| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 16:45:17
|
RW, I think you've missed my point. when discussing the idea of toppling this or that opressive tyranical regime, most people tend to think first of war. Why should that be the only solution? most wars start rather quietly, truth be told. someone starts the ball rolling in a certain direction politically or economically, and things eventually escalate until someone presses the little red button. But that does not have to be the case. Revolutions can be won peacefully, as the Civil Rights movement in our own world and time show. There is value in treading softly and carrying a big stick, or even no stick at all, if one is good at political machinations or social reform. but apparently, no one has ever tried anything of hte sort with most of the Realms' resident tyrants and despots. Thay, Calimshan, Sembia- all it would really take is the right person in the right palce and time, and anything could happen. Social reform and revolutions do not have to be bloodbaths or devastating mayhem. Perhaps Thay's slave population could stage a mass sit-down and simply refuse to work until freed and given basic rights. I can picture them all just refusing to do anything at all, forcing the Red Wizards to either resort to slaughtering a significant portion of their own workforce, or finding a solution that does not involve loosing their main source of labor. No invasion or major spell-battle need ensue, although I'm sure the Thayan masters would probably discover very quickly that killing their slaves would simply lead to a more open and violent revolt. but not even the Thayans themselves have ever tried to do anything about their predicament! I wonder why? No matter how powerful the spellcaster, he can still die just as easily as the next man. Unless he's undead, in which case I'd just whip out a huge can of priestly whup-a$$ in the form of divine turning and holy water. Shake well and spray liberally.
I guess the point of that particular rant was that all of the good and well-meaning powers that be in the Realms seem to only concern themselves with their own little piece of dirt, and ignore all the greater evils around them. I'm thinking it might be time for a massive Realms-wide Crusade against tyranny and evil. Bane might want to take note- the bigger the tyrant, the greater the fall.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
 |
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 17:10:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's something I always found rather offputting about the fact you have places like Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Silver Marches; all fairly european based settings and while containing a fair amount of moral ambiguity, you have a place like Calimshan, very much arab, and Thay, rather eastern/middle eastern; one is a bastion of scum and villainy and the other is an out and out evil empire. I'm not the only one who found that to reek of unfortunate implications, am I?
You left out Luskan and Zhentil Keep, definitely evil Northern societies. And Sembia, which is very Calimshan like, IMO, aside from slavery. And on the other side of the coin, Tethyr is a pretty Southern culture and pretty positive.
I don't think of Thay as Middle Eastern, it fit rather in the long tradition of evil, sorcerous societies in fantasy literature. Such as Melnibone, Quarmall, Stygia, ect.
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 18:58:57
|
quote:
Erik wrote:
As the research becomes more extensive, more time is required to do it. Eventually, you reach a point where you simply aren't paying authors enough to do the level of research that certain die-hard fans call for.
I think some of us give it a shot though, for all that a lot of it winds up on the cutting room floor. 
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 19:23:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Erik wrote:
As the research becomes more extensive, more time is required to do it. Eventually, you reach a point where you simply aren't paying authors enough to do the level of research that certain die-hard fans call for.
I think some of us give it a shot though, for all that a lot of it winds up on the cutting room floor.
And this is exactly why I love the idea of a more static time line, as it would only require authors to reference a limited pool of game supplements in order to achieve the kind of accuracy and continuity that brings a world to life. Obviously, there never was a battle for a static time line, as advancement began day one, but the RSE's have gotten out of control in the last decade or so. I believe the Avatar Trilogy was the only real RSE of 2nd edition, while in 3rd through the spellplague there have been several, which has created the issue, as it is not the RSE's in and of themselves that cause problems, but their frequency and scale that make a setting unwieldy and less life-like. |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 19:28:23
|
What are the broadly successful gaming worlds (implemented across multiple platforms like gaming supplements, novels, and video games) that have static timelines?
I'm asking because I can't think of any: the Realms, Battletech, Warhammer 40K, Shadowrun, World of Darkness. They've all dealt with "RSEs" in their own way, haven't they?
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 19:32:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Not all opinions are equally valid or even accurate.
I believe this is part of the fundamental level of the disagreement. Opinions are neither accurate nor inaccurate. Facts are one or the other. Opinions are... well, opinions. If I say "In my opinion the sky is red" (on a crystal clear day at noon), then I am wrong (unless I am standing on Mars or something). Not because my opinion is wrong. I am wrong because the color of the sky is not up for debate, it is an observable fact. My trying to phrase it as an opinion does not change the reality that it is a verifiably false statement and thus not a matter of opinion. Trying to state it as an opinion does not suddenly make it possible for me to be correct. The reverse is also true. Stating opinion as fact does not make it fact (much to the dislike of everyone from critics to modern "reporters" who wish reality would change to suit their "facts" instead of the other way around). Yes, some parts of the mechanical construction of various forms of media can factually be said to be one thing or another. However, criticism encompasses more than facts. Once it does, it becomes opinion which can neither be right nor wrong. If you can varifiably say someone's opinion is wrong, then they are attempting to use false facts disguised as an opinion (so as to be able to say they can't be wrong) and not actually expressing an opinion.
Beyond that all you have is commonly held opinions. Those are also not facts. A house being solidly built isn't a matter of opinion. It either stands (in a given set of circumstances) or it doesn't. We know what will stand (given a set of facts) and what won't. In critical terms, what works and what doesn't was decided upon at some point in a manner involving subjective, man made rules involving an arbitrary set of criteria that were subjectively given a level of importance that had nothing to do with objective reality. A house standing or falling has everything to do with verifiable scientific principles. One is based in opinion, one is based in fact. The two are not the same.
quote:
In fine cuisine, for example, a sophisticated palate is better prepared to talk about the nuances of a four-star dish than an unsophisticated palate. Their experience makes their opinion better, and more important, even in matters of preference and not just the quality of the prepared dish.
Sure they are better prepared to discuss certain elements of a dish. However, food serves two purposes (usually). The feed people and to taste good. The former is a foregone factual conclusion (it either does or does not feed people), the latter is entirely grounded in personal taste. Their opinion is only more important to anyone who places any faith in their opinion. They can factually state far more about a dish than I could based on taste alone (ingrediants, quantities, cooking method, etc) but I will decide whether or not it tastes any good. They obviously have a more informed opinion and are better able to express their opinion, I have never doubted that, but their opinion doesn't change whether or not I think it tastes any good meaning their opinion is worthless to me. The most well informed and well expressed opinion of the sky being red, does not make the sky red. If I eat a dish identical to a dish eaten by someone with a more sophisticated palette and I do not believe it tastes good while they believe that it does, neither of us is wrong. If by my standards it does not taste good, then no amount of talk will change that. If by their standards it does taste good, no amount of me saying it does not taste good will change their opinion.
quote:
You would not have a country hick make judgments about whether or not to feature Edwardian-style furniture in an Ethan Allen furniture store.
I would hope you would ask someone who understands sales trends which usually involves charts and graphs of verifiable data coupled with some level of understanding of historic trends. You don't ask a critic any more than you ask a country hick unless they are basing their answer on the aforementioned criteria.
quote:
Similarly, you don't go to a teenage girl who has only read Twilight and ask her for an opinion about which vampire novels are the best. By way of experience (speaking of the average teen girl), she has not read enough to have a sophisticated palate, nor is she professionally trained in the critical analysis of literature.
Her answer will be Twilight, because to her it is the best (unless she disliked it, in which case it's the worst). She is not factually wrong. I would disagree with her, but I can't point to a set of facts and conclusively state that she is wrong. I can elaborate on my opinion of the shortcomings of the book (though I won't because I won't read it). If there are actual mechanical flaws, I can point them out. Beyond that, I can't conclusively say to her "you're wrong" if I am being remotely honest with myself. I can construct an argument, but it will be based on my opinions and not on a set of facts.
quote:
So honestly, even in matters of taste, not all opinions are equally valid, true, or even desirable. And it's even more true when speaking of professional opinions.
The words "true" and "fact" should never be used to describe an opinion. There are facts, and there are opinions. One is verifiably right or wrong, one is in the eye of the beholder. This is like trying to tell me what beauty is. Yes, there are some generally agreed upon guidelines. Those can vary by culture though, so those are no good when it comes to "truth" and "fact". There are studies that show that most men prefer certain facial proportions, or certain body proportions. That does not mean that every man finds those things beautiful. Are they somehow wrong? No, they aren't. Some people only care about another person's face, others care about their body, hair color, eye color, etc. None of them are wrong, no matter what anyone else tries to tell them and no matter how many (arguably worthless if this is what they got out of them) degrees said person has on their wall. Informed opinion may be more informed, but the other half of that pair of words prevents it from ever being fact. Opinions may be based on facts (and I hope they are), but being based on facts does not automatically make something else a fact.
What an opinion is worth is....a matter of opinion. If I don't value someone's opinion, then to me it is worthless and their number of degrees (or lack thereof) will not sway me one way or the other. If someone else does value it, then to them it has value. The value of opinion is entirely subjective and will change from one person to another and no amount of trying to tell me that opinion is fact will change that. Everyone is free to choose who's opinion they will (or won't) place on a pedestal. I'm not trying to disuade anyone from liistening to critics or from putting faith in their critiques. That's your choice. I do believe it is utterly futile to try to tell people that someone else's opinion is more valid than their own.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
RW, I think you've missed my point. when discussing the idea of toppling this or that opressive tyranical regime, most people tend to think first of war. Why should that be the only solution? most wars start rather quietly, truth be told. someone starts the ball rolling in a certain direction politically or economically, and things eventually escalate until someone presses the little red button. But that does not have to be the case. Revolutions can be won peacefully, as the Civil Rights movement in our own world and time show. There is value in treading softly and carrying a big stick, or even no stick at all, if one is good at political machinations or social reform. but apparently, no one has ever tried anything of hte sort with most of the Realms' resident tyrants and despots. Thay, Calimshan, Sembia- all it would really take is the right person in the right palce and time, and anything could happen. Social reform and revolutions do not have to be bloodbaths or devastating mayhem. Perhaps Thay's slave population could stage a mass sit-down and simply refuse to work until freed and given basic rights. I can picture them all just refusing to do anything at all, forcing the Red Wizards to either resort to slaughtering a significant portion of their own workforce, or finding a solution that does not involve loosing their main source of labor. No invasion or major spell-battle need ensue, although I'm sure the Thayan masters would probably discover very quickly that killing their slaves would simply lead to a more open and violent revolt. but not even the Thayans themselves have ever tried to do anything about their predicament! I wonder why? No matter how powerful the spellcaster, he can still die just as easily as the next man. Unless he's undead, in which case I'd just whip out a huge can of priestly whup-a$$ in the form of divine turning and holy water. Shake well and spray liberally.
I think you have been talking to me and not RW (who I assume to be Red Walker). Yes, I was assuming a full frontal assault. I was because I believe if the Chosen get involved then at some point the Zulkirs and their high level lackeys (and whoever heads the Church of Kossuth and maybe the high level clergy of any other faiths in Thay) will directly confront them in some kind of epic spell battle. Because of that, I believe a surpsise, all out assault is their best chance of success. Otherwise the Thayans will pool their efforts in which case they may have numerical superiority. Having said that, the indirect approach may work to some degree. I do not believe it could topple them. If the slaves openly revolt, they will kill some of them. They will be sure to do so in some incredibly painful manner in public. I could see them going so far as to try to capture or destroy the souls of a few prisoners to demonstrate what will happen to the rest. This will drive home the idea that the slaves won't know freedom even in death, which in my opinion would make most of them a lot less likely to revolt. I think the other potential problem is that with that many high level wizards, some of them will figure out the root of their problems and focus their own foreign efforts on the Harpers and their allies. In other words, I think retaliation is a serious possibility and one of the things that stays their hand. Why risk a potentially catastrophic backlash when you are relatively certain at some point their own machinations and mistrust will destroy their entire system? Yes, it sucks for everyone there now, but which serves the greater good?
Having said all that, there's no reason why the topic shouldn't come up from time to time in the novels and I for one would like to see it debated amongst the powers of good. On the flipside, a similar debate ("Why don't we crush the Chosen, the Harpers, Cormyr, etc?") amongst the powers of evil would be interesting as well. I think both sides will fall into squabbling and name calling before they accomplish anything (which will likely be entertaining to witness), but who knows. It seems that for now both sides are trying to play the long game and letting overly ambitious fools (or a certain someone with an endless supply of clone bodies) test the defenses of their enemies for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
And this is exactly why I love the idea of a more static time line, as it would only require authors to reference a limited pool of game supplements in order to achieve the kind of accuracy and continuity that brings a world to life.
Under a static timeline authors will have to do no reasearch at all. There will be no books. Books require a story, which for them to sell will generally require something to happen. Time will move forward unless the whole novel is a conversation between two outside observers who are impotent in their ability to change anything and are stuck in some kind of Time Stop like spell that means time in fact is not moving. Dull stuff. Otherwise, people will move from one place to another, ideas will be exchanged, it is likely lives will be endangered and possibly lost, and time will move forward. That is not static.
|
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 27 Jan 2011 19:34:51 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 19:50:59
|
Tyrant, my last post was not directed to mean that I intended a full assault. I never stated that anywhere, but for some reason, whenever the thought of any Chosen or other major force of good gets involved in a region, everyone automatically assumes that there will be a war involved. This may be true in some cases, but that is not generally how such folk operate, as they tend to work behind the scenes in most places. I for one never go in asuming that a war is the best or most likely successful solution to such conflicts, as I prefer to tak a more subtle and long-term approach to problems. I'm pretty sure Elminster and Khelben would do the same. These are canny old birds, and they would want to cause as little collateral damage as possible- unlike the zulkirs, who probably don't care beyond the amount of financial and material loss they might sustain. And unfortunately, I don't think that staying out of it serves ANYONE. Certainly not "the greater good". Try telling that to the masses under the zulkirs' thumbs, and you would likely be spat upon in reply. And there comes a point when enough is enough, and people become desperate enough to risk anything to improve their lives to some semblance of human dignity (or any other race's ideas of dignity). If nothing else, I would think that a massive PR campaign by the churches of Torm Helm and Ilmater is in order. Change people's views, and you've changed the world....
Edit: Looked back, and it seems I'd gotten two long posts confused. Sorry, Tyrant, that last one WAS directed to you, apparently. I hate it when a post gets so long you can't find the end of it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 27 Jan 2011 20:34:48 |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 20:17:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
What are the broadly successful gaming worlds (implemented across multiple platforms like gaming supplements, novels, and video games) that have static timelines?
I'm asking because I can't think of any: the Realms, Battletech, Warhammer 40K, Shadowrun, World of Darkness. They've all dealt with "RSEs" in their own way, haven't they?
That is an interesting question. Kenzerco's Kalamar is static, but it's certainly not a multi-media gaming world. I'm not sure all of those you list dealt with RSEs, certainly not the way the occur in the Realms. I cannot think of anything that World of Darkness did that was comparable to the Spellplague, for example.
Indeed, that might be instructive to compare. When they created a new storytelling system, they completely ended the previous world, but giving gamemasters multiple choices for which 'version' of the end of the world they wanted to run. Then they started a whole new setting.
I'm not deep enough into White Wolf's fandom to know how thier fans reacted compared to Realms fans. I didn't get into the new games, but I didn't feel betrayed as far as the old campaign was concerned.
Of course, maybe this isn't a great example, since WoD was always apocalytic, so ending the world was the natural conclusion.
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 20:26:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
What are the broadly successful gaming worlds (implemented across multiple platforms like gaming supplements, novels, and video games) that have static timelines?
I'm asking because I can't think of any: the Realms, Battletech, Warhammer 40K, Shadowrun, World of Darkness. They've all dealt with "RSEs" in their own way, haven't they?
I already mentioned one: Call of Cthulhu. I am not familiar with Battletech novels enough to know everything, but I don't think they had anything like the spellplague (you cannot really count wars since that is essentially what the whole setting is about). I would also argue that while Shadowrun recently had an RSE (with its' conversion to 4th edition), the reasoning behind this was to make an aspect of the game that had been virtually unplayable (ie deckers) work in the game (a problem the Realms definitely did not have). |
|
|
|
Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 21:03:17
|
| GMWestermeyer, please indicate the criterion by which the quality of a roleplaying game supplement can be quantified. |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 21:21:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
it's clear you've been gaming a long time but don't like change.
I like changes that I like.  For example, despite growing up with Star Wars I am a big fan of the Prequel movies.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
you would probably be more guarded about your derision out of professional courtesy).
Perhaps. I've probabaly come across as a Realms' hater, but that's a bit of a kneeejerk to the excessive Realms love that I find in here. The Realms wouldn't be as successful as it obviously is if there was not a lot of good in the setting, not just in the original grey boxed set but in many products right up until today. But this thread is about the Realms' problems, not its virtues.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
For instance, I could write an entire series of novels based off one chapter in the Old Grey Box set, but only those fans who have read, loved, and idolize the old Box set will understand and appreciate what I'm attempting. Those who haven't will cast it aside as idiosyncratic and limited in vision.
Really? Lord of the Rings was based of the Silmarillion in that way, with even a more limited number of folks aware of yet. Yet those allusions and connections are part of its appeal.
Now, I don't expect LOTR quality from realms writers and designers, that would be an unrealistic standard. But the quality of the story will win you readers, regardless of the source.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(Also, am I allowed to bring in later sources or not? Do I get to pick and choose based on what I assess as quality? Also, if the original authors got to make stuff up, why can't I?)
Yes, you should use later products. If you set a novel in Waterdeep, you should have all the appropriate game books on it, plus the novels set there. If you visit the Yawning Portal, you should read any scenes set ther in previous novels.
Some of it is so bad its puzzling. I just finished The Alabaster Staff. Now, I found this to be an extremely well written novel, with good characterizations and a tight plot with no holes or deus ex machina in there. And the author had obviously done some research on Unther, including appropriate NPCs and bringing a previously rarely seen part of the realms to life. Exactly the sort of Realms novel I enjoy.
But for some reason that escapes me, h added a 'blue glow' to all mage spells that appears in no other AD&D sources, just shows up out of the blue yet his characters mention it as if it were afact of life. I find that lapse absolutely bizarre. Still, it was easily overlooked - that was a good read.
And, to be fair to the Realms, other settings are even worse at this. I love Thieves' World but the authors in those short story anthologies could never agree if the town's technology and culture was 1st or 14th century level. That shift could give a reader literary whiplash going through a volume from story to story!
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
To give a sense of how *I* approach writing in the setting--I try to find a balance between highlighting old lore and bringing in new ideas. I push back against changes I don't like by finding cool ways to explain/invert them. And above all, I try to stay true to the spirit of the setting, simply because I've grown up with it and it's a part of my vision.
Sounds like I'm going to really love your stuff, then. That's what I'm arguing for as the requirements for all realms authors.
I'm reading Blackstaff now, I'll read Realms of the Elves next.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know, it might be informative for the continuing discussion if you'd give us examples of changes you DO like. In the Realms, that is.
What's your gold standard for the setting?
Well, for novels I've already mentioned my favorites, Elfshadow and Wyvern's Spur. Ed's novels leave me very cold I'm afraid. He's such a nice guy, and so talented as a setting designer that I hate saying that. I liked the Horde novels and the Maztica novels, those were both changes I liked. (I ran a campaign in Maztica, with harpers trying to help protect the City of Gold.)
For game design the work of Steven Schend and Eric Boyd is my gold standard. Steven's work wasn't always to my taste, his levels are too high IMO (I'm happy with a 18 level limit) but his work is awesome and his research superb. And research is even more crucial for game designers than for novelists. Eric's work is truly special, fit to warm this old researchers heart.
But, IMO the very best Realm's products, hand's down, are the Volo's Guides by Ed. Almost no game info yet packed front to back with adventure idea after adventure idea. In fact, those guides would be on my list of top 10 RPG products ever, the Realms aside.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You seem to have a set vision and are intolerant of deviation from that vision. You don't accept the evolution of faiths, the emergence of new enemies, or any occurrence that wasn't sufficiently foreshadowed in the original (or at least your ideal) version of the Realms.
Nah, I can accept change. It just has to feel organiz, proper. Khelbin's split with the Harpers, for example. Not my preference but it was earned and foreshadowed properly.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Oh, come on. That's laying it on pretty thick. It's an imaginary game setting, one that often verges on incoherent that is owned by people who don't respect their customers. It's not a person, not a loved one. It's one of many such settings. let's not get too romantic about it.
Well, thank you very much for not shooting me down when I stepped out on a limb. I really appreciate your tact. 
So if you aren't really invested in the setting, then why are we talking about it? Seriously?
You dislike the word impossible, I dislike discussing imaginary gaming worlds (or real world sports teams, for that matter) as if they are religious movements.
I'm invested in the setting, but it isn't my wife or kids, or a political or religious movement to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Pardon the psychoanalysis again, but it seems to me that if you're here, and you've devoted significant time to reading my extremely long winded posts and composing replies, that you have a strong emotional investment in the setting. But by all means--tell me this is a waste of time, and we can just stop talking.
Actually, you the person is more interesting to me than the setting. I've read your replies and responded to them because they were well written and reasoned, and deserved a serious response. This isn't a waste of time.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It does not surprise me that you think that. You don't use the 4e FR (or the 3e for that matter), have made no attempt to have an open mind about it. Are you only interested in expressing your distaste for it?
No, that was a side effect of your defense of it.
For 3e, I thought the Thayan Enclaves was one of the most brilliant ideas I've seen in a very, very long time. I also thoroughly enjoyed the novel trilogy depicting the Elves' return to Myth Drannor. That was the latest series I had read on the Realms before now and it was sweet. I started the Drow books about LLoth's war but simply didn't enjoy them as much. Delving into that world its often just too dark for me. Still, they were well done.
Most of the problems I have with the 3e realms were based on the intrusion of game mechanics, not setting changes. The exceptions were Shade, the Shadowweave, and the Return of Bane. I ignore the first two as if they don't exist and the last is, as i said, just Xvim consolidating his power better. I've always prefered Xvim to Cyric.
Oh, and I disliked 3e separating all the D&D worlds, wishing away the Multiverse. I prefer the 2e cosmography with Planescape and Spelljammer linking the worlds.
4e's Spellpalgue and 100 year leap immediately made me shrug and turn away. My campaign is in 1369 now after 30 years of playing, I doubt I'll live long enough to get to the jump.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
I'm not interested in finding any hope in the Realms, I'm interested in looting its dissicated corpse. I'll scavenge what I find helpful in 3e and 4e and leave the rest in the trash.
As I said, there are lots of other settings and games to spend money on.
Well, good luck with that, and I hope you find something you like better.
Now i feel bad. I guess that was rough to say.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
We have an imperfect understanding of our own world, and yet we're able to live in it.
I'm sure our Dungeonmaster understands it completely.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm not sure what the concept "closed mind" means to you,
In this case, a willingness to recognize and admit FR's flaws, just like I am willing to discover I was wrong, or even just too harsh, in judging 3e or 4e.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
So... getting back to my original post, do you think the Realms is, or is not, prone to RSEs as a setting, and why?
Absolutely. RSEs move product. The setting needs to change (for reasons argued above). WotC combines these two facts into a single business strategy.
Okay, that's a good point. But it doesn't explain why the Realms was prone to these events under TSR, from its inception even. Is it purely economics? Or is it inherent in how Ed envisioned the setting? After all, as I pointed out, the Time of Troubles was his idea...
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 21:41:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Okay, that's a good point. But it doesn't explain why the Realms was prone to these events under TSR, from its inception even. Is it purely economics? Or is it inherent in how Ed envisioned the setting? After all, as I pointed out, the Time of Troubles was his idea...
I know he had the idea of a Godswar, but was it his idea to use such a mechanism to roll out the 2E changes? That's a factoid I don't recall hearing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 21:51:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Okay, that's a good point. But it doesn't explain why the Realms was prone to these events under TSR, from its inception even. Is it purely economics? Or is it inherent in how Ed envisioned the setting? After all, as I pointed out, the Time of Troubles was his idea...
I know he had the idea of a Godswar, but was it his idea to use such a mechanism to roll out the 2E changes? That's a factoid I don't recall hearing.
Well, when he wrote the original article in Dragon #54 1e was the new crazy thing. He specifically suggest the 'Godswar' as a mean to explain a campaign's shift from the original, pamphlet D&D rules to AD&D. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 22:10:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, when he wrote the original article in Dragon #54 1e was the new crazy thing. He specifically suggest the 'Godswar' as a mean to explain a campaign's shift from the original, pamphlet D&D rules to AD&D.
This is something many of us already know.
I think what Wooley was responding to was the sense of your original statement to Erik: it reads as though Ed specifically called TSR up on the phone and said "Hey TSR, I hear you want to make AD&D, so here’s how you make the Realms go through the transition. Start by killing off the following gods…” as opposed to TSR brainstorming, recalling Ed’s article idea for a campaign reset, then making decisions on their own.
As I understand it, Ed posited the idea of “Campaign Reset”, but the Time of Troubles was not specifically his idea. |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 22:32:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Tyrant, my last post was directed to Red Walker, as he had taken my mention of Chosen and Harpers to mean that I intended a full asault.
I don't mean to side track, but I think you and I are the only two discussing this idea. I don't believe Red Walker has commented one way or the other.
quote:
I never stated that anywhere, but for some reason, whenever the thought of any Chosen or other major force of good gets involved in a region, everyone automatically assumes that there will be a war involved. This may be true in some cases, but that is not generally how such folk operate, as they tend to work behind the scenes in most places.
I'm approaching it from the assumption that their machinations will not remain a mystery forever and the Zulkirs will find out who is messing with their program. If you approach it from that assumption, I think an out assault looks more appealing because you will hopefully catch enough of the upper level types off guard that you will ensure their eventual defeat. I hate to compare this to a Nicholas Cage movie, but it's a similar idea to what he says in Gone in 60 Seconds. They are confronted with 2 choices in how they will go about stealing the cars they need to steal. Option A is subterfuge and misdirection to mislead the cops. Option B is to do it as hard and fast as possible. The downside of Option A is that it tips off the cops that something is going on, Option B counts on being able to get the job done before they know what's going on. We disagree on which option is the better option against Thay. I do not believe option B is always the best option, I just believe it is the best option against Thay.
quote:
I for one never go in asuming that a war is the best or most likely successful solution to such conflicts, as I prefer to tak a more subtle and long-term approach to problems. I'm pretty sure Elminster and Khelben would do the same. These are canny old birds, and they would want to cause as little collateral damage as possible- unlike the zulkirs, who probably don't care beyond the amount of financial and material loss they might sustain. And unfortunately, I don't think that staying out of it serves ANYONE. Certainly not "the greater good". Try telling that to the masses under the zulkirs' thumbs, and you would likely be spat upon in reply. And there comes a point when enough is enough, and people become desperate enough to risk anything to improve their lives to some semblance of human dignity (or any other race's ideas of dignity). If nothing else, I would think that a massive PR campaign by the churches of Torm Helm and Ilmater is in order. Change people's views, and you've changed the world....
I look at it like this. The Zulkirs are quite likely to go out in a blaze of glory taking as much down with them as they can if they know their down fall is assured. If they know one of the Chosen is directly involved, they will intentionally target some epic level destructive magic on something they know the Chosen love just for spite. Maybe whatever the Chosen have in place to stop that will hold, maybe it won't. Or, they directly challenge the Chosen and it ends in a spell storm of epic proportions that could easily leave some place (maybe Thay, maybe the heart of Cormyr) devoid of life or swimming in chaotic magics for quite some time. I believe the potential for a massively destructive final battle is something that stays their hand. You disagree and believe that the potential outcome is worth the risk. I think careful consideration of all potential consequences is in order. Things may get better, or they may get worse.
As for the "greater good", there's a reason why that statement is despised by many. The "greater good" has the obvious implication that someone is going to get screwed. Hearing about the greater good is usually little comfort to those who are on the other end of things. However, that outlook is often a necessary evil. In our world, would the greater good have been served by going to war with the Soviets so as to free their people from their iron rule? I say it wouldn't have been because the likely consequences included all out nuclear war which means we all lose the game. Happiness for some is better than happiness for none in other words. I believe you and I disagree on how likely the "they all lose" outcome is in meddling in the affairs of Thay. I say, let the system collapse in on itself instead of giving them an enemy to focus on. I also believe that the Chosen are held back by Mystra. They serve her interests first and foremost, and her interests don't always coincide with "good" or "moral".
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
I already mentioned one: Call of Cthulhu. I am not familiar with Battletech novels enough to know everything, but I don't think they had anything like the spellplague (you cannot really count wars since that is essentially what the whole setting is about). I would also argue that while Shadowrun recently had an RSE (with its' conversion to 4th edition), the reasoning behind this was to make an aspect of the game that had been virtually unplayable (ie deckers) work in the game (a problem the Realms definitely did not have).
The point about Battletech and the rest were that they do not have static timelines and they are broadly successful. Battletech has suffered at least one event that I think is in the same vain as a RSE and at least one other that I would greatly consider adding to that list. The first that I believe qualifies is the Word of Blake Jihad. Jihadists running around nuking planets right and left and eventually leading to the foundation of the Republic of the Sphere which lead to a draw down of military forces. The other I would put out there is the Clan Invasion. It added many new factions and added new technologies that differed from previous rules (as I understand it, most of my knowledge on this is second hand). And yes, you should count wars when they are fundamentally different from the day to day warfare and lead to lasting change in the setting. Magic and destruction are everyday occurences in the Realms yet we consider the Spellplague a RSE, why wouldn't we count critical wars in a setting that is otherwise filled with war.
As for CoC, it's easy for a game to be static when the novels are static (due to a case of the author having been dead for several decades) and it is somewhat based in the real world. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 22:59:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
The point about Battletech and the rest were that they do not have static timelines and they are broadly successful. Battletech has suffered at least one event that I think is in the same vain as a RSE and at least one other that I would greatly consider adding to that list. The first that I believe qualifies is the Word of Blake Jihad. Jihadists running around nuking planets right and left and eventually leading to the foundation of the Republic of the Sphere which lead to a draw down of military forces. The other I would put out there is the Clan Invasion. It added many new factions and added new technologies that differed from previous rules (as I understand it, most of my knowledge on this is second hand). And yes, you should count wars when they are fundamentally different from the day to day warfare and lead to lasting change in the setting. Magic and destruction are everyday occurences in the Realms yet we consider the Spellplague a RSE, why wouldn't we count critical wars in a setting that is otherwise filled with war.
Correct. First was the Clan invasion, which intro'ed new factions with superior technology, and really shook things up. Much like the Realms, there are still those that prefer the pre-Invasion timeline set around the time of the 4th Succession War, which is when the novels and game material were initially set. The Clans showed up in 3050, about 25 years after the 4th Succession War kicked off.
The Jihad kicked off in 3073 (or thereabouts), and was much like the Sellplague: a major event that rewrote everything, and was initially undetailed because the timeline was advanced a significant amount (3120-something, I believe). And much like the Sellplague, the Jihad had a very divisive effect among the fanbase. I personally have more issues with the Jihad and its results than I do with what was done to the Realms, and it's a large part of the reason I've slowly drifted away from BattleTech. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 23:11:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Correct. First was the Clan invasion, which intro'ed new factions with superior technology, and really shook things up. Much like the Realms, there are still those that prefer the pre-Invasion timeline set around the time of the 4th Succession War, which is when the novels and game material were initially set. The Clans showed up in 3050, about 25 years after the 4th Succession War kicked off.
The Jihad kicked off in 3073 (or thereabouts), and was much like the Sellplague: a major event that rewrote everything, and was initially undetailed because the timeline was advanced a significant amount (3120-something, I believe). And much like the Sellplague, the Jihad had a very divisive effect among the fanbase. I personally have more issues with the Jihad and its results than I do with what was done to the Realms, and it's a large part of the reason I've slowly drifted away from BattleTech.
Believe it or not my interest in Battletech started with the cartoon so the Clan Invasion was where I started. It wasn't until a while later that I realized everything started earlier (3025?). From there it was the Mechwarrior computer games (where is part 5? I want more totally customizable mechs) and assembling/painting a few pewter models for kicks. Eventually I got interested again thanks to the Clix game and ended up reading 13 or 14 Dark Age novels. I haven't been able to bring myself to finish reading them since I stopped playing the Clix game (mainly because it died). One of these days I need to get some of the pre-Jihad books too. Unfortunately I have never played the actual Battletech table top game (but I own one version of it that I bought at some point, just couldn't ever find anyone to play). |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 23:19:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
The point about Battletech and the rest were that they do not have static timelines and they are broadly successful. Battletech has suffered at least one event that I think is in the same vain as a RSE and at least one other that I would greatly consider adding to that list. The first that I believe qualifies is the Word of Blake Jihad. Jihadists running around nuking planets right and left and eventually leading to the foundation of the Republic of the Sphere which lead to a draw down of military forces. The other I would put out there is the Clan Invasion. It added many new factions and added new technologies that differed from previous rules (as I understand it, most of my knowledge on this is second hand). And yes, you should count wars when they are fundamentally different from the day to day warfare and lead to lasting change in the setting. Magic and destruction are everyday occurences in the Realms yet we consider the Spellplague a RSE, why wouldn't we count critical wars in a setting that is otherwise filled with war.
Correct. First was the Clan invasion, which intro'ed new factions with superior technology, and really shook things up. Much like the Realms, there are still those that prefer the pre-Invasion timeline set around the time of the 4th Succession War, which is when the novels and game material were initially set. The Clans showed up in 3050, about 25 years after the 4th Succession War kicked off.
The Jihad kicked off in 3073 (or thereabouts), and was much like the Sellplague: a major event that rewrote everything, and was initially undetailed because the timeline was advanced a significant amount (3120-something, I believe). And much like the Sellplague, the Jihad had a very divisive effect among the fanbase. I personally have more issues with the Jihad and its results than I do with what was done to the Realms, and it's a large part of the reason I've slowly drifted away from BattleTech.
This actually brings up a point I have been wanting to make here. It puts me in the uncomfortable position of defending WoTC, which I rarely do. But I still try to follow Battletech fiction. The franchise is currently held by Catalyst Game Labs and they have a website devoted to putting out digital fiction, game material and scenarios @ Battlecorp.com. At first this was a great idea and there was plenty of fiction to be had. But over time the fiction and the site have atrophied. There is still fiction being released, but at a slower rate and by mostly amateur writers. The site itself is pretty poor as it is very VERY difficult to find and keep track of the fiction. Catalyst is still putting out game material of a decent quality but at a slow pace.
My whole point of this is that we should be happy that a large company like WoTC is supporting D&D and the Realms. Because I have seen what happens when companies with little capital get a hold of a license. I prefer the steady flow of novels that WoTC puts out even if I don't like or agree with the directions they move the narrative in. I applaud Catalyst for their efforts with Battletech and I think that they have a good vision for it. But the resources just don't seem to be there for them to carry it though.
|
Edited by - Caolin on 27 Jan 2011 23:21:15 |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:07:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
RW, I think you've missed my point.......
Whaaaatt?  ....... |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:15:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Jihad kicked off in 3073 (or thereabouts), and was much like the Sellplague: a major event that rewrote everything, and was initially undetailed because the timeline was advanced a significant amount (3120-something, I believe).
Actually, the Jihad began in late 3067, after the dissolution of the Second Star League. It ended in 3081. The "Dark Ages/Age of Destruction" timeline began around 3130. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:19:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
This actually brings up a point I have been wanting to make here. It puts me in the uncomfortable position of defending WoTC, which I rarely do. But I still try to follow Battletech fiction. The franchise is currently held by Catalyst Game Labs and they have a website devoted to putting out digital fiction, game material and scenarios @ Battlecorp.com. At first this was a great idea and there was plenty of fiction to be had. But over time the fiction and the site have atrophied. There is still fiction being released, but at a slower rate and by mostly amateur writers. The site itself is pretty poor as it is very VERY difficult to find and keep track of the fiction. Catalyst is still putting out game material of a decent quality but at a slow pace.
My whole point of this is that we should be happy that a large company like WoTC is supporting D&D and the Realms. Because I have seen what happens when companies with little capital get a hold of a license. I prefer the steady flow of novels that WoTC puts out even if I don't like or agree with the directions they move the narrative in. I applaud Catalyst for their efforts with Battletech and I think that they have a good vision for it. But the resources just don't seem to be there for them to carry it though.
Yeah I know what you mean. I am thankful that a company that can afford to release a steady stream of novels is in charge, even though they do make some moves that I question. As for Battletech, I still hold out hope that somehow Wizkids revives the Clix game (they revived HeroClix and they are apparently bringing back Mage Knight so I believe anything is possible) and that someone gets around to making Mechwarrior 5 for the PC. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:20:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But I still try to follow Battletech fiction. The franchise is currently held by Catalyst Game Labs and they have a website devoted to putting out digital fiction, game material and scenarios @ Battlecorp.com. At first this was a great idea and there was plenty of fiction to be had. But over time the fiction and the site have atrophied. There is still fiction being released, but at a slower rate and by mostly amateur writers. The site itself is pretty poor as it is very VERY difficult to find and keep track of the fiction. Catalyst is still putting out game material of a decent quality but at a slow pace.
Errr... I'm not sure where you're coming from with this. CGL have done a fine job promoting the game of BATTLETECH, and the BattleCorps website [and its associated fiction], is as strong as its ever been. With plenty more post-Jihad fiction and early Republic stories on the way.
quote:
I applaud Catalyst for their efforts with Battletech and I think that they have a good vision for it. But the resources just don't seem to be there for them to carry it though.
I'm not sure I follow. As it is, CGL are practically releasing new stuff for BT nearly every month -- whether it be printed or digitally published PDF-only material. That's far more frequent than back in the days of FASA or FanPro. And the quality of these products are still of the highest calibre. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:25:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
To give a sense of how *I* approach writing in the setting--I try to find a balance between highlighting old lore and bringing in new ideas. I push back against changes I don't like by finding cool ways to explain/invert them. And above all, I try to stay true to the spirit of the setting, simply because I've grown up with it and it's a part of my vision.
Sounds like I'm going to really love your stuff, then. That's what I'm arguing for as the requirements for all realms authors.
I'm reading Blackstaff now, I'll read Realms of the Elves next.
I would suggest Erik's novel Ghostwlaker to you no matter how you enjoy
His short story in Realms of the Elves. It is quite different in feel and tone(I like both, but I could see someone enjoying one more than the other.) Almost forgot, Wayfarer, a free promotional short prequel he wrote for the wotc site, it would be a quick easy read to gauge his style for you.....Here is a link to it :
http://o-love.net/realms/samples/sam_fig2_2.pdf
This was one of the best realms scrolls I have read in months...until battle tech showed up in force! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 28 Jan 2011 00:29:38 |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:41:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But I still try to follow Battletech fiction. The franchise is currently held by Catalyst Game Labs and they have a website devoted to putting out digital fiction, game material and scenarios @ Battlecorp.com. At first this was a great idea and there was plenty of fiction to be had. But over time the fiction and the site have atrophied. There is still fiction being released, but at a slower rate and by mostly amateur writers. The site itself is pretty poor as it is very VERY difficult to find and keep track of the fiction. Catalyst is still putting out game material of a decent quality but at a slow pace.
Errr... I'm not sure where you're coming from with this. CGL have done a fine job promoting the game of BATTLETECH, and the BattleCorps website [and its associated fiction], is as strong as its ever been. With plenty more post-Jihad fiction and early Republic stories on the way.
quote:
I applaud Catalyst for their efforts with Battletech and I think that they have a good vision for it. But the resources just don't seem to be there for them to carry it though.
I'm not sure I follow. As it is, CGL are practically releasing new stuff for BT nearly every month -- whether it be printed or digitally published PDF-only material. That's far more frequent than back in the days of FASA or FanPro. And the quality of these products are still of the highest calibre.
Are you subscribed to Battlecorp? Because I find the site and their digital store front horribly outdated and very poorly put together. The Battleshop is even worse. I don't know what you consider strong, but here are several digital novels that have been left unfinished for a year or two and an acknowledgment that they might never bee finished. Heck, you have to have a subscription to even look at the forums or to see what new fiction was released. I have made many posts on their forums to suggest better methods of display and distribution on their website but the only response I get is (we know, but there isn't anything we can do about it).
As for the game products, I'll admit that I may have exaggerated. I don't game so I don't pay attention to what is generally released. But I did admit that the quality of their products is high. I just personally feel that they would get a lot more business on the fiction end if they were smart about the layout of their site and their digital store front. Anyways, back to the Realms. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 01:08:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Are you subscribed to Battlecorp?
Yes.
quote:
Because I find the site and their digital store front horribly outdated and very poorly put together. The Battleshop is even worse.
Bear in mind, that a site-redesign is on the agenda.
quote:
I don't know what you consider strong, but here are several digital novels that have been left unfinished for a year or two and an acknowledgment that they might never bee finished.
That's an complicated issue. Compounded by both the legal issues CGL is wrapped up in, and, also, the amount of time authors are devoting to projects on BattleCorps. Which is largely the same sort of problems most authors encounter at one time or another.
quote:
Heck, you have to have a subscription to even look at the forums or to see what new fiction was released. I have made many posts on their forums to suggest better methods of display and distribution on their website but the only response I get is (we know, but there isn't anything we can do about it).
I must admit, I've never heard anything like that coming for the BC staff.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 01:29:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I must admit, I've never heard anything like that coming for the BC staff.
I'll admit I don't know if they were BC staff. I believe that they were but I can't check because I let my subscription lapse recently. I don't want to make it seem like I am bashing Catalyst or BC. I want to see them succeed in the worst way. But I have been a frustrated customer of the site for years. My point that I wanted to make is that they have limitations that public companies like WoTC do not. I know Catalyst is trying and I appreciate it. But it is nice that the Realms is fairly stable comparatively. |
|
|
|
Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 02:51:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
What are the broadly successful gaming worlds (implemented across multiple platforms like gaming supplements, novels, and video games) that have static timelines?
I'm asking because I can't think of any: the Realms, Battletech, Warhammer 40K, Shadowrun, World of Darkness. They've all dealt with "RSEs" in their own way, haven't they?
Warhammer 40k has an incredibly static timeline. The date hasn't moved past 999.M41 for decades of real time, and 'RSEs' are pretty much ignored in the setting and any impact dulled. By means of an example, the Eye of Terror global campaign ended with an Eldar Farseer (Eldrad Ulthran) sacrificing himself to stop an attack, and the Imperial planet Cadia occupied by Chaos forces. Yet in this current edition of the game, I can still field Eldrad in an Eldar army, and deploy Cadian Shock Troops. Nothing changed.
What 40k has done successfully is divorce the other platforms from the main 'story', as it were. The fiction novels are either set in the distant past (Horus Heresy) or don't tend to involve any changes to the main story. The RPG's are all explicitly set in their own sectors that have been created especially for the RPG's. Video games such as Dawn of War use a Space Marine chapter custom created for the game itself.
Speaking specifically to the novels, it's interesting to note that many successful ones didn't need a major change at all, they just told a good, if generic story. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 05:20:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Warhammer 40k has an incredibly static timeline. The date hasn't moved past 999.M41 for decades of real time, and 'RSEs' are pretty much ignored in the setting and any impact dulled. By means of an example, the Eye of Terror global campaign ended with an Eldar Farseer (Eldrad Ulthran) sacrificing himself to stop an attack, and the Imperial planet Cadia occupied by Chaos forces. Yet in this current edition of the game, I can still field Eldrad in an Eldar army, and deploy Cadian Shock Troops. Nothing changed.
Well, really, considering the near-30,000+ years of history between now and the grim future of war portrayed in the WH40K content, I'd say the writers/designers still have a great deal of room to "shake things up."
Okay, so yes, they're somewhat limited in what stories they can tell, and how far they can shake things up -- especially in the past, since we already know what happens in the future. But the "Horus Heresy" series, I think, provides an excellent example of how the universe isn't as static as some believe.
For so long, we've only known tidbit details about what occurred when Horus turned his attention to the Emperor of Mankind. We had to satisfy ourselves with the snippets of past info from army books, magazine articles, and the like.
With these novels, however, we're now seeing a new degree of vibrancy injected into a long established universe -- with entirely new events and situations occurring in the setting that we'd previously only learned about as rumour, or not at all.
I look forward to seeing what comes next. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 05:37:59
|
| The only 40k fantasy I've read has been the stuff on Ragnar Blackmane. I'm a huge Space Wolves fan, because who doesn't love the idea of high tech Vikings? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Why so many Realms Shattering Events?
