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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 23:40:40
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| thanks sage! |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 00:53:04
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| Lol, I kinda helped it to deviate. Well, I'm glad that tye Realms appreciate male beauty and don't think of homosexuality as anything that needs special attention or that they hate it :) Only if people in the real world tjought f it tjay way. I just wish tjat some authors in te Rems would make it just a TAD bit clearer :)a |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 06:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think you will like Storm Constantine's Wraeththu Chronicles. The Wraeththu are the new supreme race composed solely of mankind's gay males. The narrator sometimes tends to make useless philosophical ramblings that don't help the plot at all. Other than that, everything else is excellent. I'm sure you can relate to some of the characters. The new race that Constantine elegantly created is very much interesting.
This is funny. The Wraeththu series is one that people either love or hate, without much in between. Technically, they're a race of mutant hermaphrodites (but also predatory, evil, and rather "yaoi"), not gay men per se. But in some ways they do act like stereotypical gay men, so a lot of readers think of them that way.
No offense, but with the constant, constant, constant sex involved (they're either doing it, thinking about it, or emo-whining about it), and the fact that they don't really form partnerships or long-lasting relationships, it is definitely a niche interest novel series. To me it just felt like it was an overly stereotypical gay sex fantasy (let's convert all the cute men and let all the women die), and overall it had very little depth. And as a race, the Wraeththu are all too perfect, too beautiful, too magically powerful (compared to the dying human population), and too obsessed with sex IMO. And they're really rather evil and uncaring. By contrast, the normal humans are all weak and rather helpless, and have lost much of their technology; very little fighting back against the predatory Wraeththu.
Written well in some ways, definitely. And some people do love the books. But it made me giggle constantly until I had to stop. It had a lot of potential with some very interesting themes to explore, but it was all spent in really shallow ways.
The Wraeththu are supposed to be the epitome of perfection; the ultimate potential of humankind. But their debauched and uncaring disposition has proven to be their undoing. Which sums up what Constantine once said that humanity can never attain perfection---in the perfect sense of the word; it can only strive for it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 06:50:47
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| Sounds like a bit of a remake of Zardoz (a philosophically provocative, yet still utterly terrible movie starring Sean Connery). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 06:58:51
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| WotC seem to be laxing their standards in that they let Salvatore put an openly bisexual (female) character into his books. So who knows what we'll see in the coming years. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 06:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The way she did it looked a little like a publicity stunt, but the trouble is, since his sexuality did not influence the story in basically any way, this is exactly how I might have handled it had I written it. In fact, I *have* laced suggestions through novels of mine, and just haven't outright said anything. I mean, they did ask her a direct question, and she answered it. I don't feel like she was retconning anything.
Cheers
As I noted, she had been asked the same question twice---long before HP7, and a few months after its release. Why didn't she say he's gay at the first time she's asked about Dumbledore's love interest? Because [as she herself said] it's gonna spoil the rest of the books? In those flashback scenes where Grindewald and Dumbledore were supposed to have their 'gay moments,' I see nothing that clearly speaks of Dumbledore's true feelings towards Grindewald. Saying that Dumbledore is gay before HP6 and HP7 hardly makes it any spoiler. Why then did she bring up the issue of Dumbledore's sexuality only after the last book of the series? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Sounds like a bit of a remake of Zardoz (a philosophically provocative, yet still utterly terrible movie starring Sean Connery).
The Wraeththu Chronicles is so much more than that.
The author's writing elegance is also apparent in about 80% of each book. Just forget the occasional ramblings. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:08:40
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Dumbledore's sexuality not featuring in the story is as much of a spoiler as it featuring in the story in the potter fanbase; potter fans theorize about everything. Saying one way or another would shoot down numrous fan theories and possibly kill interest in the film.
Granted, I'm not unconvinced outing Dumbledore wasn't a plubicity stunt, myself. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:25:23
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As far as homosexuality in the Realms is concerned, I hope WotC would show some higher level of tolerance by allowing authors to clearly, explicitly portray gay characters when their sexual orientation bears significance in the books [say, a love story subplot]. Though I understand why they're holding back---not all readers are comfortable with the subject being blatantly presented in the novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:30:12
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I mentioned Salvatore having a bisexual character before, though (and I say this hoping not to start a debate over the book) the character's sexuality was in no way relavent to the plot, and seemed tacked on.
So hopefully they'll get better with their potrayals. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:41:14
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I suppose Ed would have freely, unabashedly portray gay characters had WotC not cast the reins. Same goes to other authors who might have once felt the inclination. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Feb 2011 07:56:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:57:07
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| You're probably right, Dennis. But again, why would it really matter at all? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You're probably right, Dennis. But again, why would it really matter at all?
It would matter if the author sees the need to exploit the sexual orientation of a character to further the plot, color it, or make a statement only he knows what. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 17:25:45
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| I think it would be quite interesting to habe a homosexual relationship in one of tye fiction books. I write a lot of FR stories thay male cjaracters are.t |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 18:15:32
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| I'll say they should include it just to include it, as well as lesbian couples that aren't done just as fanservice. But, as said, it needs to be not just something tacked onto the character, while at the same time feeling incidental. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:25:07
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| I dunno. I've used ONE character who was actually homosexual in my own tales, and it was really just there to show his infatuation with the main character, who happened to be straight. I needed some tension between some of the characters, and that one simply seemed to fit. I did, however, also have one who was bi (and also something of a pedophile, but that's another matter entirely) in the same story. I've never really considered a character's orientation to be important unless there was some aspect of the story that required it to be known. Romance or relationship tensions are really the only times this should ever come into play. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:32:37
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| Two of my favorite, recent depictions of gay characters come from fairly recent shows; the character of Barca from Spartacus: Blood and Sand, and the character of Sam Adama from Caprica. In neither case does their being gay have real effect on the story(other to demonstrate a lack of prejudice in the setting), they just feel like real people who happen to be gay. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Romance or relationship tensions are really the only times this should ever come into play.
I suggest you read more GLBT novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Two of my favorite, recent depictions of gay characters come from fairly recent shows; the character of Barca from Spartacus: Blood and Sand, and the character of Sam Adama from Caprica. In neither case does their being gay have real effect on the story(other to demonstrate a lack of prejudice in the setting), they just feel like real people who happen to be gay.
That alone is a significant enough effect/statement. Certain cultures or races would never [or find it extremely difficult] to tolerate homosexuality. Take the orcs for example---a race who value procreation as much as their deity. Unless one of them invents a spell or a means for two males to bear children, they would always find homosexuality beyond their tolerance. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Two of my favorite, recent depictions of gay characters come from fairly recent shows; the character of Barca from Spartacus: Blood and Sand, and the character of Sam Adama from Caprica. In neither case does their being gay have real effect on the story(other to demonstrate a lack of prejudice in the setting), they just feel like real people who happen to be gay.
Actually, the Barca character's homosexuality did have a big story impact, and a sad one. Well done, all around, and I felt really bad for his partner.
In Caprica, I just found the whole Sam Adama relationship to be rather... forced into the story, just to make a social statement (and it really broke the fourth wall for me). Ron Moore does that kind of stuff ALL the time, not just with homosexuality but other social issues. It didn't come across as good, IMO. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:55:55
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That he was homosexual didn't have an impact; that he was in a relationship did. It could have been played roughly the same if he were in a relationship with a woman, with only minor changes.
Granted, I haven't seen as much as Caprica as I wanted to(schedule conflicts), so what I didn't see may have felt forced. What I did see seemed natural, and, as I said, incidental. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 08:36:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Romance or relationship tensions are really the only times this should ever come into play.
I suggest you read more GLBT novels.
Thanks, but no thanks. I've seen/read plenty of hentai/yaoi manga/anime, and I'm not really into homo-erotic novels. Dark fantasy and erotica, sure, but I like 'em straight, personally. I keep the other stuff in anime, mostly because it just seems to fit better there, IMO. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 09:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Romance or relationship tensions are really the only times this should ever come into play.
I suggest you read more GLBT novels.
Thanks, but no thanks. I've seen/read plenty of hentai/yaoi manga/anime, and I'm not really into homo-erotic novels. Dark fantasy and erotica, sure, but I like 'em straight, personally. I keep the other stuff in anime, mostly because it just seems to fit better there, IMO.
Novels that are based on manga/yaoi are generally plotless, just like erotica for straight. They comprise but a tiny fragment of what GLBT as a genre really is, and therefore cannot be used to appropriately represent the said genre. In my very biased opinion [which incidentally bears some similarity to the authorities of Lambda], I believe the novels that best represent the "G" in GLBT are those penned Andre Aciman, Jamie O'Neill, Rob Byrnes, Perry Moore, David Levithan, Paul Ruditis, and Mary Renault. There's enough dose of erotica in them, sure, but they give more weight to the intricacies of gay life from the time of Alexander the Great to the present. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 12:17:20
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| Well, to tell you guys the truth, I hate yaoi a stuff because theymak the guys look like girls girls (an that's sickening), but I like a lo o ab, you guessed it, high fantasy ones. Lol Al of my characters are gjay (male ones that is) andI write my stories about them. But I hate all this "gay pride" and the festivals for it all becase they are extremely hypocritical. They are making us look like a minority, like a seperate type of people who need special attention. But anyway lol, I agree thay sexuality isn't really an issue at all with writing about, it's just how to make it fit with the story . Not like saying "Oh and he's gay." That would be really foeced and very uneeded. I like th whle romance/relationship bringing in idea. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 14:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Well, to tell you guys the truth, I hate yaoi a stuff because theymak the guys look like girls girls (an that's sickening), but I like a lo o ab, you guessed it, high fantasy ones. Lol Al of my characters are gjay (male ones that is) andI write my stories about them. But I hate all this "gay pride" and the festivals for it all becase they are extremely hypocritical. They are making us look like a minority, like a seperate type of people who need special attention. But anyway lol, I agree thay sexuality isn't really an issue at all with writing about, it's just how to make it fit with the story . Not like saying "Oh and he's gay." That would be really foeced and very uneeded. I like th whle romance/relationship bringing in idea.
i kind of agree with you there.im straight but gay mardi gras and the whatnot only go to lengths to try and highlight that gay people are in some way different.there not.afterall you dont have straight pride marches.that would be considered homophobic. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 15:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Well, to tell you guys the truth, I hate yaoi a stuff because theymak the guys look like girls girls (an that's sickening), but I like a lo o ab, you guessed it, high fantasy ones. Lol Al of my characters are gjay (male ones that is) andI write my stories about them. But I hate all this "gay pride" and the festivals for it all becase they are extremely hypocritical. They are making us look like a minority, like a seperate type of people who need special attention. But anyway lol, I agree thay sexuality isn't really an issue at all with writing about, it's just how to make it fit with the story . Not like saying "Oh and he's gay." That would be really foeced and very uneeded. I like th whle romance/relationship bringing in idea.
i kind of agree with you there.im straight but gay mardi gras and the whatnot only go to lengths to try and highlight that gay people are in some way different.there not.afterall you dont have straight pride marches.that would be considered homophobic.
Exactly. I hate it when most hlmosexual g off on that stuff. But some homos lie me s thag imxge for the disaster it s. I'm so glad the Realms doesn't have gays like that. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 15:45:47
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Okay, you've all been asked more than once to return to the topic at hand. I think it's time to temporarily seal this scroll, as the discussion apparently seems to have run it's course.
*Casts Seal Scroll* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Male Homosexuality in the Realms
Topic Locked
