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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 16:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
It does contrast with their signing up Ed for five (?) years' more Elminster, which so strikingly contradicted the craven PCs-are-the-stars-now promo copy of 2008, although the protagonizing of Ed's narrator/mentors is a clearly different phenomenon from the RSEs.
I had an issue with them complaining that there weren't any areas of the Realms that hadn't been the locale for some fiction (as if each location only has one story to tell!), and then immediately picking one place and setting an entire series of books there. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 16:56:48
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Eladrin and elves aren't distinguished in the realms; its a purely mechanical difference. The elves who's cultures fit more into the "high elf" civilized intellectual magic achitype are mechanically eladrin, but are still identified by whatever type of elf they were before. The ones that fell into the "wood elf" close to nature archer/ranger architype are mechanically elves, but again haven't changed fluff wise. It was simply done to contain the multiple subraces of elves that were getting out of hand.
As far as racial explainations go, the big one was dragonborn and how to incorperate them. Personally I think they did a good job, but this may be because I didn't care for the empires that the dragonborn homeland landed on top of. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 17:39:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
With the advent of so many edition changes over the years, RSEs are easy ways of incorporating the base-line mechanics of the new edition into the setting.
I don't think they're easy anything. On the 'It's all Ed's idea!' front, covering a shift of rulesets was partly what the Godswar concept was proposed for (in a home campaign, of course, not a published setting), and it's a good example of my point about cumulative effect: one such upheaval in a campaign is one thing, multiple ones tend to unravel the hard work of verisimilitude: 'Don't take this world seriously, it's just a pasteboard mask for the latest rules.'
Wooly, I think there was some uncomfortable blurring of professed personal views and company stances around that time, and some of us tried to hold what was basically sloganeering to stricter standards of sense than it was meant to have. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 17:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Wooly, I think there was some uncomfortable blurring of professed personal views and company stances around that time, and some of us tried to hold what was basically sloganeering to stricter standards of sense than it was meant to have.
It still doesn't say anything good about them. If one group couldn't keep their words and their deeds matched up, how can we expect them to keep straight any kind of continuity in the setting, especially one shared among many designers and writers?
My biggest complaint with the RSEs wasn't the number of them... It was the frequency of them, and the fact that some of them seemed purely sales-driven. The Silence of Lolth, in my opinion, neither told a good tale nor added anything of value to the setting. The return of Shade and the reclaiming of Myth Drannor did add to the setting, but both of them had much potential that was never realized.
The Crusade, for example, could have kicked out the fey'ri but then still had to deal with cleaning up years of magic gone awry, the decay of centuries, and a large number of nastybads that were still there. If the elves reclaimed a small portion of the city, there could have been years of adventures for PCs to clean out other sections and/or stop some BBEG that decides to take recently secured sections of the city for himself.
Instead, we had subsequent and sometimes concurrent RSEs, many of which seemed to be forgotten as soon as they were done. It very much brings to mind superhero comics: rather than exploring the world or developing characters, instead there was a new threat to all of existence happening every other day. I can just picture the characters talking: "Was it last Tuesday that we saved the world from being destroyed by Galactron?" "No, that was Wednesday. Tuesday we saved the world from that incursion of alternate universe radioactive hamsters from a planet near Mars."
That's how bad the flood of RSEs was getting: what's the Realms-wide threat this week? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jan 2011 17:51:40 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 18:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I had an issue with them complaining that there weren't any areas of the Realms that hadn't been the locale for some fiction (as if each location only has one story to tell!), and then immediately picking one place and setting an entire series of books there.
I was initially a part of this crowd, mainly because I felt that most of the Realms (as in Faerun) was sooo detailed there was little room for low-level PCs and published canon had more interesting things going on then what my PCs could do. Also, this opinion was heightened due to the illusion that there were high/epic NPCs all over the place.
I've now come to realise that this mindset was poor and that the only thing hindering me was myself. Canon only works well when it works with you. So the idea is to make it work with you as much as possible and change the things that don't. 4E helped me realize that Canon isn't the end-all-be-all of the Realms and not even important if you don't want it to.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Eladrin and elves aren't distinguished in the realms; its a purely mechanical difference. The elves who's cultures fit more into the "high elf" civilized intellectual magic achitype are mechanically eladrin, but are still identified by whatever type of elf they were before. The ones that fell into the "wood elf" close to nature archer/ranger architype are mechanically elves, but again haven't changed fluff wise. It was simply done to contain the multiple subraces of elves that were getting out of hand.
As far as racial explainations go, the big one was dragonborn and how to incorperate them. Personally I think they did a good job, but this may be because I didn't care for the empires that the dragonborn homeland landed on top of.
Agreed. I was talking from a mechanical sense as to the reasons why moon, star, and sun elves can now teleport 25 ft. when before they couldn't and how that would react in a novel with those races involved.
And I also agree that the Dragonborn's incorporation was done rather well, as I didn't care at all for Mulhorandi/Unther regions. But I also think they could've expanded on the Dragonborn and Dragonkin (3e) alredy present in the Realms. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 18:40:14
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As I understand it, 3e dragonborn were basicly a race of chosen servants of a god(bahamut, I believe). The shift to a proud warrior race that is something of a fish out of water in a new world that is very alien to them; i.e., non evil/tyrannical dragons, as well as actual gods, is more appealing to me. One of the things I like about them is they have several parallels to warcraft orcs, which were my favorite race when I still played WoW.
Personally the only type of vaguely humanoid dragonkin that I liked besides the 4e dragonborn are dracotaurs, and though I wouldn't mind them being expanded on as npcs(though I don't know of any specific instances of them in the realms), they wouldn't work as playable characters. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 18:54:55
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| The real issue with RSE's that I have is that they have essentially ruined the game world (as separate from the novel world). When the RSE's were few or somewhat contained (ie the discovery of Maztica, the Horde, or even the Avatar trilogy), they could be easily ignored in a campaign without much work and where following game supplements would still be very useful. What we have had recently with things like the Shade, the return to Myth Drannor, and especially the spellplague, is that the changes are so dramatic and affect every nook and cranny of the world to such and extent that it has made it impossible to game in unless you either a) accept all the changes, or b) game at some point in past Realms history (which is my solution). The RSE's then have a direct impact on game supplement sales, as the gamers stop buying the books because they know the info contained in them will be useless to their campaigns. So it appears that our esteemed writers' desire to sell more books (complete with Wotc blessing) has taken over the game world and turned it into a novel world only. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 19:13:09
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I disagree with the notion that such events, Metaplots and Red Skies Crossovers as they are known on tv tropes, render sourcebooks completely useless. Granted, if you're campaigning in an area that the metaplot specifically destroyed, it won't have any information that helps your campaign; but a realms shattering event isn't necessary for that to take effect as a normal suplament could contain information that while expanding on the area you're playing in invalidates your campaign somehow.
The simple answer is make it up based on the logical conclusion to the question "what if?". "What if the shade didn't return?" "What if Mystra didn't die?". Making it up has always been a perfectly valid way to run a home campaign, because more than anything roleplaying is about having a good time and telling a story that you and your players enjoy(rhyme not intended). If one were to run a campaign with a tribe of kobolds invading Silverymoon and mounting Alustrial's head on a pike and the pc's leading a rebellion against |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 19:15:29
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(sorry, browsing on a ps3 while the computer's in the shop and this thing has an annoying character limit)
Anyway. Leading the underground rebel force against the Silver Marches' new kobold overlords is a completely valid campaign. Is it at all condusive to the "canon" of the novels or the source books? No. Not at all. But why should that stop you? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 19:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
They are an ''foreign infection''. I agree with my player Maruluthu here. Why not have two universes, the comics have how many Earths?
DC tried that, to an extent. Then they tried to fix it in the 80s with the Crisis on Infinite Earths where the reduced it down to 1. I believe they brought the multiverse idea back recently. However, at least once they realized it was a detriment and not a bonus. Marvel has alternate universes, but they focus the vast majority of their attention on the core universe (as does DC). They also pump out a considerably larger volume of stories across their various titles so they can afford to indulge in ideas that a novel line really can't.
quote:
Personally I have no problems with ignoring ridiculous things in the Realms, but it seems for a lot of people their gaming experience is ruined by the novels.
How is this going to change if they are non canon? Some ideas are still going to migrate and some players are still going to want to incorporate what they read into their game world. It still ends up with some people ignoring them and some people embracing them.
quote:
Screw the novels, make them Abeir or a part of Shar's horrible alternate timeline dimension.
I'm sure the authors appreciate that vote of confidence.
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Then let people who have proven to keep the Realms consistent pick ideas from the novels into the gaming material as plots-hooks.
So, who decides who gets to be part of the inner circle? What if they decide to base what gets let in on sales of novels since that is the only set of hard numbers for approval that they have to go on? How is having less options a good idea?
quote:
The novel readers don't care anyway.
What do you base this on?
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The RSEs are like the yellow journalism, not believable, but they get you going.
They apparently also keep the FR afloat due to sales.
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
The real issue with RSE's that I have is that they have essentially ruined the game world (as separate from the novel world).
Really? Ruined it? You don't think that's a little dramatic?
quote:
When the RSE's were few or somewhat contained (ie the discovery of Maztica, the Horde, or even the Avatar trilogy), they could be easily ignored in a campaign without much work and where following game supplements would still be very useful. What we have had recently with things like the Shade, the return to Myth Drannor, and especially the spellplague, is that the changes are so dramatic and affect every nook and cranny of the world to such and extent that it has made it impossible to game in unless you either a) accept all the changes, or b) game at some point in past Realms history (which is my solution).
The return of Shade affected Thay? The return of Myth Drannor had some lasting impact on Waterdeep? I'm not buying it. Even the Spellplague didn't effect absolutely everything. Don't like Shade, don't buy books centered around Shade. That is no different than if you didn't like, let's say Calimshan. You wouldn't buy stuff related to that, so why is Shade or Myth Drannor any different? How would it be any different if they still had that happen in official material even without the novels? There's nothing to stop that from happening. As for the Spellplague, I am sure there is plenty of useful material in the FRCG that either doesn't mention the Spellplague at all or that could be adapted to not involve it. Or, do as your doing and simply play in the past. Or play in the present and forget the Spellplague (and the 4th Ed. rules if you don't like them). Yes, it can cause diminishing returns. However, any decision that changes something can have that effect as that change becomes more and more rooted into the fabric of the setting. There is nothing saying that without the novels they would somehow avoid making changes that people disagreed with.
quote:
The RSE's then have a direct impact on game supplement sales, as the gamers stop buying the books because they know the info contained in them will be useless to their campaigns.
That's going to happen no matter what. It is inevitable that they make a decision you don't like and it becomes canon. Along a long enough time line, these "bad decisions" will accumulate to the point that you have no interest in the material anymore. Some people will have a higher tolerance to change than others. But, they have to keep making new material. Either novels or game suppliments, they need new material. If it isn't moving the timeline, it's fiilling in the timeline of the past and present. That will change how you view things at some point. In addition to that, you eventually hit a saturation point where a majority of your customers say "I have enough material to last me a lifetime, I don't need another book about the Underdark/Cormyr/Waterdeep/etc" and your sales start to slide.
quote:
So it appears that our esteemed writers' desire to sell more books (complete with Wotc blessing) has taken over the game world and turned it into a novel world only.
Oh it's writer's fault now? They sat around and decided they needed to sell more books and asked for approval from WotC instead of WotC giving them the facts of business life that say you make money or you go out of business? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 20:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
one such upheaval in a campaign is one thing, multiple ones tend to unravel the hard work of verisimilitude: 'Don't take this world seriously, it's just a pasteboard mask for the latest rules.'
I think this is the best line so far on the topic. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 21:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
They also pump out a considerably larger volume of stories across their various titles so they can afford to indulge in ideas that a novel line really can't.
The number of RSEs in the FR novel universe could increase as well, I'd have no problem with that, just don't break the game world.
quote:
How is this going to change if they are non canon? Some ideas are still going to migrate and some players are still going to want to incorporate what they read into their game world. It still ends up with some people ignoring them and some people embracing them.
It changes the players's perception of the world, from the near-apocalyptic to the one they originally had in 1e, full of potential threats deal with, there's more mystery in that.
quote:
So, who decides who gets to be part of the inner circle? What if they decide to base what gets let in on sales of novels since that is the only set of hard numbers for approval that they have to go on? How is having less options a good idea?
I don't know, Ed and whoever he thinks knows enough about the setting and its themes (GK? ...). No, the novels sales are important for the novel universe, the criteria for the games is different, like not blowing a cool place up and leaving less options. I did not say nothing about having less options, all RSE plots could be adapted, toned down, expanded ...
quote:
What do you base this on?
The majority of people who read Drizzt novels. |
Edited by - Quale on 30 Jan 2011 21:22:40 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 21:53:57
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| Quale, I have to disagree. Some of the readers of Drizzt might feel that way, but I doubt it's the majority. I for one, do not. And to be honest, although there were a few things from the novels I did not like (mostly in Ghost King), I still feel that they belong firmly in the game-setting. The novel characters ARE canon NPC's of the Realms, whether we as players like them or not. They are part of what brings so much life to the setting. Who hasn't played and hoped their PC's would run into Elmisnter or Storm or Khelben or Drizzt? These are famous figures in the setting, and might even be the legendary figures that the PC's chose to emulate by taking up adventuring in the first place. they SHOULD be part of the in-game world, because they are largely what makes it function as a setting to begin with. Would Cormyr be half as interesting without Azoun or the War Wizards? Would we care about Evermeet without its Queen? Or Thay without Szass and the other zulkirs? What about Waterdeep's Lords? It's the PEOPLE who make the setting such a wonderful place to play in. You can't divorce the characters (and the events they helped shape) from the setting. It would just be an empty world then. |
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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 22:00:30
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| The perfect example of how to combine novels and the game world came very early on from Doug Niles. He wrote and published both the Moonshae Trilogy (which contained a "Moonshae Shaking Event) and also FR2 Moonshae. And yet, the game supplement essentially ignores all the events of the trilogy and simply sets the stage as it existed right before the novels take place. This then allows the players to potentially "play" the trilogy out instead of just read about it, which IMHO is by far the best way to incorporate novels into the world. The novels provide the world with life, but do not significantly alter the world for the DM and the game. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 23:20:49
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| I agree with Apex. Alystra, indeed the iconic npcs are crucial to for the popularity of the world. I'm not saying that at all. Only if the novels are keeping the game alive I doubt the majority of the novel customers care e.g. that Obould's death is mentioned in a gaming product or that he still remains as a threat to the pcs. Cause if they cared about the game canon the sales of the sourcebooks be nearly as great as the sales of novels. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 00:22:47
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Radioactive Hamster from near Mars.
Honestly who comes up with these things. LOL |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 01:16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I agree with Apex. Alystra, indeed the iconic npcs are crucial to for the popularity of the world. I'm not saying that at all. Only if the novels are keeping the game alive I doubt the majority of the novel customers care e.g. that Obould's death is mentioned in a gaming product or that he still remains as a threat to the pcs. Cause if they cared about the game canon the sales of the sourcebooks be nearly as great as the sales of novels.
Yeah, except for the minor facts that novels are cheaper than sourcebooks, more portable, and appeal to gamers and non-gamers alike. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 01:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Radioactive Hamster from near Mars.
Honestly who comes up with these things. LOL
Not I!
I'll leave the source unnamed, and let someone else reveal it. I picked that to see if anyone would recognize it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 03:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The number of RSEs in the FR novel universe could increase as well, I'd have no problem with that, just don't break the game world.
I still don't see how any of them have broken anything. I hear people saying that they have, but no one is forcing anyone to use that material. If I had a problem with the Spellplague, I wouldn't buy anything to do with it (and if I gamed I wouldn't use anything to do with it). Simple as that.
quote:
It changes the players's perception of the world, from the near-apocalyptic to the one they originally had in 1e, full of potential threats deal with, there's more mystery in that.
So you want to go back to 1e? Is anything stopping you?
quote:
I don't know, Ed and whoever he thinks knows enough about the setting and its themes (GK? ...).
And if he picks people you don't approve of and they take the setting in a fairly similar direction? Or some copletely different direction that you still don't approve of?
quote:
No, the novels sales are important for the novel universe, the criteria for the games is different, like not blowing a cool place up and leaving less options.
You don't get what I am saying. I am saying, in your hypothetical where only some material gets converted, there is nothing to say the criteria for what gets converted won't involve figuring out what is popular. To figure that out, the only hard data they have is sales figures. So, it is well within the realm of possibility that only popular novels get their material absorbed into canon, and we know the RSE centric novels are popular. So, it is possible (I believe likely) that the only novels that will be converted are the very ones you obviously hate. That will make your situation worse, not better.
As for blowing some place up, isn't the Realms history full of empires falling and cities being abandoned or destroyed? Why is that something that only magically happens in the past? There is absolutely no reason to believe that won't continue to happen in the present. It is unrealistic in the extreme to believe that the villains never win and that calamity is always avoided.
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I did not say nothing about having less options, all RSE plots could be adapted, toned down, expanded ...
Then you get back to the game of what's in and what's out. Take the return of Shade. You kind of have to major element (Shade returning) for it to be meaningful. Well, right there you upset some people. Then time goes on and the novels involving the Shade take over of Sembia become popular and that event becomes canon. Now you just upset some more people. The spiral will grow and grow. It can't be avoided, unless you tell people to make up their own mind and use what they want (like they are free to do right now). You can't avoid making a decision that will upset someone, so you may as well try to keep the novels coherent and keep telling the obvious (they are free to use what they like and discard the rest).
quote:
The majority of people who read Drizzt novels.
That's not an answer, nor is there any way for you to know what the majority of them think about any topic so I can only assume you are making a very broad assumption based on your preconceptions of the average Drizzt fan, which I assume to be quite negative based on you thinking just saying "the majority of people who read Drizzt novels" is a self explanatory answer.
Edit to add: tl;dr-we have no idea what would happen under hypothetical scenarios. It is just as likely, if not more so, that the situation will still not be to the liking of those who think the novels being canon is a bad idea. As it stands, people (RPG players, novel readers, whoever) are free to pick and choose what they like so I see no real need to change. Better the devil you know, then the one you don't. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 31 Jan 2011 05:43:40 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 12:55:05
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On another level, hollow, grandiloquent fantasy pseudo-epics in general come from aping superficial aspects of The Lord of the Rings (which resolved a mythological tension that was a lifetime's work in working out).
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I agree with Apex. Alystra, indeed the iconic npcs are crucial to for the popularity of the world.
Well, the characters are. Wisdom of presenting a selection as 'icons' is something else.quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As for blowing some place up, isn't the Realms history full of empires falling and cities being abandoned or destroyed? Why is that something that only magically happens in the past? There is absolutely no reason to believe that won't continue to happen in the present.
Any skim of the Grand History of the Realms shows frequency of blow-ups jumping out of recognition in the novel era, let alone considering their nature. |
Edited by - Faraer on 31 Jan 2011 13:52:21 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 15:24:01
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That is a fairly common problem in fictional settings, especially fantasy, where the setting has a long backstory but a relatively short period of time during which the main story takes place. It was something I brought up on TV tropes as "Six A.M. on the cosmic alarm clock"; you'd have world threatening events in the past, sometimes several, but usually with a few hundred if not thousands of years between. And then when the story starts, in this case a little before the time of troubles, ancient evils start waking up, sealed threats are unsealed, and various other disasters happen wih remarkable freqency.
A prime example would be warcraft, where you have a few major things happening in the backstory, but in the span of the games you have two demonic invasions, great old ones waking up, a zombie apocalypse, and dragons trying to destroy time itself, all in the span of ten years. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 16:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I agree with Apex. Alystra, indeed the iconic npcs are crucial to for the popularity of the world. I'm not saying that at all. Only if the novels are keeping the game alive I doubt the majority of the novel customers care e.g. that Obould's death is mentioned in a gaming product or that he still remains as a threat to the pcs. Cause if they cared about the game canon the sales of the sourcebooks be nearly as great as the sales of novels.
Yeah, except for the minor facts that novels are cheaper than sourcebooks, more portable, and appeal to gamers and non-gamers alike.
Right, but having all the novels incorporated into the gaming world (through supplements and what not) isn't necessarily required for the novels to be successful or meaningful. The example I gave of Moonshae (and the Moonshae trilogy) exemplifies this well. Supplements can provide the background info without having to incorporate the "canon" of the novels. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 16:52:55
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| Nor does that guarantee that the supplements would be more popular either, if based on the novels. What works for one group's campaign might not work for others. It's a matter of what the DMs and PALAYERS want- which seems to just be more consistency in the world, as opposed to which lore gets used. I think Apex had the right idea in how to combine the two. It's just that in recent years (let's face it, basically ever since they took over) WotC has lost sight of that crucial sense of continuity. Other venues are occasionally subject to the same problem, but seem to do more to TRY to fix it in-world. (Marvel, DC come to mind here...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 17:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Right, but having all the novels incorporated into the gaming world (through supplements and what not) isn't necessarily required for the novels to be successful or meaningful.
The problem is neither you nor I (nor anyone) knows if altering the current set up will help or hinder sales. We can guess with relative certainty that a number of people read the books but do not play the RPG. I think that is a safe assumption. We do not know how many people we are talking about though. We also do not know how many people do both, or how many people only play the RPG and care nothing for the novels. We do not know if some players will stop reading the books if they are not canon, thus decreasing sales. We do not know if that will somehow increase sales elsewhere to compensate. It's a gamble that as far as we know is not built on any rational premise or hard numbers.
I have seen WotC make this mistake at least once before and I would prefer to not see it again. This is more or less what helped kill the D&D miniatures line. WotC stated, depending on who you asked, time of day, direction of the wind, etc, that between 75% and 90% of the miniatures sales were for RPG purposes. They had no realistic way of knowing this information. There were never any serious surveys, and if there were they were kept very close and were not nationwide. I know some of the folks who went on to try to keep the game alive through a fan effort, who were notable organizers of tournaments before that, who were never asked or contacted in any way and neither were the stores where they ran events (which would've been moving a noticeable amount of product). Beyond that, the apparent assumption was that there was no noticeable crossover in sales between RPG and Skirmish. I could've told them this was absolutely untrue. Asking any 20 players at GenCon could've told them the same thing. Somehow, they either never considered or didn't give enough consideration to the idea that their distribution format was not one that RPG players would embrace on it's own. Having a miniatures game helped sell the collectible format because people who play those games accept that as a format. Then they began a series of mistakes that finally caused them to stop supporting the skirmish game. Yet, they did not change the distribution format. They believed RPG players would continue to buy random boosters. Now, hopefully it is apparent that they do not know how to do some things and that they do not know how to interpret some numbers. They misunderstood their market and assumed one set of customers could carry them so they chose to favor that one set. I do not trust them to change a policy that to all outside viewers is apparently working (bringing in sales) to satisfy the desires of a relative handful. Just consider the number of acts by WotC that you consider mistakes. I am guessing it is a relatively large number. And now you want them to change the current set up to something that you want, despite all appearances that at least parts of the current are working (bringing in money). Do you honestly expect it to be done well?
Edit to add: Having said that, I don't see what the problem would be with releasing adventures that start at the onset of the events of a RSE and allow your players to play through it with the understanding that this is how it happened in "your" Realms. Obviously you might run into problems down the road when things you don't like keep accumulating, but for a while it could work and possibly keep more people staisfied. Just view the novel/RPG material Realms as Forgottern Realms Prime and your home Realms as an alternate universe where some things are the same and some things could be wildly different. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 31 Jan 2011 20:00:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 01:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I agree with Apex. Alystra, indeed the iconic npcs are crucial to for the popularity of the world. I'm not saying that at all. Only if the novels are keeping the game alive I doubt the majority of the novel customers care e.g. that Obould's death is mentioned in a gaming product or that he still remains as a threat to the pcs. Cause if they cared about the game canon the sales of the sourcebooks be nearly as great as the sales of novels.
Yeah, except for the minor facts that novels are cheaper than sourcebooks, more portable, and appeal to gamers and non-gamers alike.
Right, but having all the novels incorporated into the gaming world (through supplements and what not) isn't necessarily required for the novels to be successful or meaningful. The example I gave of Moonshae (and the Moonshae trilogy) exemplifies this well. Supplements can provide the background info without having to incorporate the "canon" of the novels.
To me, novels are the best way to advance the setting's timeline. If novels and the setting are independent of each other, I'm not going to feel as compelled to pay attention to either side of the setting.
What drew me into the Realms was that things were happening. If we disconnect novels and game material, then the feeling that things are happening goes away -- and with it, a portion of the fanbase. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 07:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, novels are the best way to advance the setting's timeline. If novels and the setting are independent of each other, I'm not going to feel as compelled to pay attention to either side of the setting.
What drew me into the Realms was that things were happening. If we disconnect novels and game material, then the feeling that things are happening goes away -- and with it, a portion of the fanbase.
I agree. Especially when the novels a firmly grounded in chronology so your PCs can hear about the events in them as they pursue their own adventures. It adds to the versimilitude mentioned earlier.
I think the real problem was how the novels are handled.
I'm not even sure the problem is purely the gods. maybe it's just Troy Denning. I liked Dragonwall but after that his work seemed dedicated to ripping the Realms to shreds. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 17:22:34
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Just a friendly reminder: Candlekeep plays host to authors and game designers. We like having them here and we don't like driving them away from this website.
I realize you (Paul) have a beef with Denning, but it would be nice if we could move away from spreading memes like "Troy Denning: Killing the Realms Since After Dragonwall" to something a little more substantive and thoughtful.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If we disconnect novels and game material, then the feeling that things are happening goes away -- and with it, a portion of the fanbase.
Is that likely, though? Eberron seems to do quite well with novels that are not Canon, but that also move things along. Not trying to say you're wrong here, Wooly, I'm just curious if you'd be willing to speculate on how the Realms would have grown if there'd been a policy in place that novels aren't Canon when the Realms first got under way as a game setting.
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Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 01 Feb 2011 18:11:37 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 17:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Just a friendly reminder: Candlekeep plays host to authors and game designers. We like having them here and we don't like driving them away from this website.
I realize you (Paul) have a beef with Denning, but it would be nice if we could move away from spreading memes like "Troy Denning: Killing the Realms Since After Dragonwall" to something a little more substantive and thoughtful. I.e. leave the nerdrage to the WotC forums.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If we disconnect novels and game material, then the feeling that things are happening goes away -- and with it, a portion of the fanbase.
Is that likely, though? Eberron seems to do quite well with novels that are not Canon, but that also move things along. Not trying to say you're wrong here, Wooly, I'm just curious if you'd be willing to speculate on how the Realms would have grown if there'd been a policy in place that novels aren't Canon when the Realms first got under way as a game setting.
The Realms would have done fine, as the early supplements (that didn't take novels into account) have demonstrated. And if it is just fleshed out NPC's that you want, that could be accomplished through a "Realms of Valor" type book that doesn't really impact the setting. What the advancement of the timeline does most is limit DM's by having the things that took place in novels assumed as part of the world (through supplements) and thus make the removal of those events much more difficult (I still implore everyone to loof at FR2 vs the Moonshae Trilogy as an example of how this can be accomplished). |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 17:57:53
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One of the things I like to remember is that it's rarely a single author's decision to make major changes to the Realms.
Like, I can't blame Troy Denning for the Time of Troubles series any more than I can blame Lisa Smedman for the culling of the dark elf gods in the Lady Penitent. These things were internal committee decisions from the design team, and the authors in question were provided outlines to follow with some "must have" events.
As awful as the death of Eilistraee was, the series was actually quite good. I can't say that I liked the ToT novels or even Crucible, but I do know that Denning has written some other things I've liked.
So IMO it's rarely the author. I blame the respective design teams.
If the Realms novels had never been canon, I imagine that the Realms would be faring about as well as Dark Sun (although a good portion of the problems also stem from LFR's tie to the Realms). Fewer RSEs would've been "needed" and there wouldn't have been the polarizing division in the fanbase that 4E Realms caused. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Why so many Realms Shattering Events?
