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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:22:49
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| You don't. I ran into this problem in my first (and LAST) 4th ed game. I tried to convert a Paladin I'd been playing since 2nd ed, and I could NOT translate him over. It simply did not work with the new rules. 3.5 was fine- Half-Dragons still existed with little change, and the bard levels he had before becoming a paladin fit just fine in that edition. But when I tried to convert him using the dragonborn and using the mix/match of 4th, he SUCKED. He was no longer playable for me, as it was not even remotely like the character I had originally created. Needless to say, it is the biggest reason why I stayed away from 4th. I could not convert my favorite characters without loosing half of what made them so much fun to play in the first place. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You don't. I ran into this problem in my first (and LAST) 4th ed game. I tried to convert a Paladin I'd been playing since 2nd ed, and I could NOT translate him over. It simply did not work with the new rules. 3.5 was fine- Half-Dragons still existed with little change, and the bard levels he had before becoming a paladin fit just fine in that edition. But when I tried to convert him using the dragonborn and using the mix/match of 4th, he SUCKED. He was no longer playable for me, as it was not even remotely like the character I had originally created. Needless to say, it is the biggest reason why I stayed away from 4th. I could not convert my favorite characters without loosing half of what made them so much fun to play in the first place.
With regards to conversions, what rules did you have access to at the time? Meaning, did you know about Hybrids and the multitude of Multiclass options out there? What sources did you have access to? I ask because I really wanna try this conversion, if you'll let me. I'm not saying you have to use it, or even try it out, but for my own personal curosity I'd like a crack at it. If you wanna PM me the v3.5 stats, I'd give it a go.
But it's true, conversions are a tricky thing. Espically with uncommon characters such as a dual-wielding palaidn for example. The 4E rules just don't really support paladins (or sorcerers, warlocks, etc..) in using a weapon in both hands. I was lucky in that the Essentials books allowed me to convert my cleric/knight/PrC paladin of v3.5 into a very similar character using 4E (Knight/Warlord/Sword Marshal) with a heavy emphasis on Religion. It worked out pretty well.
Anyways, think it over Alystra and let me know  . |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 19:26:46
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MY theory is that divine power actually stems FROM WITHIN. All you need is faith.
I believe one of the designers called it 'the Potted plant' feat, wherein you could worship a potted plant if that made you happy (and still get divine spells!) It was supposed to take the place of no less then three feats that amounted to much the same thing (gotta love 3e for its uber-redundancy).
Please don't ask me for sources - search for it on the WotC site. So much good material was deleted from there with their THREE forum overhauls that I can no longer be bothered with that headache.
But it WAS there....
Anyhow, this idea isn't really new - back in 1e (and maybe 2e) you could worship concepts, but it was FR that actually changed all that. Strictly speaking, even in 'The Realms' (Realmspace) you could break the setting rules. According to SJ (IIRC), you could receive spells of up to 3rd level WITHOUT being in contact with your deity (I believe Ravenloft had a similar mechanic, but its been so long I could be off on both counts).
Thus proving the fallacy that you NEED a deity to receive spells. Gods LIE all the time - you think they want mortals to know about this loophole? The way I see all of that working (in 3e), WITHOUT the feat you can go up to 3rd level - humans possess enough 'inner strength' to accomplish this with their Faith. Once you get past level 3, however, you need a little something extra - the 'Potted-Plant Feat'. Mechanically it makes sense, and you can chalk the feat up to 'a breakthrough in Enlightenment' (or some bad chocolate... take your pick, doesn't matter). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2011 19:28:42 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 19:51:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Tell you what- I'll let you "win" this arguement, since it seems to mean that much to you. You can be "right" this time, and save the rest of us the burden/troulbe of it. I guess those who disagree with you will just have to settle for being "wrong" this time. Happy?
Good grief. There's seriously no need for this level of snarky and overly dramatic incivility. But if you need to paint me as a big mean meanie, just because I counter your suppositions with references to the lore, whatever.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 19:54:02
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No, Therise, frankly I'm just tired of getting everything I say that you disagree with shot down summarily without even a hint of a "yes, okay, that is possible" consideration. So, I'm sorry if you disagree so completely, but that is NO reason to simply say "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong" at every point I try to make. And I'd really just rather not try to beat my head against a brick wall on it anymore. So I'm conceding the field to you out of sheer annoyance and frustration. Because I can't stand it when people won't even LOOK at another point of view. Even when it's perfectle reasonable and does not even entirely ocntradict their own! Thank you for an interesting debate, but it's run its course, and clearly, you can't accept anything I try to say, so I'm dropping it before it gets out of hand. THAT'S why I posted that above. My apologies for the "snark" effect, but I was getting seriously annoyed.
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Diffan, at the time, 4th had just recently come out, so I don't believe any of that had been published yet. It was a Half-gold gragon/(gray) elf bard 2/pali 8, no dual wielding or such, but using the old 2nd ed rules for half dragons, which converted fairly well into 3rd. I no longer have his exact stats, becuase the 3.5 character sheet goterased by a player of mine who was looking for a sheet to use. Yes, I'm still cursing that one.... He uses a long sword and shield, had a 24 str and 20 dex, IIRC, 16 wis, and 18 char. those are the only ones I remember. He had the breath weapon, claws, and darkvision traits, also. He did have a few levels in a HB PrC for the deity I used for him (he's non-FR, based in a Hb world i created, with its own set of gods) It was sort of a cross between zeus and Helm/Torm, heavy on the justice and weather elements. Hope that hleps if you want to try to build something similar for 4th ed, but I've looked at enough of the 4th ed books to know that i will not be playing it again. Did not like the mechanics at all.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 17 Feb 2011 20:08:02 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 20:43:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, Therise, frankly I'm just tired of getting everything I say that you disagree with shot down summarily without even a hint of a "yes, okay, that is possible" consideration. So, I'm sorry if you disagree so completely, but that is NO reason to simply say "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong" at every point I try to make. And I'd really just rather not try to beat my head against a brick wall on it anymore. So I'm conceding the field to you out of sheer annoyance and frustration. Because I can't stand it when people won't even LOOK at another point of view. Even when it's perfectle reasonable and does not even entirely ocntradict their own! Thank you for an interesting debate, but it's run its course, and clearly, you can't accept anything I try to say, so I'm dropping it before it gets out of hand. THAT'S why I posted that above. My apologies for the "snark" effect, but I was getting seriously annoyed.
Well, let me apologize as well (at least for the frustration) and perhaps explain a bit about my intentions. Even if it might seem so, in no way do I really want to frustrate people. The last thing I want to do, honestly, is generate any negative feelings. If I've done that, I'm sorry and it was never my intent. Either in this thread or any other one.
However, I am a feisty girl who loves debate and I love finding facts and using subtle points of logic in any debate. It's how I'm trained in my work, actually. There's a bit of fun involved when you can nail down an argument in such a way. But I don't see debates as personal investments, and win or lose it's just a debate and nothing more. Sometimes, I've even taken up a side that I don't agree with and still work to win the debate. That's just part of being a classic debater, and it's never meant personally.
Most of the time, the canon Realms has really clear rules, and a lot of them really suck hard when it comes to implementing them in game. If I drag out some obscure fact about the ToT and use it in my debate, it doesn't mean that this I view it as the only right way to play the game. In fact, my own Realms is pretty much classic 1E with a few tidbits imported from 2E and 3E... because I really can't stand a lot of the crazy rules (or the logical conclusions that follow those rules) which have found their way into canon Realms.
An example of this is that I never had a ToT in my Realms, so much of the subsequent history has been different. Another one is that I don't have a Wall that PCs can see, nor can players who visit any godly domain ever actually see dead petitioners after they cross "beyond the veil" of death. You can go to Myrkul's Realm in my game, but you'd never meet Myrkul (or any other god face-to-face) while still alive. And you'd only see petitioner-spirits up to the point where they transition from the fugue plane into the unknown beyond. The afterlife really is an unknown in my game. If raised from the dead, a PC will remember almost nothing of their experience.
But I don't use any of that when I debate canon stuff. Anyway, no hard feelings, eh? I never meant to generate any, with anyone.
Except Wooly. Because it's fun to squeeze hamsters until they squeek.
KIDDING, I kid! I'm not advocating animal abuse. Or moderator abuse.
But I still do hate Misc. UNTIL THE END OF TIME. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 20:59:32
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Great posts, Therise! You really hit ever mark spot-on, and back up every point with canon support!
These are the types of posts I love to see on Candlekeep; well thought out, with a references and citation. It is so nice to see someone diverge from pointless speculation and dig into the real 'meat and potatoes' of the setting!
Again, fantastic. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:03:42
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Ah, MT, bless you! I remember that bit now, and now that I think about it, that brings up the question of what to do with transplanted PC's from otehr worlds whose deities have no influence in the Realms. Do THEY get spells? Why or why not? What happens when they die? I know that was touched on earlier, but not really to anyone's satisfaction. As I see it, ANYONE can gain spells from worshiping SOMETHING. Doesn't have to be a known god, but some Power somewhere would grant them divine power. Otherwise, there would not be so many druids and rangers who worship the forces of nature, but have no specific deity- which is one of the points where I think the notion of "no god = no spells and no afterlife" falls apart. For those who worship/follow an IDEAL, this would seem to be a first-class ticket to the Wall. I don't believe that for an instant. For one thing, it utterly contradicts all other aspects of the game. Back in 2nd ed, one didn't even NEED a deity to cast divine spells. It wasn't until 3rd that that became such a big requirement. I have to wonder why the sudden (and HUGE) change? so you want to give reverence to a potted plant? Fine, but don't expect to win many converts. but at least you can still cure the party's wounds!
As a side-note, I've got a pali I Rp that is in just that very situation. He is from another world (mine0 transplanted to Faerun, and worships a god who has NO FR analog. What to do? He's cut off from his deity COMPLETELY, and is too faithful to even consider switching to another. (He IS a paladin, after all!) Does he start up a church to his god? Ask for spells and hope he hears? How would a character in the Realms deal with this? It's basically the same situation as someone who follows a dead god- they have no "contact" to draw from, according to "that rule". Any thoughts? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:06:24
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The divine powers of Faerun allow the follows of deities of other planes to grant their worshipers spells. This is mentioned in numerous sources, though I'm not at my desk, atm...
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah, MT, bless you! I remember that bit now, and now that I think about it, that brings up the question of what to do with transplanted PC's from otehr worlds whose deities have no influence in the Realms. Do THEY get spells? Why or why not? What happens when they die? I know that was touched on earlier, but not really to anyone's satisfaction. As I see it, ANYONE can gain spells from worshiping SOMETHING. Doesn't have to be a known god, but some Power somewhere would grant them divine power. Otherwise, there would not be so many druids and rangers who worship the forces of nature, but have no specific deity- which is one of the points where I think the notion of "no god = no spells and no afterlife" falls apart. For those who worship/follow an IDEAL, this would seem to be a first-class ticket to the Wall. I don't believe that for an instant. For one thing, it utterly contradicts all other aspects of the game. Back in 2nd ed, one didn't even NEED a deity to cast divine spells. It wasn't until 3rd that that became such a big requirement. I have to wonder why the sudden (and HUGE) change? so you want to give reverence to a potted plant? Fine, but don't expect to win many converts. but at least you can still cure the party's wounds!
As a side-note, I've got a pali I Rp that is in just that very situation. He is from another world (mine0 transplanted to Faerun, and worships a god who has NO FR analog. What to do? He's cut off from his deity COMPLETELY, and is too faithful to even consider switching to another. (He IS a paladin, after all!) Does he start up a church to his god? Ask for spells and hope he hears? How would a character in the Realms deal with this? It's basically the same situation as someone who follows a dead god- they have no "contact" to draw from, according to "that rule". Any thoughts?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:13:56
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In Spelljammer canon, priests could regain 1st and 2nd level spells in any sphere, even if their deity wasn't worshipped there. And contact home power (I think that was the name) was either a 1st or 2nd level spell that allowed the priest to "call home" and get his/her full allotment of spells.
Also, some deities had agreements with their counterparts from other spheres, and would grant spells to each other's followers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, some deities had agreements with their counterparts from other spheres, and would grant spells to each other's followers.
Of course, it should be noted that only those deities who were willing to work with their counterparts, agree to this type of policy. I'd imagine there would be more than a few gods unwilling to share power or followers regardless of the circumstances, and would view worshippers on other worlds looking to worship a counterpart, as a betrayal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 01:49:52
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This intercosmic agreement was a central explanation for priests from Toril or Oerth being able to cast spells when visiting Krynn. Even so, the gods of Krynn are somewhat parochial and have limited tolerance for interlopers; foreign clergy wishing to become permanent residents would ultimately be forced to abandon their faith and accept a local power. Actively proselytizing an alien religion is an offense which meets responses ranging from suspicion and mockery (from the inhabitants) to divinely manifest censure and reprimand (from the jealously territorial gods).
It was argued that "minor" divine magics (ie, 1st and 2nd level priest spells) were technically fueled by the priest's unwavering inner faith, not provided by a higher power. This argument is fair enough but does have some flaws, such as why the priest necessarily needs to pray in the usual manner to gain "approval" for such magics. This is actually one wrinkle which 4E irons out quite well. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:10:05
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| That's all great, but it still doesn't answer the question of characters whose patron DON'T have a counterpart in the Realms. Specifically, a deity who is like a cross between Zeus and Helm. The closest are Bahamut and Talos/Helm (a mix), but The pali in question dislikes Bahamut, and can't worship both Talos and Helm,due to the conflicting alignments and focus. So what does a character like that do? Especially if they don't have the Contact Home Power spell? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:16:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It was argued that "minor" divine magics (ie, 1st and 2nd level priest spells) were technically fueled by the priest's unwavering inner faith, not provided by a higher power. This argument is fair enough but does have some flaws, such as why the priest necessarily needs to pray in the usual manner to gain "approval" for such magics. This is actually one wrinkle which 4E irons out quite well.
My way of looking at it was that 1st and 2nd level spells could be doled out without conscious effort by a deity. The cleric still has to ask for them, but the deity didn't have to think about delivering them. For spells of 3rd level and above, the deity actually had to pay attention.
It was actually the greater doppleganger that got me thinking of this. A mirrorkin that replaces a divine caster can still get 1st and 2nd level spells, but nothing higher. This is why I think that those spells are granted without thinking about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:57:36
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I think there used to be Gygax rules about characters moving around between worlds. Specifically, a character originally from Oerth who was on Toril was not "native"; thus subject to special rules about banishment, abjure, dismissal, and such stuff. I think that one could only be "native" of a single world, only by being born there or by living there for 50 years (every world-traveller was at least native of the last place they spent 50 years). Not that this rule ever came into play much, but when it did it was usually handwaved off since having some of your PCs/NPCs banished to another world by, say, a random low-level cleric performing a turning attempt would really make for sucky gameplay; this could take on ridiculous proportions when Spelljamming moved players around between worlds. I can't even recall which 1E/2E core sourcebook printed it, maybe it was even somewhere in the Spelljammer rules. In any event, it was an insignificant footnote and seemed to have been entirely forgotten/retconned by subsequent 2E Planescape definitions of primes and planars.)
Given this (or any similar) arbitrary sort of rule, the distinction might be made that a "native" of another world who dies in the Realms wouldn't be processed through the normal Fugue, but instead travel (or be taken) to whatever place would be normal for his "native" mythology. An immigrated "native" of the Realms (lived there at least 50 years before dying) who stubbornly refused to accept the Faerūnian pantheon would, I think, rightfully be termed Faithless.
Uh, you're thinking about doppelgangers, Alystra? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Feb 2011 04:04:50 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:39:01
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I think you're thinking of tween from 1E FF.
Planescape also had a few sorts of similarly quasi-symbiotic creatures (some of them beneficial, most not). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 04:47:50
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| Ah-HA!! Yep, that sounds right. I knew it sounded like twin or something. And Yeah, I knew there were some critters in Planescape too, but I remembered it being in that book because of the art for it. Was a simple B&W drawing , like all of the art in that book. My copy is in storage somewhere, I think, or I'd have looked it up. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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My Questions and Opinions Regarding 4e
