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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 20:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Yes, an actual deity ... with no servants to deploy onto the Fugue, with no eternal home to take their faithful. So ... an eternal afterlife on the Fugue Plane, fending off baatezu predations and waiting to be collected?
(I'm assuming that if the servants/domain were still functioning they'd be subsumed by another deity, typically the current owner of the old deity's portfolio.)
Good point; I had neglected to think about that. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 20:56:04
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| You're probably right, Alystra. Though "no problem" seems a bit euphemistic, lol. Imagine devoted followers of Jergal, Myrkul, Bhaal, Bane, Xvim, Cyric, and Kelemvor all eternally afterliving together. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 23:26:06
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| I would think a similarly aligned deity would step in before you went through anything crazy. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So, worshipping a deity to be able to cast spells contradicts having to worship a deity to cast spells? I'm afraid I don't see that logic...
No, worshipping a dead deity contradicts the fact that Realms divine classes receive their powers from livine Gods. If a deity is dead, then how can it have power to lend?
I'm not saying it's wrong or silly, just a little strange that one little feat allows you to worship dead Gods but characters with fervor and zeal who believe with their whole being in a "beleif system" of say....luck and death (pulled them off the top of my head) can't gain powers as well.
Pretty sure it's not stated anywhere that you have to worship a living god... And death for deities is not the same as death for mortal races: even a dead god is not all the way dead for millenia, and can be brought back to life.
So I don't see any issue at all with worshipping a fallen deity -- they are still around, and still have power, they're just doing an impression of a Norwegian blue parrot ("Lovely plumage!" ).
One issue re: worshipping a dead deity might be that upon death they'd be classified as "faithless" since they're a petitioner for a deity that's dead. So they'd go into the Wall.
I don't see why -- they're worshipping an actual deity.
Indeed. And as Ed has said in the past, no deity ever actually truly dies. So I'd imagine any lingering thread of faith the dead individual had for a dead deity, is enough to guarantee a path into the afterlife beyond being "faithless." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
One issue re: worshipping a dead deity might be that upon death they'd be classified as "faithless" since they're a petitioner for a deity that's dead. So they'd go into the Wall.
quote:
I don't see why -- they're worshipping an actual deity.
quote:
Indeed. And as Ed has said in the past, no deity ever actually truly dies. So I'd imagine any lingering thread of faith the dead individual had for a dead deity, is enough to guarantee a path into the afterlife beyond being "faithless."
Wrongamundo, you're all wrong. The "Servant of the Fallen" feat has very clear rules on characters worshipping dead deities, and what happens to those poor souls when they themselves die:
quote:
Dead or fallen deities cannot grant cleric spells, so clerics who choose such patrons do not normally receive spells. Characters who do not worship active gods in Faerun suffer the fate of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane after death.
- source: Lost Empires of Faerun (p. 9)
It doesn't even matter if they take the feat or not, as it's a statement about worship.
Those poor deluded souls, even if they're honorably worshipping a nice, kind and loving deity... if it is a dead power... those worshippers go into the Wall as Faithless. And they'll receive the punishment (and it is stated to be a punishment) of slow and painful disintegration with eventual dissolution of their soul.
Makes me wonder, what happened to all those faithful of Mystra after Cyric brained her and she officially became a dead power. Why, even Alustriel, she's probably in the Wall, yay!
Yeah, that Wall... still think it's nice and "fair"?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 17 Feb 2011 00:40:50 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:49:10
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| What happens to the souls that were already in teain that the deity ruled over, say, Kiaransalee and Eillistraee? I'm trying to think of a way to brig back Kiaransalee since her name was wiped from EVERYONE'S memory...... And I believe the souls would either go to tha deitie's realm or to one f their ally's realm. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
What happens to the souls that were already in teain that the deity ruled over, say, Kiaransalee and Eillistraee? I'm trying to think of a way to brig back Kiaransalee since her name was wiped from EVERYONE'S memory...... And I believe the souls would either go to tha deitie's realm or to one f their ally's realm.
That's an interesting question. We don't really know in the case of Kiaransalee what happened to the dead souls in her domain. But since she didn't technically "die" and no one really inherited her portfolio, I'd suspect they're still with her.
Eilistraee is an easier answer. Her domain didn't dissolve when she "disappeared" (and she might still be alive, in non-deity form). But governance of her realm and her effective portfolio was subsumed by Corellon Larethian. So they're with him, all those dead souls.
Bringing Kiaransalee back is something you could do in your home game, but I doubt they'll ever bring her back for the canon Realms. Very easily, you could have her take another name and do something nasty to Lolth to gain vengeance at the same time. The drow high magic could also have taken a hit when the spellplague hit the Realms, also, and maybe people just start to remember her. Many ways you could do this for your home game.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 02:03:48
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| Storm of the Dead describes how Kiaransalee died, but yet Ed himself said that deities didn't really die. But I'll brig her ack regardles ad Eillistraee to :D |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 02:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Storm of the Dead describes how Kiaransalee died, but yet Ed himself said that deities didn't really die. But I'll brig her ack regardles ad Eillistraee to :D
I think you're misunderstanding what I meant, so let me clarify. Kiaransalee was wiped from collective memory, but she did not die: she was not killed in the classic sense of one deity literally killing another. Through the use of drow high magic (cast by Q'arlynd and his group), her name was erased from the Realms. Technically, that's not "death" in the standard sense, and so that's probably why no one took her portfolio. She's a forgotten deity.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 02:32:03
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| Ahhh, that makes a lot more sense now. I pretty much got that from before but the book kinda screwed up my logic for a bit. What. I thin I'm gonna do is get a Crone that was lnce ln her way to becommig a high priestess of maube THE high priestess start remembering her after the spell plagu occured. Then she's gonna start recruitig bacsome old and mew members as well as havig a seething want for revenge. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 03:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
One issue re: worshipping a dead deity might be that upon death they'd be classified as "faithless" since they're a petitioner for a deity that's dead. So they'd go into the Wall.
quote:
I don't see why -- they're worshipping an actual deity.
quote:
Indeed. And as Ed has said in the past, no deity ever actually truly dies. So I'd imagine any lingering thread of faith the dead individual had for a dead deity, is enough to guarantee a path into the afterlife beyond being "faithless."
Wrongamundo, you're all wrong. The "Servant of the Fallen" feat has very clear rules on characters worshipping dead deities, and what happens to those poor souls when they themselves die:
quote:
Dead or fallen deities cannot grant cleric spells, so clerics who choose such patrons do not normally receive spells. Characters who do not worship active gods in Faerun suffer the fate of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane after death.
- source: Lost Empires of Faerun (p. 9)
It doesn't even matter if they take the feat or not, as it's a statement about worship.
Those poor deluded souls, even if they're honorably worshipping a nice, kind and loving deity... if it is a dead power... those worshippers go into the Wall as Faithless. And they'll receive the punishment (and it is stated to be a punishment) of slow and painful disintegration with eventual dissolution of their soul.
Makes me wonder, what happened to all those faithful of Mystra after Cyric brained her and she officially became a dead power. Why, even Alustriel, she's probably in the Wall, yay!
Yeah, that Wall... still think it's nice and "fair"?
I would dispute the absolute nature of the disposition of those souls: I would say that they default to being treated as Faithless, but I don't think it's the reality for all of them. It seems to me that 1) Kelemvor is the Judge of the dead, which means that he has some latitude in deciding the fates of his charges and 2) various Powers would want to rescue/enslave souls that would otherwise be bound into the Wall. These two items come together to suggest that Kel likely could give the soul the option of going with the servitors of the active Power who corresponds to the dead one; i.e., Aumanitorites might be allowed to serve Lathander (or in 4E, vice versa).
Also, there are those that *knowingly* worship dead Powers, with the hope of resurrecting them and being the Grand High Poobah of the Resurgent Church of ***** the Undying! They *wager* their afterlives against that possibility.
And Therise, while I understand your stand on the Wall being eebil because it 'forces' worship on Faerunians (how could I not when you've repeated it about 30 times?  ), I just happen to think you're completely wrong. Let me make an analogy; Eating healthy food, most people know, will make you live a longer and healthier life. This(according to your logic) makes healthy food evil, since it's FORCING you to eat it if you don't want to die 10 years earlier! How DARE that healthy food prey on our frail mortal need for healthy food! It's COERCING us, is what it's doing! Or...wait... could it just be a *FACT OF LIFE* that everyone accepts; if you want to eat junk food, you are FREE to do so, but you'll feel like crap, get fat, and die young. OR, you can give up the pleasure that is unhealthy food in exchange for living a longer, better life. I see the Wall as the same thing; a Faerunian is free to choose to worship a dead power, or no power at all- but there's a price to pay for that. OTOH, they can give up a bit of freedom in order to have a more pleasant afterlife.
Oh, and BTW, the Wall *is* fair; it affects everyone equally. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 04:21:05
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| Agreed. Also, I would like to point out that the quoted text mentioned says that "clerics of dead powers do not NORMALLY receive spells". This means that under some circumstances, they CAN. And the novels and sourcebooks have shown several examples of dead or forgotten powers who STILL answered the prayers of and granted spells to their clergy. Therise, I'm wondering why you insist that all those who worship fallen deities end up in the Wall, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. Even your own citation seems to contradict that premise. I'm sensing some issues with clerical authority, to be honest. Which is fine, but should not be projected into a game-setting. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Agreed. Also, I would like to point out that the quoted text mentioned says that "clerics of dead powers do not NORMALLY receive spells". This means that under some circumstances, they CAN. And the novels and sourcebooks have shown several examples of dead or forgotten powers who STILL answered the prayers of and granted spells to their clergy. Therise, I'm wondering why you insist that all those who worship fallen deities end up in the Wall, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. Even your own citation seems to contradict that premise. I'm sensing some issues with clerical authority, to be honest. Which is fine, but should not be projected into a game-setting.
Wow, I can show you all -very- clear rules in a FR rulebook, and you not only deny it but suggest that I have personal issues with clerical authority?
Amazing.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:44:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I would dispute the absolute nature of the disposition of those souls: I would say that they default to being treated as Faithless, but I don't think it's the reality for all of them. It seems to me that 1) Kelemvor is the Judge of the dead, which means that he has some latitude in deciding the fates of his charges and
Why exactly would Kelemvor care? He's neutral, and he's enforcing a rule (even if it's his own rule).
The rule doesn't say "most" or "generally", after all.
quote:
2) various Powers would want to rescue/enslave souls that would otherwise be bound into the Wall. These two items come together to suggest that Kel likely could give the soul the option of going with the servitors of the active Power who corresponds to the dead one; i.e., Aumanitorites might be allowed to serve Lathander (or in 4E, vice versa).
Show me one reference where a god, not a devil or demon, has tried to rescue someone from the Wall.
I'll grant the possibility about Lathander-Amaunator, since they were ultimately shown to be the same deity.
quote:
Also, there are those that *knowingly* worship dead Powers, with the hope of resurrecting them and being the Grand High Poobah of the Resurgent Church of ***** the Undying! They *wager* their afterlives against that possibility.
Yes, according to the rule, they definitely do.
quote:
And Therise, while I understand your stand on the Wall being eebil because it 'forces' worship on Faerunians (how could I not when you've repeated it about 30 times? ), I just happen to think you're completely wrong.
Let's be realistic and not snarky just for the sake of being snarky. I've only repeated that point perhaps twice. You have also repeated and endorsed the contrary position just as much: the opinion that it's "just a fact of life." But the bottom line is that the whole "fact of life" idea is merely a supposition based upon personal belief. So let's not call me out for being a black teapot when you're one of the black kettles, ok?
quote:
Let me make an analogy; Eating healthy food, most people know, will make you live a longer and healthier life. This(according to your logic) makes healthy food evil, since it's FORCING you to eat it if you don't want to die 10 years earlier! How DARE that healthy food prey on our frail mortal need for healthy food!...
Attitude aside, this analogy just doesn't work. Food is not an "agent" that has a choice in what it offers each person, as it cannot act, nor can it "contract" with you. It can't offer you terms that favor itself and punish only your side if the contract is broken, and ultimately you're not providing it with any service in return. This breaks down on several levels.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 17 Feb 2011 06:46:47 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:45:23
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Indeed, Sage, I didn't intend for it to skew that way- was just making an observation of possible reasons for that view. Personally, I have nothing against it- to each their own, after all, but I was sort of wondering if such a judgment might be coloring perspective. However, this is a fictional pantheon, so I'm thinking that RW religious ideas don't necessarily apply.
That said, no, I am not denying anything, I am pointing out that there is a BIG qualifier to that statement quoted above. In fact, I even used the same quote to make my point. "NORMALLY" being the operative word in that sentence, meaning that under some conditions, a cleric CAN still receive spells. Otherwise, why even HAVE that feat? The text says it right out. You're basically saying the feat itself is pointless because you couldn't use it. If that was true, then there would be no reason for the feat to be there in the first place. The designers put it there so that clerics of dead gods COULD still get their spells, etc! One can argue against it if they like, but that is the plain and simple truth. I DO have a passing familiarity with the nuances of the English language, and the insertion of that word "NORMALLY" is a qualifier that allows for a refutation of the rest of the sentence if proper requirements are met- ie, taking the feat. So, yes, a cleric CAN worship a fallen god and still gain spells. How else do all those clerics of Moander, Jergal, Myrkul, et al still manage to have divine power? (They are small cults, to be sure, but they DO still get spells!) There have been "dead" gods many times before- heck, Mystra herself has died three different times, and yet her clerics still received spells for most of that time- and clerics have continued to gain spells from them, and have even brought them back on occasion with enough reverence. How is that denying a statement which is already conditional to begin with? Come to think of it, if enough people got together with the same beliefs and started praying to a "imaginary" god, they could conceivably give that deity reality, and then start gaining divine power from it. Not saying it would ever happen, but it's POSSIBLE. We are dealing with a world of magic, after all, and "normal" rules of logic and physics don't apply.
Also, Although the analogy has its faults, I can certainly see the point of it. Perhaps a better one would be having a job. Yes, you can either work for a living and enjoy the benefits of having money, a home, and other necessities and luxuries of life, or you can not have a job and have a very crummy life indeed. No one FORCES you to get one, but hey, if you choose NOT to, then who do you blame for it? Not the boss you chose NOT to work for. He's got bigger things to worry about. It isn't his fault if you're starving in the street because you refuse to work. but if you have a job, work hard, and are loyal to the company, you'll eventually get that nice retirement package! (Wow, I just summed up the entire god/mortal dynamic perfectly. Imagine that.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 17 Feb 2011 06:58:10 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 07:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Indeed, Sage, I didn't intend for it to skew that way- was just making an observation of possible reasons for that view. Personally, I have nothing against it- to each their own, after all, but I was sort of wondering if such a judgment might be coloring perspective. However, this is a fictional pantheon, so I'm thinking that RW religious ideas don't necessarily apply.
That said, no, I am not denying anything, I am pointing out that there is a BIG qualifier to that statement quoted above. In fact, I even used the same quote to make my point. "NORMALLY" being the operative word in that sentence, meaning that under some conditions, a cleric CAN still receive spells. Otherwise, why even HAVE that feat? The text says it right out. You're basically saying the feat itself is pointless because you couldn't use it. If that was true, then there would be no reason for the feat to be there in the first place. The designers put it there so that clerics of dead gods COULD still get their spells, etc! One can argue against it if they like, but that is the plain and simple truth.
Alystra, dead gods do not grant spells. Clerics who worship a dead deity can get spells from demons (or sometimes other gods) that pretend to be the dead deity.
That's all the qualifier means.
quote:
I DO have a passing familiarity with the nuances of the English language, and the insertion of that word "NORMALLY" is a qualifier that allows for a refutation of the rest of the sentence if proper requirements are met- ie, taking the feat. So, yes, a cleric CAN worship a fallen god and still gain spells. How else do all those clerics of Moander, Jergal, Myrkul, et al still manage to have divine power? (They are small cults, to be sure, but they DO still get spells!)
Moander's clerics were given spells by Lolth for a time, and they didn't know. That's lore.
Jergal is not a dead deity, he is an active lesser god and can still grant spells.
For Myrkul, Cyric granted clerics of Myrkul their spells for a time (in order to get them to switch over). But in the lore, I don't know of any NPC that still worships Myrkul and obtains spells.
quote:
There have been "dead" gods many times before- heck, Mystra herself has died three different times, and yet her clerics still received spells for most of that time- and clerics have continued to gain spells from them, and have even brought them back on occasion with enough reverence.
When Mystryl died, magic stopped for a short time - until she (almost immediately) became Mystra. When Mystra was killed the second time, by Helm, she was technically a mortal avatar and magic was acting wonky during the ToT anyway. Midnight became Mystra #2, and granted worshippers their spells just as Mystra #1 did. None of the cases with Mystra really argue against the rule on dead deities no longer granting spells. When Cyric brained Mystra and really did kill her (at least making her a dead power), Mystran priests stopped getting spells.
Dead deities don't come back because they regain some critical minimum of worshippers, they come back for other reasons. But those deities, while they were dead powers, did not grant spells. Other deities, or demons, granted spells in their place.
quote:
How is that denying a statement which is already conditional to begin with? Come to think of it, if enough people got together with the same beliefs and started praying to a "imaginary" god, they could conceivably give that deity reality, and then start gaining divine power from it. Not saying it would ever happen, but it's POSSIBLE. We are dealing with a world of magic, after all, and "normal" rules of logic and physics don't apply.
What deity can you point to in the Realms where this is the case?
quote:
Also, Although the analogy has its faults, I can certainly see the point of it. Perhaps a better one would be having a job. Yes, you can either work for a living and enjoy the benefits of having money, a home, and other necessities and luxuries of life, or you can not have a job and have a very crummy life indeed. No one FORCES you to get one, but hey, if you choose NOT to, then who do you blame for it? Not the boss you chose NOT to work for. He's got bigger things to worry about. It isn't his fault if you're starving in the street because you refuse to work. but if you have a job, work hard, and are loyal to the company, you'll eventually get that nice retirement package! (Wow, I just summed up the entire god/mortal dynamic perfectly. Imagine that.)
Well, this would be a good analogy if there was only one company that you could work for in the world, they offered you one type of job, and then they set all the rules and determined salaries and benefits (again, entirely on their terms without your input). Then, if you "chose" to not accept their job offer (the only one ever available to you), they put you in prison until you died after slowly starving to death... that would be a better analogy. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 17 Feb 2011 07:20:03 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 07:32:24
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| Sure, if YOU say so. I guess there's no room for others' perspectives to be right? So basically, you're saying that feat is USELESS. Then why is it there? Unless you can DEFINITIVELY prove that NO fallen god has ever NOT granted spells to followers, then the statement is still valid. How about we use Amaunator as an example. He was "dead", after all, and "came back" (ignoring the utterly confusing 4th ed godly mash-ups for the moment). And clerics of his faith still received spells right alongside those of Lathander as a separate faith for years. (Can't remember where I saw this, plus, it's late, and I'm getting really tired of going round about this.) But, hey, I'll even give you the other two, just for fun. Even though Jergal is not actually the god of death anymore, nor is he even "active" currently except as Kelemvore's "senechal" (which is just another name for a butler, LOL!!!), AFAIK, but yet he's still handing out spells. By your own statement, he should not be able to. But he is. As for the Lolth/Moander thing, sure, but IIRC, that was also supposed to be only speculation at one point. It wasn't made "truth" until later (in one of the later 3.5 books, I believe). A "whispers say" bit of lore. and never mind that Myrkul is stuck in the Crown of Thorns and shouldn't be able to hand out spells, but still seems to exert considerable power even outside of the wearer. And then there is the domain of Eilistraee. It still exists separately from Corellon's. Wanna lay odds on whether her clerics still get spells? I'd bet they do. (Then again, I'm not entirely convinced she's "dead", either.) Or lest we forget Mask. He was stuck in a sword, but was still granting spells to his clerics, even though he was not technically "active" either. And what about Bane? He was dead for quite some time, but his clerics still got their daily ration of divine power, until he was reborn as what's-his-name-funky-spelled-X-guy Baneson. Gee, with all the "dead" gods floating around, how are ANY priests getting spells? Keep in mind that death is different for gods than it is for mortals. They still have power after they die, and can still influence things- mortals just go on to enjoy their happy reward (or nasty punishment, depending). |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 08:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Sure, if YOU say so. I guess there's no room for others' perspectives to be right? So basically, you're saying that feat is USELESS. Then why is it there?
It's not just me saying so, it's a rule.
And no, the feat isn't useless. It's a method by which a PC can gain spells while worshipping a dead deity, and not get those spells from a demon or another god. The feat states clearly that the priest is aware their deity died, and through an act of intense faith they are somehow still able to connect to the remnants of that deity's power (at least for spells, if nothing else). Intense faith is apparently enough to connect one to a god-corpse, but it's not enough to gain them an afterlife. Presumably because there are no divine servitors to come collect a dead petitioner, and the dead deity doesn't have a realm anyway.
quote:
Unless you can DEFINITIVELY prove that NO fallen god has ever NOT granted spells to followers, then the statement is still valid.
When there's a clear rule, like I've shown, that's enough. You actually have the burden of proof to show that the rule is wrong, since you're arguing against it.
quote:
How about we use Amaunator as an example. He was "dead", after all, and "came back" (ignoring the utterly confusing 4th ed godly mash-ups for the moment). And clerics of his faith still received spells right alongside those of Lathander as a separate faith for years. (Can't remember where I saw this, plus, it's late, and I'm getting really tired of going round about this.)
When Amaunator was a dead power, he didn't grant anyone spells.
quote:
But, hey, I'll even give you the other two, just for fun. Even though Jergal is not actually the god of death anymore, nor is he even "active" currently except as Kelemvore's "senechal" (which is just another name for a butler, LOL!!!), AFAIK, but yet he's still handing out spells. By your own statement, he should not be able to. But he is.
Er... you aren't actually "giving" me anything, the lore supports me in this. Jergal gave up part of his power, not all of it. He did not become mortal when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul came into power, and he didn't give up all of his portfolios. He definitely is and has been a living power and at no point was he a dead or forgotten power. He's a lesser god / demipower. There's no issue whatsoever with Jergal handing out spells to worshippers.
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As for the Lolth/Moander thing, sure, but IIRC, that was also supposed to be only speculation at one point. It wasn't made "truth" until later (in one of the later 3.5 books, I believe). A "whispers say" bit of lore.
Many things in the Realms start out as whispers or beliefs, then we get a reveal in a later book. This doesn't invalidate any part of what I'm saying.
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...and never mind that Myrkul is stuck in the Crown of Thorns and shouldn't be able to hand out spells, but still seems to exert considerable power even outside of the wearer.
Myrkul doesn't grant spells any longer.
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And then there is the domain of Eilistraee. It still exists separately from Corellon's. Wanna lay odds on whether her clerics still get spells? I'd bet they do. (Then again, I'm not entirely convinced she's "dead", either.)
Where does it say that Eilistraee's domain was separate from Corellon's domain? AFAIK, she had two "domains": one in the Abyss and another in Arvandor. I can't imagine that Eilistraee would send any of her petitioners to the Abyss domain. And Arvandor is technically ruled by the Seldarine / Corellon anyway. It is true that her domain didn't fall apart as has happened with other dead deities. And I will agree that she is probably still living in some form, perhaps a fey celestial of some sort. But she's a "dead power" because a) she gave up her divinity, and b) her worshippers believe she died. At the end of her godhood, her entire priesthood was made aware of this by Corellon, as he started accepting her priestesses as his own. She might be back in some form though, who knows?
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Or lest we forget Mask. He was stuck in a sword, but was still granting spells to his clerics, even though he was not technically "active" either.
Mask was "Godsbane" during the ToT, as the sword was his avatar. Magic was acting wonky for all priests during the ToT. Divine magic failed to work unless a priest was within a mile or so of their god's sole avatar. Remember?
quote:
And what about Bane? He was dead for quite some time, but his clerics still got their daily ration of divine power, until he was reborn as what's-his-name-funky-spelled-X-guy Baneson.
For a short time after Bane's death, Cyric granted spells to his priests (again, like with Myrkul's priests, in attempt to get them to transfer loyalty to him. It didn't last forever. Also, for a short time, Xvim was actually a lesser deity of his own accord. Once Xvim was essentially "eaten" and reborn as Bane, Bane started granting spells again.
Bhaal is still dead, and as a dead power he doesn't grant spells.
quote:
Gee, with all the "dead" gods floating around, how are ANY priests getting spells? Keep in mind that death is different for gods than it is for mortals. They still have power after they die, and can still influence things- mortals just go on to enjoy their happy reward (or nasty punishment, depending).
I've explained each one in some depth. The rule is still the rule, though: dead powers don't themselves grant spells to worshippers.
A very interesting question is whether or not a revived deity like Bane could go and retrieve souls that rigidly held to his faith while he was a dead power. Would Kelemvor allow Bane to retrieve any soul that had died while Bane was dead for those years, yet had kept the faith of Bane (not switching to Cyric)?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 08:31:17
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| Ye'd be referring to Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson/Baneson. I've always loved his symbol (as described in FR6 where he first appeared in the Realms): a pair of green, glowing eyes set upon a black field. It makes for some rather stylish robes and garment that gives his dark followers a delightfully sinister appearance. A few of these well-dressed fellows contrast quite vividly when accessorized with some priests of Kossuth. Evil minions are so much better when they're sharply dressed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8090 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 09:06:22
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Your question about who gets souls seems more complex than just Bane/Xvim.
Did (old) Jergal's souls get divided up between Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane? Then what happened when Cyric grabbed all their portfolios? What happened when Cyric stole Liera's complete portfolio (deception and illusion)? Or when he forced Mask to surrender a portion of his portfolio (intrigue)? Did all the eternal illusionists and spymasters suddenly relocate into Cyric's domain to afterlive happily ever after with the newly reacquainted assassins, tyrants, and necromongers? Were these souls later transferred elsewhere when Cyric lost most of his portfolios? Did Finder inherit all of Moander's rotten faithful? Or did they all just windfall their putrid divine energy into Talona's account instead? Did Tyche's faithful all flip coins to determine who went with Tymora and who with Beshaba? Do souls who serve Karsus walk forever beside the souls of those who loved the goddess he killed?
On a broader scale, a power's portfolio (core elements of belief) can change over time, be claimed by very different powers, or even disappear entirely. The power itself could evolve into an entirely new god of something very different. Would all the souls of believers be transferred to other gods around the planes? Would they all be reformatted for compatibility? It seems a power shouldn't be able to derive any spiritual sustenance/existence from incompatible souls. Would the souls, like their lost gods, become forgotten, dormant, and eventually fade into oblivion?
The souls might be eternal, but their promised rewards and afterlifes apparently aren't. The gods ain't so useful after all. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Feb 2011 09:32:26 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 12:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your question about who gets souls seems more complex than just Bane/Xvim.
Did (old) Jergal's souls get divided up between Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane? Then what happened when Cyric grabbed all their portfolios? What happened when Cyric stole Liera's complete portfolio (deception and illusion)? Or when he forced Mask to surrender a portion of his portfolio (intrigue)? Did all the eternal illusionists and spymasters suddenly relocate into Cyric's domain to afterlive happily ever after with the newly reacquainted assassins, tyrants, and necromongers? Were these souls later transferred elsewhere when Cyric lost most of his portfolios? Did Finder inherit all of Moander's rotten faithful? Or did they all just windfall their putrid divine energy into Talona's account instead? Did Tyche's faithful all flip coins to determine who went with Tymora and who with Beshaba? Do souls who serve Karsus walk forever beside the souls of those who loved the goddess he killed?
On a broader scale, a power's portfolio (core elements of belief) can change over time, be claimed by very different powers, or even disappear entirely. The power itself could evolve into an entirely new god of something very different. Would all the souls of believers be transferred to other gods around the planes? Would they all be reformatted for compatibility? It seems a power shouldn't be able to derive any spiritual sustenance/existence from incompatible souls. Would the souls, like their lost gods, become forgotten, dormant, and eventually fade into oblivion?
The souls might be eternal, but their promised rewards and afterlifes apparently aren't. The gods ain't so useful after all.
Post Time of Troubles where the faithful goes when a Power dies depends on several things. If the Powers domain dissolves for whatever reason then souls either get scatted across the multiverse(what am I doing in the 1313 layer of the Abyss) , recycled (reincarnation), picked up by an allied Power (Helm is gone come live in my house), goes back to Kelvemor for reassignment (reincarnation, allied god, or live with him), or be totally obliterated with their deity (Who says souls are eternal that is just speculation by mere mortals understanding of the ‘verse) Souls that are tricked by evil deity are doomed unless a rival god comes along to petition for its release. (Torm tried to do this with Cyric)
OR the soul can accept the new landlord.
Jergal didn’t die there is no need for him to give up his rightfully earned faithful.
Karsus was a Power for an extremely short amount of time. I seriously doubt he had any faithful. And if he did have some faithful, he sure as heck didn’t have anytime to go claim them .
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 17 Feb 2011 12:55:46 |
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IanVeers
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 15:01:43
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| I tend to sum up 4e as Post-Apocalyptic Faerun. Only not as fleshed out. (Which is the worst part in my opinion). It has a bit of Shadowrun flavor to it, in a sense that a series of world shattering events swept through and left the world a twisted yet intriguing husk of its former self. The problem with it being that it feels very rushed. As if WOTC should have done one but not the other. Either the apocalypse or the system change, not both. While the system change does not greatly effect your basic DnD player (with the exception of having to learn a new system). The system change has hit FR players harder because of the sudden shift between systems AND the alterations made to the Realms. It left most players feeling at more of a loss which in turn attributed to much of the negative response. All and all I'd say that while the new addition streamlined the system to make gameplay easier. It may not have been the best time to nuke the realms. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:06:16
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"Well, this would be a good analogy if there was only one company that you could work for in the world, they offered you one type of job, and then they set all the rules and determined salaries and benefits (again, entirely on their terms without your input). Then, if you "chose" to not accept their job offer (the only one ever available to you), they put you in prison until you died after slowly starving to death... that would be a better analogy.'
But there is more than one "company", and you could pick your "salary" and "benefits" based on which offer you prefer. and that's still better than NOT working for a "company" and starving. There is more than one type of "job", too, depending on which one you "work" for. and the prison part still works, too. They DID used to have debtors prisons for vagrants and those who could not pay, after all. Nowadays, you just end up in a shelter, but even then, you're still expected to put in SOME effort. The comparison still applies.
"When Amaunator was a dead power, he didn't grant anyone spells."
Then where did his remaining faithful get them? They had to come from somewhere. And don't just say Lathander.
"And no, the feat isn't useless. It's a method by which a PC can gain spells while worshipping a dead deity, and not get those spells from a demon or another god. The feat states clearly that the priest is aware their deity died, and through an act of intense faith they are somehow still able to connect to the remnants of that deity's power (at least for spells, if nothing else)."
That is exactly what I've been saying. You just agreed with me. Thanks!
"For a short time after Bane's death, Cyric granted spells to his priests (again, like with Myrkul's priests, in attempt to get them to transfer loyalty to him. It didn't last forever. Also, for a short time, Xvim was actually a lesser deity of his own accord. Once Xvim was essentially "eaten" and reborn as Bane, Bane started granting spells again."
And yet there was an entire sect of Banites that refused to turn to cyric and were STILL getting spells. where di those come from, I wonder? From the remaining "seed" of Bane, of course. Which explains why Xvim (stupid name BTW) was able to grant them later.
"Where does it say that Eilistraee's domain was separate from Corellon's domain? AFAIK, she had two "domains": one in the Abyss and another in Arvandor. I can't imagine that Eilistraee would send any of her petitioners to the Abyss domain. And Arvandor is technically ruled by the Seldarine / Corellon anyway. It is true that her domain didn't fall apart as has happened with other dead deities. And I will agree that she is probably still living in some form, perhaps a fey celestial of some sort. But she's a "dead power" because a) she gave up her divinity, and b) her worshippers believe she died. At the end of her godhood, her entire priesthood was made aware of this by Corellon, as he started accepting her priestesses as his own. She might be back in some form though, who knows?"
Actually, I believe she has three- Arvandor, the Abyss, and Svartalfheim in Asgard. She no longer uses the Abyss one, but Svartalfheim is still there, and it has NOTHING to do with the Seldarine. Also, her domain in Arvandor was always stated (in Planescape) to be "separate" from the rest of Arvandor, sitting at the very edges of it. It is still PART of it, but is its own domain as well. And there has been no indication that Corellon actually took her priests as his own. That was not stated in the novels. All he did was show them that her domain still existed, and accept her followers back into the Seldarine's domains. Nothing more is said of what became of them after that.
"Mask was "Godsbane" during the ToT, as the sword was his avatar. Magic was acting wonky for all priests during the ToT. Divine magic failed to work unless a priest was within a mile or so of their god's sole avatar. Remember?'
No, I had COMPLETELY forgotten. Of course I remember, but that was true for ALL of them. Yet even his preists still could, if they were close enough, by that recconing. Doesn't really prove anything. One could just as ealsily say that ALL the gods were "dead" at that point, outside of the one-mile radius of their avatars.
Tell you what- I'll let you "win" this arguement, since it seems to mean that much to you. You can be "right" this time, and save the rest of us the burden/troulbe of it. I guess those who disagree with you will just have to settle for being "wrong" this time. Happy? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by IanVeers
I tend to sum up 4e as Post-Apocalyptic Faerun. Only not as fleshed out. (Which is the worst part in my opinion). It has a bit of Shadowrun flavor to it, in a sense that a series of world shattering events swept through and left the world a twisted yet intriguing husk of its former self. The problem with it being that it feels very rushed. As if WOTC should have done one but not the other. Either the apocalypse or the system change, not both. While the system change does not greatly effect your basic DnD player (with the exception of having to learn a new system). The system change has hit FR players harder because of the sudden shift between systems AND the alterations made to the Realms. It left most players feeling at more of a loss which in turn attributed to much of the negative response. All and all I'd say that while the new addition streamlined the system to make gameplay easier. It may not have been the best time to nuke the realms.
The best thing a player can do in this situation is ignore the changes that they don't like. There are changes that I don't like about FR4E like Elistraee being gone for one. So what I did is kept her in, ignored the War of the Spider Queen series altogether, which also gave room for the other Drow deities in that pantheon too. One might ask, "well if she's alive and well, what do divine classes do about keeping her flavor in with the mechanics?" and to this I say, I make it up and homebrew it to suit my needs. Ta-Da!!
The question I still ask is, How would someone handle the Edition change to all the races, classes, etc. and still keep everything the same in the Realms WHILE incorporating such changes? |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:17:42
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This is the one thing I wanted to comment on while not stepping into this debate....
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
"When Amaunator was a dead power, he didn't grant anyone spells."
Then where did his remaining faithful get them? They had to come from somewhere. And don't just say Lathander.
"And no, the feat isn't useless. It's a method by which a PC can gain spells while worshipping a dead deity, and not get those spells from a demon or another god. The feat states clearly that the priest is aware their deity died, and through an act of intense faith they are somehow still able to connect to the remnants of that deity's power (at least for spells, if nothing else)."
That is exactly what I've been saying. You just agreed with me. Thanks!
The feat was printed in Lost Empires of Faerûn which also published a prestige class called the Sunmaster. This PrC required the Servant of the Fallen feat because it was a group of Ex-Lathanderites turned Amaunatori that belived in the 3-Sun Heresy. To gain spells FROM Amaunator, they needed this feat to do so. Without this feat, Amaunatori would NOT gain spells because Amaunator was considered "forgotten" and thus, couln't grant spells.
So we agree that the feat is good if you want to serve a dead deity and gain power from said dead deity because doing so without this feat is pointless. I also feel that there should be a feat in the Forgotten Realms supplements that allows non-patronage divine classes to gain spells if they have enough zeal and fervor in a specific belief. But that's just my 2-cents. |
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E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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My Questions and Opinions Regarding 4e
