to point out that in Spellfire, Lhaeo said that outside of Elminster's tower, he was thought of as a "simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate." He wasn't, and that's revealed later in the book -- but at least it's been mentioned practically from the beginning.
That seems more along the lines of a derogative about one's sexuality (like any of a dozen offensive words we could use), which is really common among men, and less a real indication of *actual* sexuality, but sure, that is an instance of it coming up.
Contrast that reference-as-an-insult with the much more upbeat reference to the Lady of Elversult and her female consort in the 3e FRCS. Granted, that's an implication of female homosexuality as opposed to male, but a *sex-positive* (or at least neutral) reference to alternative sexualities is not something we would see in the TSR days.
(Based on my ongoing 4e FR campaign, which I run for several gay men up here in Seattle, i can assure you that the Realms is quite fabulous, don't you worry.  )
Re: Pharaun: I'm going to use the same defense I used for Arclath--Pharaun is a dandy, and so projects that sort of (what we would call) metrosexual image. As to his actual sexuality, aside from some drow-style bro-mance with Ryld, all his canonical expressions of himself seem to be in regard to female partners.
From a writer's perspective, there isn't a lot of point saying emphasizing the orientation of one or more characters because it doesn't matter much to fiction or game products. This is because we're mostly focused on their sword-and-sorcery adventure, rather than their romantic arcs. It's when a character's actions are influenced by his impulses/desires, that's when it becomes relevant.
Cheers
P.S. I will point out, for the record, that there are several characters in my last novel Downshadow who are intended to come off as homosexually-oriented--some closeted, some open. I think I might have made it too subtle, though, as no one has brought the issue up. I guess maybe this will stay an easter egg for the time being . . . |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 16:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(Based on my ongoing 4e FR campaign, which I run for several gay men up here in Seattle, i can assure you that the Realms is quite fabulous, don't you worry. )
Oh my!  That's hawt! 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 18:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll admit they're more open than they used to be, but I'd like to point out that in Spellfire, Lhaeo said that outside of Elminster's tower, he was thought of as a "simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate." He wasn't, and that's revealed later in the book -- but at least it's been mentioned practically from the beginning.
That seems more along the lines of a derogative about one's sexuality (like any of a dozen offensive words we could use), which is really common among men, and less a real indication of *actual* sexuality, but sure, that is an instance of it coming up.
Indeed. I just wanted to emphasize that earlier references were there, even if the characters in question were hetero. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 19:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
To counter what Eltheron is saying, from the answers I've gotten from Ed and I've seen from Ed, it's no so much that there is no prejudice or bais against homosexuality, just that there is generally considerably less prejudice against it than in the real world. He's made it clear that while for the most part, it isn't a major issue, some places may have a greater bais than others, some religious sects(not whole faiths, just certain sects) may be against it, so on and so forth. Again, anti-homosexual feelings don't run rampant in the realms, but it is a varied place of varied attitudes.
Would you provide references / sources to Ed's quotes on this? I've never seen Ed suggest that there is "greater bias" in certain places, nor have I seen him say that certain religious sects are anti-homosexual.
If what you're saying is true, then I need to update my information.
From last year's Ask Ed thread, 11/7/10, page 89.
quote:
Hi again, everyone. I bring Ed's response to this, from Chosen of Asmodeus: ". . . but the discussion did raise the question as to what the general attitudes towards homosexuality/bisexuality (both male and female) in drow society specifically, and the realms in general, are? Where is it considered a taboo? Where, if anywhere, is it seen as perfectly acceptable?"
Ed replies:
As in our real world, attitudes towards sex, sexual mores and expression, and sexual "orientation" (for want of a better term) vary widely from place to place and person to person. In general, tolerance of a wide variety of sexual practices (including interracial sex, which of course doesn't in the Realms mean unions or dalliances among humans of different skin hues, but literally between different species, from lizardfolk to pixies, and elves to hobgoblins (not to mention all the shapeshifters, such as dragons and doppelgangers) is greater in large "crossroads" urban centers such as Waterdeep, less in smaller ports (Waterdeep, Suzail), a little less in inland trade-moots such as Crimmor and Scornubel, a little less in market-towns, then a shade less along busy trade-routes that caravans ply, and the least in rural communities (in true wilderness, anything goes, because it's reduced to the level of individuals). Certain faiths in the pantheistic Realms (where everyone "believes" in ALL gods, and most folk actively worship more than one deity, daily) have various rules about sexual practices, and where those faiths are locally dominant, their doctrines influence local mores. However, wide-open tolerance and absolute taboos are rare, anywhere.
Among drow, specifically, the various drow cities are sharply independent of each other (except in cases where a strong city dominates nearby neighbors), and have widely different forms of government and laws (for instance, the matriarchal Lolth-worshipping rival-noble-houses society we see in Menzo is frequent and widespread, but not universal; in some drow societies, the open rivalries we see in, say, Bob's trilogy of Drizzt's youth would be seen as treason to the entire city, and would NOT be tolerated). So again, I can't give any hard-and-fast rules about sexual rules and attitudes, beyond saying that in the matriarchal drow societies, female priests can generally do as they please (have sexual relationships with each other, and all handy males) and males can't generally do as they please, sexually.
The game leaves sexual matters largely unspoken-of both to avoid offending customers (some gamers, and their parents) and to allow a DM and players to tailor "their" D&D games and "their" Realms to styles of play they most enjoy and are comfortable with. In short, if everyone around the gaming table is an adult feeling randy, the game can reflect that - - but if children or embarrassed and impressionable young adults are present, sex can be utterly absent from game play. (I'll avoid the inevitable moral debate about slaughtering monsters being okay and at the heart of the game, but sex, including tender and loving lovemaking, being omitted.)
So the short answer is: there are no hard-and-fast, Realms-wide rules or attitudes. As in real life, everything's complicated, and everything requires interaction (okay, roleplaying) between individuals. One female's rough enjoyable sex is another woman's rape. One person's loving and beloved by the gods multiple marriages are another person's blasphemy. And so on. I WILL say that in the Realms, most folk live far more in touch with life (birth, death, dirt, more "things" than money, more chores to stay alive with shelter and food and less "freedom to pursue careers"), and sex is less "not talked about" and hidden than it is in our modern real-world North American societies.
In your game, you should do what you feel most comfortable doing. If you want all drow to be heterosexual and utterly intolerant of anything else, make it so. If you want them all to ache for sex with anyone or anything handy thrice a day, again, make it so. Just be sure to think through the consequences of how your choices will affect society . . . because adventurers inevitably end up exploiting the details, divisions, and "gray areas" in society.
So saith Ed, who is steadily becoming an older and wiser gray area, himself.
love,
THO
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 21:05:44
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In my work, I try to treat things matching up with Ed's conception of things--a varying level of tolerance depending mostly on region and culture. Certain people have hangups that others don't, and it can be based on religion, upbringing/origin, profession, etc. This is partly because I find that more realistic than universal acceptance, and also because it makes for better stories that explore issues that are important in our world.
I've occasionally received editorial smack-down when taking the "it varies" approach, actually. Most of my fabulous editors have been of the "Realms = universal acceptance" philosophy. They were absolutely right in the cases they mentioned, but it's still a valuable thing to note that the attitude at WotC toward the issue seems to lean toward acceptance.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 21:10:06
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I'd imagine most followers of fertility gods would have at least, an opinion against it.
While I generally don't like to heap prejudices onto the already "evil" factions because "yea, we get it already, they're evil", I'd also imagine that orcs and goblinoids would probably have taboos against it because "BREED" is a major commandment pretty much all of their god's faiths. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 21:49:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
To counter what Eltheron is saying, from the answers I've gotten from Ed and I've seen from Ed, it's no so much that there is no prejudice or bais against homosexuality, just that there is generally considerably less prejudice against it than in the real world. He's made it clear that while for the most part, it isn't a major issue, some places may have a greater bais than others, some religious sects(not whole faiths, just certain sects) may be against it, so on and so forth. Again, anti-homosexual feelings don't run rampant in the realms, but it is a varied place of varied attitudes.
Would you provide references / sources to Ed's quotes on this? I've never seen Ed suggest that there is "greater bias" in certain places, nor have I seen him say that certain religious sects are anti-homosexual.
If what you're saying is true, then I need to update my information.
From last year's Ask Ed thread, 11/7/10, page 89.
quote:
Hi again, everyone. I bring Ed's response to this, from Chosen of Asmodeus: ". . . but the discussion did raise the question as to what the general attitudes towards homosexuality/bisexuality (both male and female) in drow society specifically, and the realms in general, are? Where is it considered a taboo? Where, if anywhere, is it seen as perfectly acceptable?"
Ed replies:
As in our real world, attitudes towards sex, sexual mores and expression, and sexual "orientation" (for want of a better term) vary widely from place to place and person to person. In general, tolerance of a wide variety of sexual practices (including interracial sex, which of course doesn't in the Realms mean unions or dalliances among humans of different skin hues, but literally between different species, from lizardfolk to pixies, and elves to hobgoblins (not to mention all the shapeshifters, such as dragons and doppelgangers) is greater in large "crossroads" urban centers such as Waterdeep, less in smaller ports (Waterdeep, Suzail), a little less in inland trade-moots such as Crimmor and Scornubel, a little less in market-towns, then a shade less along busy trade-routes that caravans ply, and the least in rural communities (in true wilderness, anything goes, because it's reduced to the level of individuals). Certain faiths in the pantheistic Realms (where everyone "believes" in ALL gods, and most folk actively worship more than one deity, daily) have various rules about sexual practices, and where those faiths are locally dominant, their doctrines influence local mores. However, wide-open tolerance and absolute taboos are rare, anywhere.
Among drow, specifically, the various drow cities are sharply independent of each other (except in cases where a strong city dominates nearby neighbors), and have widely different forms of government and laws (for instance, the matriarchal Lolth-worshipping rival-noble-houses society we see in Menzo is frequent and widespread, but not universal; in some drow societies, the open rivalries we see in, say, Bob's trilogy of Drizzt's youth would be seen as treason to the entire city, and would NOT be tolerated). So again, I can't give any hard-and-fast rules about sexual rules and attitudes, beyond saying that in the matriarchal drow societies, female priests can generally do as they please (have sexual relationships with each other, and all handy males) and males can't generally do as they please, sexually.
The game leaves sexual matters largely unspoken-of both to avoid offending customers (some gamers, and their parents) and to allow a DM and players to tailor "their" D&D games and "their" Realms to styles of play they most enjoy and are comfortable with. In short, if everyone around the gaming table is an adult feeling randy, the game can reflect that - - but if children or embarrassed and impressionable young adults are present, sex can be utterly absent from game play. (I'll avoid the inevitable moral debate about slaughtering monsters being okay and at the heart of the game, but sex, including tender and loving lovemaking, being omitted.)
So the short answer is: there are no hard-and-fast, Realms-wide rules or attitudes. As in real life, everything's complicated, and everything requires interaction (okay, roleplaying) between individuals. One female's rough enjoyable sex is another woman's rape. One person's loving and beloved by the gods multiple marriages are another person's blasphemy. And so on. I WILL say that in the Realms, most folk live far more in touch with life (birth, death, dirt, more "things" than money, more chores to stay alive with shelter and food and less "freedom to pursue careers"), and sex is less "not talked about" and hidden than it is in our modern real-world North American societies.
In your game, you should do what you feel most comfortable doing. If you want all drow to be heterosexual and utterly intolerant of anything else, make it so. If you want them all to ache for sex with anyone or anything handy thrice a day, again, make it so. Just be sure to think through the consequences of how your choices will affect society . . . because adventurers inevitably end up exploiting the details, divisions, and "gray areas" in society.
So saith Ed, who is steadily becoming an older and wiser gray area, himself.
love,
THO
Chosen of Asmodeus, unfortunately this is a very, very generic and wide-open quote and it doesn't really invalidate anything that I posted. So I'll stand by what I wrote earlier.
As to specific faiths that are possibly biased against or intolerant of homosexual activities, this doesn't really answer that point either, as he is speaking very generally about attitudes toward sex (the encompassing term, and not addressing specific sexual acts).
It really would've been interesting if he had given some details about which faiths / sects had rules against particular types of sex, and explained why. But his answer was really generic and was IMO a "punt" rather than a concrete answer "field goal".
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:36:54
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First of all, I never believed that there were any comming outs, etc. It seks that the people of tje Realms really don't care. And about the Elves being gay. That is awful to asme thay all gays are lke that or that they fit a stereotype. They really don't fit because they don't have feminine bodies/voices, aren't androgynous, and aren't prissy like te queenie gays are (take it from a gay guy). All of my male characters are and NONE of them are gueenie or butch.
@Eriki de Bie what books of your's and what characters were homosexual? :D
About deities and jomosexuality I know thay it is impossible for Sune to be against homosexuality and the Elven gods just don't seem like they would think of it as anything natural (they probably don't even have a word fr gay/homosexuality!!) Most of the other deities seem like they wouldn't think of it as non-natural either excet lie Lolth or te orc/goblin deities.
Is there any reference to Eladrin/Elves beig homosexual or ideas on it? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 01:36:50
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| Overdramatic "queeny" effeminates (of either gender) make superb NPCs to frustrate and discomfit my more homophobic players. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 01:52:13
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| I meant to say that the Elven gods don't think of it as anythig BUT natural. People generally think of Fae creatures as nderstanding of thay stuff, to which I am glad :) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 01:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
@Erik de Bie what books of your's and what characters were homosexual? :D
Well, I'm not going to just TELL you. Where's the fun in that? 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 02:33:38
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| Actually, I've never seen any evidence to indicate that Lolth thinks about it at all. She seems to play fast and loose with sexual mores just like she does everything else. She's a sensualist, when you get down to it. Maybe even a hedonist. What else can you say about a "lady" who has used seduction as a weapon so often, and clearly doesn't care if her priests bed anything they darn well please? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 02:44:38
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| I'm not sure if mortal sexual preferences, mores, or even biology can truly apply to celestial, fiendish, or divine beings. Lolth is a power, most often seen as a goddess though there's no reason she cannot assume a male form when she chooses. Even Gruumsh or Bahamut can assume female forms (in theory). Gods might engage in sexual activities for any reason, including pleasure, perhaps even procreation, or they might be entirely disinterested. Either way, their viewpoints wouldn't be readily comparable to those of humans. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 03:42:28
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| True, but there is a precedent in Evermeet, when she seduces Kymil to attack the island. Obviously, she enjoys a romp between the sheets as much as anyone, and has no problem with her followers doing the same, whether with their own gender or the opposite. (Triel appears to have incurred no wrath for doing so, at least.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 03:57:23
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| @Erik de Bie Awwww :,( I'll habe to buy it now. I bought Storm f the Dead today and Farthest Reach of the Last Mythal trilogy. Does anyone know SPECIFICALLY anythig to do wh th Eladrin/Elves at all? Characters, mentionng, etc. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 04:53:42
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tradwitch1313, you seem to like gay characters in high fantasy novels. You might enjoy The Last Herald-Mage Series by Mercedes Lackey. The MAIN character is gay, out, and proud! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 05:43:08
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| I've read that ... the character you're talking about somehow reminds me of the (probably not gay) character Simkin from the Weis/Hickman Darksword trilogy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:08:55
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I discovered Lackey just a bit recently. Never did she use gay characters, at least in those novels I read so far. That's why I was surprised that she actually did in that series, and not just any gay character, but THE MAIN one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 11:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I discovered Lackey just a bit recently. Never did she use gay characters, at least in those novels I read so far. That's why I was surprised that she actually did in that series, and not just any gay character, but THE MAIN one.
I discover her years ago... I can't stand her. I've told my wife that if she ever buys me a Mercedes Lackey novel, we're going to have words! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Feb 2011 12:47:58 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 12:31:24
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| There's the Steel Remains book by Richard Morgan |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
There's the Steel Remains book by Richard Morgan
I actually bought that September last year. But until now I haven't yet read even a single page.
A friend of mine [who's also gay] pointed out that the said book's lurid homosexual scenes which are a din in so many reviews are vastly exaggerated. I have yet to agree or disagree, though. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Male Homosexuality in the Realms
Topic Locked
