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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 06:20:36
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Tyrant: Er, you must have missed the edit to my last post. I had hoped I got it fixed before it was read, but... sSrry of the confusion. RW, ignore that earlier post at you. chalk it up to being over-tired and not seeing the end of a post...
Anyway- Tyrant: "I'm approaching it from the assumption that their machinations will not remain a mystery forever and the Zulkirs will find out who is messing with their program. If you approach it from that assumption, I think an out assault looks more appealing because you will hopefully catch enough of the upper level types off guard that you will ensure their eventual defeat. I hate to compare this to a Nicholas Cage movie, but it's a similar idea to what he says in Gone in 60 Seconds. They are confronted with 2 choices in how they will go about stealing the cars they need to steal. Option A is subterfuge and misdirection to mislead the cops. Option B is to do it as hard and fast as possible. The downside of Option A is that it tips off the cops that something is going on, Option B counts on being able to get the job done before they know what's going on. We disagree on which option is the better option against Thay. I do not believe option B is always the best option, I just believe it is the best option against Thay."
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Well, I can see why you might think that, but life almost always has more than just one or two choices in any given situation. It's not just "go in and start a war with Thay or send in a Chosen and have them start a rebellion". There are other choices, too- sabotage their slavery operations, start a grass-roots anti-slavery movement sponsored by one or more influential churches, use political or economic pressure, negotiate with other nations to threaten to cut of trade with slave nations, stage peaceful resistance by the slaves themselves, etc... Also, simply starting a war is most certainly NOT the best solution, as all that does is result in the massive deaths of many of the very people one is trying to free- since they are the first once the zulkirs would send into battle. Much like Menzo's Houses use their slaves as battle-fodder. So, um, yeah- kind of self-defeating to the purpose.
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"I look at it like this. The Zulkirs are quite likely to go out in a blaze of glory taking as much down with them as they can if they know their down fall is assured. If they know one of the Chosen is directly involved, they will intentionally target some epic level destructive magic on something they know the Chosen love just for spite. Maybe whatever the Chosen have in place to stop that will hold, maybe it won't. Or, they directly challenge the Chosen and it ends in a spell storm of epic proportions that could easily leave some place (maybe Thay, maybe the heart of Cormyr) devoid of life or swimming in chaotic magics for quite some time. I believe the potential for a massively destructive final battle is something that stays their hand. You disagree and believe that the potential outcome is worth the risk. I think careful consideration of all potential consequences is in order. Things may get better, or they may get worse.
As for the "greater good", there's a reason why that statement is despised by many. The "greater good" has the obvious implication that someone is going to get screwed. Hearing about the greater good is usually little comfort to those who are on the other end of things. However, that outlook is often a necessary evil. In our world, would the greater good have been served by going to war with the Soviets so as to free their people from their iron rule? I say it wouldn't have been because the likely consequences included all out nuclear war which means we all lose the game. Happiness for some is better than happiness for none in other words. I believe you and I disagree on how likely the "they all lose" outcome is in meddling in the affairs of Thay. I say, let the system collapse in on itself instead of giving them an enemy to focus on. I also believe that the Chosen are held back by Mystra. They serve her interests first and foremost, and her interests don't always coincide with "good" or "moral"."
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First of all, I never said specifically that one or more of the Chosen should deal with it, hence why I also mentioned the Harpers and several churches opposed to such evils. Any one or all could become involved, or some other group altogether. For that matter, who said they had to get involved directly? It could be something as simple as getting things started from the inside, and then stepping aside to watch the regime collapse. Certainly the Harpers for one have many agents who might be capable of starting some kind of rebellion or exerting influence on neighboring countries to halt trade with any nation that keeps slaves. Or for that matter, have a bunch of gnomish inventors go in and build machines that provide cheaper and more efficient labor to undermine the very purpose of slavery! (I've suggested this elsewhere, and I think it's actually a very viable solution. Greed always speaks louder than morality when it comes to ending inhumane practices. Give them a better option, and they'd take it in a heart-beat.)
The point is, there does not have to be any overt conflict involved at all, if one is creative enough and willing to take a few chances. Believe, me, I have indeed considered possible consequences of various methods, and war is the worst of them all. As for the Chosen's priority to Mystra first, this is true, but they also each have their own ideals and goals. They may be her champions, but one must remember two things, that the "new" Mystra is basically good and promotes the welfare of ALL through magic, and that none of her Chosen is a walking tool of her will. They are still free-willed "mortal" individuals with their own thoughts and beliefs which may or may not coincide with hers. Most of them do not even overtly worship her. Storm does not, for one, and Quilue did not either. In fact, I'm sure most of them are only partially loyal to her simply through the circumstances of how they achieved their status as Chosen in the first place. Somehow, I suspect that none of the Seven Sisters actually ASKED to be born as Chosen. But that's a side-issue.
I'd like to point out that ANY individual or group could get involved with that particular issue (and thus we'd have another RSE- see, I managed to sneak in a reference to the OP topic!) bu for some reason, no one ever HAS. Perhaps they were all just adopting the "wait and see" attitude you seem to think is such a good solution to the problem.
As to the "greater good" you keep mentioning- greater good for whom? Certainly not the people WHO ARE BEING OPPRESSED. That would be like saying that slavery in the US before the Civil War was for the greater good, because no one was getting shot over it then. But we all know that it was not good for anyone but the people who profited from it. Calling it a necessary evil is a cheap answer. I believe that there is no such thing as a necessary evil when it comes to suppressing basic rights. You say happiness for some, but the truth is, there IS no happiness for anyone in an evil empire like that, unless you count the people in power. And exactly how long should one wait for this hypothetical self-crumbling to occur, anyway? Thay and Calimshan have operated in that fashion for centuries, and I don't see them crumbling under their own evil any time soon. So who benefits? Some hypothetical future resident who may or may not be born? What about the people ALREADY suffering? Would you tell them to be patient and wait for the zulkirs to destroy themselves and freedom to magically come to them? I don't think so. Might as well tell them the freedom fairy will visit their grandkids. Somehow, I doubt that would make them feel any better.... Or help anyone in the long run.
I'd like to quote a line that sums up my thoughts on this: "Evil prevails when good men do nothing." I think that says it all. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 15:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Not all opinions are equally valid or even accurate.
I believe this is part of the fundamental level of the disagreement. Opinions are neither accurate nor inaccurate.
You might believe this, but you're wrong. It's a belief that stems from a mistaken understanding of what opinions are, and generally reducing the definition of "opinion" solely to a matter of personal preference. That is one type of opinion, yes, but it isn't the only kind. Medical opinions, for instance, are not based solely in fact, but they can be accurate or inaccurate depending upon the skill and experience of the practitioner (and not just factual clinical results).
I was responding to someone else's assertion that opinions relating to a novel's quality were all equal, and they aren't. When one offers an opinion on the quality of a thing, such opinions can in fact be incredibly inaccurate if the person has little experience or training in literary critique. An inexperienced person could say that Tolkien is "horribly written, plodding drivel" and they would be wrong. An uninformed, untrained person cannot offer the same level of opinion as someone who is professionally trained to form opinions in their area of expertise. Academic opinions, those that are informed by training, experience, or both, are not wholly subjective.
quote:
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Similarly, you don't go to a teenage girl who has only read Twilight and ask her for an opinion about which vampire novels are the best. By way of experience (speaking of the average teen girl), she has not read enough to have a sophisticated palate, nor is she professionally trained in the critical analysis of literature.
Her answer will be Twilight, because to her it is the best (unless she disliked it, in which case it's the worst). She is not factually wrong. I would disagree with her, but I can't point to a set of facts and conclusively state that she is wrong. I can elaborate on my opinion of the shortcomings of the book (though I won't because I won't read it). If there are actual mechanical flaws, I can point them out. Beyond that, I can't conclusively say to her "you're wrong" if I am being remotely honest with myself. I can construct an argument, but it will be based on my opinions and not on a set of facts.
Again, as I had stated previously, if you limited opinion solely to matters of personal preference, then yes everyone's personal preference is on an equal level.
But the question here was about quality, and quality of writing is an academic issue that is not entirely subjective. People who are limited in their experience or who are untrained for literary analysis offer their "opinions" all the time, as if their opinion on quality is no different than an experienced professional. And it happens not only in literature, but also with medicine and other sciences. Are they right? Would you trust a medical opinion from someone with a high school education? No, you wouldn't, because their opinions don't have the same value.
This is why professionals are paid more for their opinions than non-professionals. Informed opinions are worth more because they're better, are more valuable, and aren't just "the same" as the average person.
quote:
The value of opinion is entirely subjective and will change from one person to another and no amount of trying to tell me that opinion is fact will change that.
You're wrong on both counts here. I'm not arguing that opinions are fact, I'm stating that not all opinions are equally valuable. Also, the value of an opinion is not "entirely subjective" otherwise we would pay doctors and poets the same for their opinions on medical matters. If you understand why, then you'll understand why not all opinions are equally valuable or even valid.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 17:51:58
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Again, the RSE policy wasn't a situation of passively responding to market demands; it was a taste, among a large subgroup of the novel readership, that was deliberately fostered.
'Will this please more readers than it alienates?' was a correct question to ask, but it's a short-term one: the cumulative effect of RSEs, retcons, and such editorial decisions, by different design teams with different goals (often external to the setting itself and/or its product line) and personal likes, was to gradually erode the Realms and its credibility, as an artistic construct and among players and readers. This includes decisions I personally liked. I think the published Realms has shown spectacular vigour in withstanding this scarifying wear and tear, and would have long ago disintegrated without Ed's continual injection of material -- whose vivid life quite belies the equation of 'making the setting live' with advancing the timeline -- and the work of the scholar-scribes.
Now, a Realms publishing programme to my tastes or Ed's would have had its own difficulties, but that doesn't lessen the harmful trade-offs and short-sighted or egostistical mistakes that were made. |
Edited by - Faraer on 28 Jan 2011 18:05:43 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:24:19
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Would I value the opinion of a twelve year old kid on what I should do if I have heart disease vs. what my doctor would tell me to do?
Of course not. I’d listen to the kid had to say—sometimes kids come up with really damn good ideas—but I’d follow the doctor’s advice because we’re talking life and death; itself a topic not all that prone to subjectivity.
However, not every topic in life that we have opinions about is a stark, life and death issue.
There is a fallacy in the belief that the opinions of educated people are automatically better. Likewise the belief that if we’re paying someone good money for their educated opinion, then their opinion must be better.
Specifically, the fallacy lay in the assumption that the opinions of these people are equally useful to all other people.
Why is someone’s opinion, if that person is educated, better for me then what a twelve year old has to say to me on the same subject?
Naturally, it depends on the subject. It also depends on what kind of opinion I’m looking for.
Can an opinionated critic, known for his strong literary analytical ability and firm belief system of what writers should and should not do, relate how Twilight speaks to him on an emotional, 12 year old girl level as well as a well read 12 year old girl can?
The fallacy hinges on the use of words like “quality”. In this discussion, some would have us think quality refers to all the particulars about a book or written work that (supposedly) only educated people know and care about, i.e. an “academic issue”.
They academics may have laid claim to the word, but they sure as hell don’t own it.
The problem for the academics is that quality isn’t set in stone. It’s variable. You measure quality of a written work relative to the people reading the work.
Note I’m not talking about subjective opinions from the people reading a given book; I’m talking about whether the work did what it set out to do for its intended audience.
Academics would have us believe there are rules, these rules are set and stone and if you deviate, your work is of poor quality.
Sometimes they get so lost in the mechanics of how things work that they fail to let something actually work on them. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 28 Jan 2011 18:34:36 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Academics would have us believe there are rules, these rules are set and stone and if you deviate, your work is of poor quality.
Sometimes they get so lost in the mechanics of how things work that they fail to let something actually work on them.
For what it's worth, these comments don't reflect my current or past experience of the academy or of academics.
Cheers,
Christopher
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:49:16
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Okay, I think we need to move on from the topics of who does and does not have a valid opinion, or what defines quality.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 20:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I think we need to move on from the topics of who does and does not have a valid opinion, or what defines quality.
I am pretty sure that an ISO designation determines quality and yet I am unaware of any game/setting that carries such a designation. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 21:10:49
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| Y'know, I think part of the reason there have been so many RSE's is reader expectation. They read about a character, and every story has to have something new to challenge them, and that means bigger, because if it was small or just another encounter with the same old kinds of BBG's, it would get stale, so then they have to up the stakes nad make it more of a challenge. Which means bigger events, and then you end up with RSE's very quickly, and once you have one, you can't really go backward. You just have to keep throwing more major catastrophies at the characters, until you either kill them, or the readers no longer want to read about them. After a certain point, though, it gets repetative and ridiculously unrealistic. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 21:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Y'know, I think part of the reason there have been so many RSE's is reader expectation. They read about a character, and every story has to have something new to challenge them, and that means bigger, because if it was small or just another encounter with the same old kinds of BBG's, it would get stale, so then they have to up the stakes nad make it more of a challenge. Which means bigger events, and then you end up with RSE's very quickly, and once you have one, you can't really go backward. You just have to keep throwing more major catastrophies at the characters, until you either kill them, or the readers no longer want to read about them. After a certain point, though, it gets repetative and ridiculously unrealistic.
This reader thinks characters can be challenged without each tale being bigger and bigger. Alias of the Azure Bonds took on several enemies in her first appearance, just one in her second appearance, and just one in the third. She went from an alliance consisting of a fiend, a fallen deity, a mage, a lich, and assassins, to just the fallen deity, to just a single deceitful lover. She started with a big challenge, but did not go to bigger ones -- yet the stories about her remain some of my favorites. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 10:00:14
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A few observations on the excellent Paul/Erik discussion as I get to them:
I don't think logical possibility of RSEs, in terms of literal consistency, is the most useful thing to argue over: it's too low a bar and impossibility is too high, especially when you can rationalize that previous understandings were off. That's an approach that's quite legitimate in principle -- the Realms was narrated unreliably to allow such revelations -- but open to abuse.
We won't all agree on what counts as abuse because we see different parts of the Realms as central and fundamental, which is good and proper, but some areas are clearer in this sense than others. There are times when the Realms has been well managed and others where people threw their creative weight around with insufficient care, when it seems enormous creativity was put into thinking of ways to do anything but just publish the setting and tell its characters' stories. This points to another source of disagreement: what degree of fulfillment-of-implicit-potentials is proper before moving on to new ones?
The objection to the Shar/Mystra thing isn't just that it distorts Shar but that it distorts Mystra, turning her from the goddess of magic, worshipped by evil mages as well as good, towards a heroic protagonist in a dualistic conflict, contributing to her loss from the latest iteration of the setting. The Shadow Weave, a sop to the 'Mystra's too powerful' lot by turning the magical metaphysics of Toril into a duality (depending on whose description you read), had the effect of further foregrounding her.
Re Alystra's point: I'd quibble that RSEs were always a fairly fixed, self-conscious category and the inflation rarely took ordinary stories into RSE territory. But OK, the question then is what did the published Realms have in common with other milieux that succumbed to such self-topping acceleration? |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 15:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
A few observations on the excellent Paul/Erik discussion as I get to them:
Excellent summation and good points. I agree.
I think that RSEs are a natural result of the interaction with the Gods that came into the Realms. I'd be curious to discover whose idea the Chosen were, because I think every RSE from the ToT flows from that event and from the advent of the Chosen. Afterall, Elminster and the Sisters are not Chosen in the Grey set. Making Gods and demigods characters could not help but shake the Realms again and again.
Usually FR detractors point to Greyhawk as to how it should be done, but really Greyhawk suffered similarly. Gygax turned Iuz into a character in his own novels, and steadily shifed the PCs and his novel character, Gord, towards Godhood, even when he technically was no longer writing for Greyhawk. He eneded up totally destroying Oerth.
My thoughts on taste and quality (not restarting that conversation, just explaining) are leading me towards a reevaluation of current FR - as a novel setting. As a game setting I still think FR has been shattered but I'm thinking for fiction it is not toast.
Which leads me to a very old article by Gygax, I can't recall the Dragon issue off the top of my head, where he rags on Lord of the Rings and argues that novels make poor game settings. When i read it as a tennager I dismissed it as I did much of his Dragon writing as overly opinionated and blind to potential. And I still think he makes the case too strongly.
But I'm wondering if that is the real issue here, that it's not really that the Gods became characters, but rather the multi-media nature of the Realms that doomed it. As others have noticed all other multi-media settings seem to have RSE issues also.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 16:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
A few observations on the excellent Paul/Erik discussion as I get to them:
Excellent summation and good points. I agree.
I think that RSEs are a natural result of the interaction with the Gods that came into the Realms. I'd be curious to discover whose idea the Chosen were, because I think every RSE from the ToT flows from that event and from the advent of the Chosen.
I asked Ed about that, once. Elminster and the Seven were Chosen long before the advent of the Old Grey Box -- it just wasn't something that addressed until much later, in the printed setting.
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Afterall, Elminster and the Sisters are not Chosen in the Grey set. Making Gods and demigods characters could not help but shake the Realms again and again.
No, it's mistreating those characters and the setting they're in that does it. Since Ed made them Chosen long before TSR knocked on his door, then we know they are Chosen in his home campaign. But he keeps them in his originally intended role of NPCs who pop up, give advice or send characters on a quest, and then disappear again.
Heck, Spellfire was one of the earliest Realms novels, and it involves at least three Chosen -- but they were Chosen who stood back and let everyone stand or fall on their own. Even Shandril was allowed to stand or fall on her own.
And Ed hasn't had any RSEs in his home campaign.
It was TSR who insisted on putting more and more of the spotlight on characters who were never intended to be in the spotlight. It was later designers who decided that since RSEs sell, we have to have more of them. That decision came independently of the Chosen, since we've got RSEs that don't involve them.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jan 2011 16:25:07 |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 17:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Y'know, I think part of the reason there have been so many RSE's is reader expectation. They read about a character, and every story has to have something new to challenge them, and that means bigger, because if it was small or just another encounter with the same old kinds of BBG's, it would get stale, so then they have to up the stakes nad make it more of a challenge. Which means bigger events, and then you end up with RSE's very quickly, and once you have one, you can't really go backward. You just have to keep throwing more major catastrophies at the characters, until you either kill them, or the readers no longer want to read about them. After a certain point, though, it gets repetative and ridiculously unrealistic.
This reader thinks characters can be challenged without each tale being bigger and bigger. Alias of the Azure Bonds took on several enemies in her first appearance, just one in her second appearance, and just one in the third. She went from an alliance consisting of a fiend, a fallen deity, a mage, a lich, and assassins, to just the fallen deity, to just a single deceitful lover. She started with a big challenge, but did not go to bigger ones -- yet the stories about her remain some of my favorites.
Mine too Wooly, mine too. But thanks to the powers that be, they killed them off and they are not coming back.  
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 20:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, it's mistreating those characters and the setting they're in that does it. Since Ed made them Chosen long before TSR knocked on his door, then we know they are Chosen in his home campaign. But he keeps them in his originally intended role of NPCs who pop up, give advice or send characters on a quest, and then disappear again.
I'm not certain I totally believe that. It seems pretty obvious the 7 sisters were not 7 in his original campaign, and Storm and Dive certainly came across in all his early material as a Ranger and a Bard, not demigods.
Regardless, Ed's a great guy but the only Realms we can judge is the published Realms. His home campaign just sin't relevant to the rest of us. I have a very similar reaction to 'Gygax's Greyhawk' and those who say 'Gary never would have done this or that.'
I agree that TSR and later WotC seems to have focused on these godly characters (the Chosen and the actual gods) but I still don't get it. Salvatore is clearly the best selling realms author, and his work has no gods, the Chosen only appear on the periphery, and his style has always been a straight throwback to old-school Sword and Sorcery tales ala Conan or Lieber. (Moorcock was fond of RSEs in his own works).
So, why did they focus on so many godly tales rather than following salvatiore's lead with more traditional S&S tales which would have benefited the RPG setting?
I don't know. Perhaps they just really like Denning. 
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 21:24:08
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On the publishing calendar we're in Spring 2011. Outside Ed's Elminster novels, when was the last time a Realms novel, article, module, or other product heavily featured the Chosen or the gods? With the exception of the Spellplague and hundred year jump (two enormous exceptions, I know, but bear with me), what was the last RSE in the published Realms?
Am I wrong in my impression that the frequency of gods/Chosen/RSE presentations in the novels and gaming products has gone down? Both in real terms and as a percentage of published material?
Cheers,
Christopher
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 23:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Y'know, I think part of the reason there have been so many RSE's is reader expectation. They read about a character, and every story has to have something new to challenge them, and that means bigger, because if it was small or just another encounter with the same old kinds of BBG's, it would get stale, so then they have to up the stakes nad make it more of a challenge. Which means bigger events, and then you end up with RSE's very quickly, and once you have one, you can't really go backward. You just have to keep throwing more major catastrophies at the characters, until you either kill them, or the readers no longer want to read about them. After a certain point, though, it gets repetative and ridiculously unrealistic.
This reader thinks characters can be challenged without each tale being bigger and bigger. Alias of the Azure Bonds took on several enemies in her first appearance, just one in her second appearance, and just one in the third. She went from an alliance consisting of a fiend, a fallen deity, a mage, a lich, and assassins, to just the fallen deity, to just a single deceitful lover. She started with a big challenge, but did not go to bigger ones -- yet the stories about her remain some of my favorites.
Well, of course I was speaking in general terms in that regard. I suppose it depends on the writers, really. I personally try to stay out of the RSE arena when I write, as I recognize the pitfalls of such stories. Hey, I read comics, don't I? So although it's not REQUIRED for challenges to be bigger and more earth-shaking as time goes by and the characters continue along, it's certainly a common trend, perhaps due to lack of creativity on the part of (some) writers. I'm not saying they aren't still good writers, just that some of them may not be as good at finding ways to keep the challenges from growing ridiculously huge and inviting RSE's into the equation. Not every writer can handle that kind of problem well.
Then again, others may up the stakes intentionally, for the same reason that other media likes to sensationalize the news- because they know it sells product. Again, not saying this is a bad thing or that it's been the case with the Realms, but it seems plausible, and WotC does most of the assigning of stories these days, so it may well be happening. This is one of the reasons I would be reluctant to sell a story to them, as I know that it would then open my writing up to having them dictate where my stories should go. Which is probably the only reason I have not (thus far) opted to contribute tales to THIS particular shared-world, at least. I have had similar reservations about my hero-tales set in the Marvel universe, for basically the same reason. I don't want to see my vision for the characters I created be railroaded into directions I disagree with as a writer/creator. In my own HB world setting, I have had ONE RSE, and that is set in the early mythological beginnings of the world, and involved two gods battling and literally changing the landscape in the process, but there have been no others since. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 02:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
On the publishing calendar we're in Spring 2011. Outside Ed's Elminster novels, when was the last time a Realms novel, article, module, or other product heavily featured the Chosen or the gods? With the exception of the Spellplague and hundred year jump (two enormous exceptions, I know, but bear with me), what was the last RSE in the published Realms?
Am I wrong in my impression that the frequency of gods/Chosen/RSE presentations in the novels and gaming products has gone down? Both in real terms and as a percentage of published material?
My impression was that eliminating them was why WOTC did the Spellplague and 100 year jump, as I medntioned earlier, they seem to have decided the Realm's critics were right and so they decided to wipe the slate clean.
It seems odd to me, because you end up alienating your original fans an the critics are coming over anyway. But that was the goal, as I understood it.
I mean, no one seriously looked at the Realms and said, "The best thing to do for this setting is to kill off its goddess of magic and mahe it a post-magical apocalypse world."
Did they?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 02:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, it's mistreating those characters and the setting they're in that does it. Since Ed made them Chosen long before TSR knocked on his door, then we know they are Chosen in his home campaign. But he keeps them in his originally intended role of NPCs who pop up, give advice or send characters on a quest, and then disappear again.
I'm not certain I totally believe that. It seems pretty obvious the 7 sisters were not 7 in his original campaign, and Storm and Dive certainly came across in all his early material as a Ranger and a Bard, not demigods.
Ed said it himself. If you're going to disbelieve his own words, I'm afraid we have nothing more to discuss.
And here are those words:
quote:
Ah, shrewdly spoken, Melfius! Well said!
Hello, all. Herewith, Ed replies to darling Woolpert:
Wooly Rupert, Elminster and the Seven Sisters were ALWAYS Chosen of Mystra as they came into personal focus (in other words, by about 1972 I knew what a Chosen of Mystra was, some of the identities of the Chosen, and a lot about Mystra herself; I hadn’t figured out who the Seventh Sister was, and in fact left that for Steven Schend to deal with, much later, but before there ever was a D&D game, I knew that a select circle of powerful folk, many of the ladies being sisters who had silver hair and were ‘almost’ daughters to Mystra, were ‘special’ servants of hers, called the Chosen).
When TSR first purchased the Realms, this matter was informally discussed VERY briefly and then kept for my home campaign rather than being championed into print (I believe the thinking on the TSR end was that Dragonlance had used gods masquerading as mortal characters or developing from mortals before the readers’ eyes, so this Dragonlance-specific element had to be omitted from the Realms, but this is just a personal guess).
I dropped plenty of hints as to a ‘special relationship’ between Khelben, El, the Sisters, and Mystra and Azuth, and particularly between El and Mystra, during my 1986 turnover packages to Jeff Grubb at TSR, but you have to peer very carefully at the Old Gray Box to see hints of them.
The formal relationship was properly introduced to TSR later on for the same reasons I’d created it originally: they wanted to know why in tarnation certain characters could do, or had accomplished, what they did (and the status of Chosen was the explanation).
I know some TSR folks thought this was a mistake, and others welcomed the ‘superhero’ flavor the Chosen might be able to inject into the Realms (this being a currently-enticing design philosophy, at the time), but for me, it was merely revealing the explanation for why the Zhents hadn’t swept away Shadowdale long ago, the bad guys weren’t ALREADY ruling the known Realms, and so on: there had to be vigorous Forces For Good or Stability or the Status Quo ‘on the ground’ in the Realms, working against the jackbooted hurl-all-walls-down-ers.
Please note that this was part of limiting Mystra’s dominant divine power, and that only she was to have Chosen. Continuing the superhero vein, other creators working in the Realms invented Chosen of X and Chosen of Y, but it was never intended that other deities have Chosen who were more than mortal champions or individuals marked with the deity’s favor: Mystra was and is ‘special.’ As the goddess of magic in a high-magic world, she has to be.
So yes, “El and Storm and Khelben and the rest” WERE “Chosen from the beginning,” but the decision to feature them as such WAS “decided later on.”
So saith Ed. I’ve read longhand pencil manuscripts of Ed stories that bear dates in the early 1970s (before there was a D&D game) that refer to various characters being Chosen (one passage I recall was: “So it comes to this, Chosen of Mystra. Think you your fancy titles impress me, or will avail you one finger’s-worth in deciding this fray?”).
love to all,
THO
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Excellent summation and good points. I agree.
I think that RSEs are a natural result of the interaction with the Gods that came into the Realms. I'd be curious to discover whose idea the Chosen were, because I think every RSE from the ToT flows from that event and from the advent of the Chosen. Afterall, Elminster and the Sisters are not Chosen in the Grey set. Making Gods and demigods characters could not help but shake the Realms again and again.
Usually FR detractors point to Greyhawk as to how it should be done, but really Greyhawk suffered similarly. Gygax turned Iuz into a character in his own novels, and steadily shifed the PCs and his novel character, Gord, towards Godhood, even when he technically was no longer writing for Greyhawk. He eneded up totally destroying Oerth.
My thoughts on taste and quality (not restarting that conversation, just explaining) are leading me towards a reevaluation of current FR - as a novel setting. As a game setting I still think FR has been shattered but I'm thinking for fiction it is not toast.
Which leads me to a very old article by Gygax, I can't recall the Dragon issue off the top of my head, where he rags on Lord of the Rings and argues that novels make poor game settings. When i read it as a tennager I dismissed it as I did much of his Dragon writing as overly opinionated and blind to potential. And I still think he makes the case too strongly.
But I'm wondering if that is the real issue here, that it's not really that the Gods became characters, but rather the multi-media nature of the Realms that doomed it. As others have noticed all other multi-media settings seem to have RSE issues also.
Ah. My favourite subject as to "why the published Realms do not really work for me." Interesting discussion - I remember you from the Spelljammer-L lists, Paul, and I have to say - you have not lost your touch  . For me, the turning point came somewhere in the mid-nineties, when the Realms shifted from being primarily a game setting with an attached novel line to becoming an attempt to be both gaming setting and fiction setting in equal measures. My long-held view is that a setting can be a good gaming setting (which requires a degree of stasis) or a good "Big novel" setting (which requires change, and a lot of it). I'd say that the only way in which you can have a setting that incorporates both fiction and gaming supplements as sources of canon, is if you make the novels only develop areas that were not developed in the gaming setting (FR examples: the Horde and Maztica trilogies), keep them small (the Harpers series and the Azure Bonds trilogies spring to mind), and if you must have Big Event Novels, use them to develop the history of the setting, provided that they do not change the present (the Dragonlance setting had some examples of this; the first Moonshae trilogy also falls in this category, to an extent; the beef I have with that one of that the gaming supplement was set even before that, and outside the timeframe of the main campaign setting).
The minute you start introducing fiction that has a setting-wide impact (a trend set off mostly with the advent of 3E, and in particular the return of Shade; I'm ignoring the Time of Troubles here, because that one intervened very early in the life of the product line), the setting as a game setting suffers.
With 4E, the emphasis has shifted even more towards the Realms being a setting for fiction.
So in general I agree with that post (and thanks for allowing me an unfettered opportunity to ride my little hobby horse again), but I am going to disagree on Greyhawk. I have not read Gygax's Gord novels (but thanks to the interweb, I've been able to get the general gist). There's one important distinction: the Gord series did not become Greyhawk canon, unlike the FR novels, which are all considered canon. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed said it himself. If you're going to disbelieve his own words, I'm afraid we have nothing more to discuss.
That reads pretty definitely. Too bad, I was giving Ed an out, no he's right back to sharing the blame for the RSEs. 
They did do a pretty thorough job of eliminating them, I literally just read the NPC entries in my old grey boxed set before coming down here.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:22:45
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| Why exactly are we blaming the RSE's on Ed? The Chosen were never intended as catalysts for these kinds of events, and in fact, most of them played only minor roles in the two main RSE's themselves- Elminster held part of Mystra's essence during ToT, leaving most of the action to Midnight and crew, and then the Spellplague involved, well, every magic-user in Faerun. The Chosen were not the major players in either one- the gods themselves were. I hardly think any of that was even Ed's idea as much as it was TSR/WotC's. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Interesting discussion - I remember you from the Spelljammer-L lists, Paul, and I have to say - you have not lost your touch .
Thanks, I guess you can come home again. Did you use the same username then? I do miss the SJ-L, perhaps even more then the Realms. because SJ has been a dead setting so long there were fewer fights.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
So in general I agree with that post (and thanks for allowing me an unfettered opportunity to ride my little hobby horse again), but I am going to disagree on Greyhawk. I have not read Gygax's Gord novels (but thanks to the interweb, I've been able to get the general gist). There's one important distinction: the Gord series did not become Greyhawk canon, unlike the FR novels, which are all considered canon.
Well, the first two Gord novels were TSR products and they were canon. Only Gord himself seems to have been ignored. The NPCs all remained, IIRC. And absolutely the struggle between good and evil Gygax established there and in the Dragon articles did set up Greyhawk's own RSE, the Greyhawk Wars even though the Gygax die-hards claimed that was not 'Gygaxian.'
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Why exactly are we blaming the RSE's on Ed? The Chosen were never intended as catalysts for these kinds of events, and in fact, most of them played only minor roles in the two main RSE's themselves- Elminster held part of Mystra's essence during ToT, leaving most of the action to Midnight and crew, and then the Spellplague involved, well, every magic-user in Faerun. The Chosen were not the major players in either one- the gods themselves were. I hardly think any of that was even Ed's idea as much as it was TSR/WotC's.
'blame' is too harsh, but he did set the course. Ed started getting the Gods involved early, came up with the GodsWar, and all of the RSEs have involved the gods. Ed wrote the ToT adventures, actually, and they heavily involved Elminster and Khelben.
My point is that to some extent RSEs are a natural part of the Realms, I think. We tend to think of them as foreign infection in FR's body.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:43:09
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| Odd, When I read the Avatar books, El and Khelban really played only minor roles. And that was mostly toward the end. As for the GodsWar itself, well, considering the portfolios and personalities of many of the gods in Faerun, something like it was bound to happen eventually, regardless of who came up with it. The seeds of the GodsWar were planted with the creation of Shar, Mystra, Sylune, and Mask. Helm and Bane, too, most likely. As you said, it's a natural part of the Realsm- which I don't believe the Spellplague was. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 13:05:47
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They are an ''foreign infection''. I agree with my player Maruluthu here. Why not have two universes, the comics have how many Earths? Personally I have no problems with ignoring ridiculous things in the Realms, but it seems for a lot of people their gaming experience is ruined by the novels. Screw the novels, make them Abeir or a part of Shar's horrible alternate timeline dimension. Then let people who have proven to keep the Realms consistent pick ideas from the novels into the gaming material as plots-hooks. The novel readers don't care anyway. The RSEs are like the yellow journalism, not believable, but they get you going.
I know there's no way in hell this going to happen, just this thread. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 13:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I think that RSEs are a natural result of the interaction with the Gods that came into the Realms. I'd be curious to discover whose idea the Chosen were, because I think every RSE from the ToT flows from that event and from the advent of the Chosen. Afterall, Elminster and the Sisters are not Chosen in the Grey set. Making Gods and demigods characters could not help but shake the Realms again and again.
Usually FR detractors point to Greyhawk as to how it should be done, but really Greyhawk suffered similarly. Gygax turned Iuz into a character in his own novels, and steadily shifed the PCs and his novel character, Gord, towards Godhood, even when he technically was no longer writing for Greyhawk. He eneded up totally destroying Oerth.
. . .
But I'm wondering if that is the real issue here, that it's not really that the Gods became characters, but rather the multi-media nature of the Realms that doomed it. As others have noticed all other multi-media settings seem to have RSE issues also.
Mortal encounters with gods were part of both settings from the start: Mielikki and Florin, other involvements in Ed's campaigns and backstories, as generalized in F&A, the theoretical possibility of a Godswar; '9 demi-gods, 3 demon lords and a handful of Norse and other gods' involved in the Greyhawk campaign up to 1979, Iuz and St. Cuthbert in T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, etc. This per se wasn't any kind of later corruption.
Comparing Ed's Elminster novels and Silverfall with the Avatar novels on one hand and non-god-based RSEs (starting with the Crusade) on the other, we see starkly different ways of handling these matters. Ed's use of divinity is quite unlike the soap-operatic Avatar gods-as-avatars. The Chosen's divine investment conspicuously doesn't lead to anything like the broad, glib, sensational political upheavals of the RSEs (a pattern that was set, with the Tuigan trilogy, before the Chosen were disclosed in 1993).
Gary blew up the Oerth in his books after the Blumes kicked him out of TSR and stopped publishing his world his way; it wouldn't have happened otherwise, and that kind of thing doesn't happen in every fantasy setting with at-all-active deities.
So I think the conflicts of interest between an RPG setting and a novel one are real, but that needs to be distinguished from the effects of the ongoing timeline and of other specific, non-inevitable decisions that were made. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 13:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Am I wrong in my impression that the frequency of gods/Chosen/RSE presentations in the novels and gaming products has gone down? Both in real terms and as a percentage of published material?
I have the same perception, though that percentage was never large. (It seems bigger because of TSR's and Wizards' promotion of 'event novels' which often crossed over with game products, and then the online Chinese whispers.) So other than it being an obviously sensible laying-fallow, why did they pull back?
It does contrast with their signing up Ed for five (?) years' more Elminster, which so strikingly contradicted the craven PCs-are-the-stars-now promo copy of 2008, although the protagonizing of Ed's narrator/mentors is a clearly different phenomenon from the RSEs.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm not saying they aren't still good writers, just that some of them may not be as good at finding ways to keep the challenges from growing ridiculously huge and inviting RSE's into the equation. Not every writer can handle that kind of problem well.
It's a whirlpool that starts with seeing stories as basically confrontations between lone heroes and their foes, like wordy versions of messageboard X-vs-Y threads, rather than the picaresque-encounters-within-long-burning-many-stranded-intrigues native to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I mean, no one seriously looked at the Realms and said, "The best thing to do for this setting is to kill off its goddess of magic and mahe it a post-magical apocalypse world."
No one asked 'What's best for the Realms on its own terms?' at all. Realms-2008 was predicated, best as I can tell, on how to use it as a two-book D&D mini-setting, and as a wide-open-with-minimal-research novel world.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
For instance, I could write an entire series of novels based off one chapter in the Old Grey Box set, but only those fans who have read, loved, and idolize the old Box set will understand and appreciate what I'm attempting. Those who haven't will cast it aside as idiosyncratic and limited in vision.
Could you please elaborate on this, Erik? I can't see why that would be so. |
Edited by - Faraer on 30 Jan 2011 13:51:09 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 15:58:48
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With the advent of so many edition changes over the years, RSEs are easy ways of incorporating the base-line mechanics of the new edition into the setting.
This is espically true when the mechanics differ greatly from previous editions. For example, how else would you explain the distinction of Eladirn and elves on Faerun since both are playable races in 4E?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 16:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
With the advent of so many edition changes over the years, RSEs are easy ways of incorporating the base-line mechanics of the new edition into the setting.
This is espically true when the mechanics differ greatly from previous editions. For example, how else would you explain the distinction of Eladirn and elves on Faerun since both are playable races in 4E?
An RSE can be used in such a manner... But we had RSEs that were unrelated to edition changeovers, and one edition changeover that used an RSE to intro one new element, but not to explain any other changes. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jan 2011 16:46:32 |
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Why so many Realms Shattering Events?
