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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 02:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Oh, so LE, then.... If no one sees it, it didn't happen....
Well, the nine pegs alignment system isn't one I use, but back when I did, I wouldn't say that someone qualified for LE if he had no real interest in legality, but only played by the rules when it benefitted him personally.
The fact that in well-policed cities, it almost always pays to obey the law means that he is usually careful to be legal. But outside of those specific areas, he has no problems with engaging in piracy, smuggling, slavery, etc.
In morals, he most resembles Elaith Craulnober, except that he is not as arrogant or racist. And Elaith is listed as NE. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 03:37:20
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Ah. My mistake. I was applying human standanrds to an almost completely different race. Since they don't get fertile until the age of 90 but are sexually active before they reach such age, then "pedophilia" is quite a common practice. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 04:27:40
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| In case of such things like elves and their weird "I'm mature but not really" I would say that it would be save to call "pedophilia" attraction towards children as in "yet not mature physically". |
Edited by - Imp on 16 Nov 2011 04:28:54 |
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Sousana
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 13:04:38
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| Drow are an excessively long-lived race, and they easily get bored. They are not exactly virtuous or inhibited. Add in various means to inhibit pregnancy, and I would say incest is as rampant as any other kind of sexuality in their society. If nothing else, sex would be used as a tool of domination among siblings. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 13:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And considering how/from WHOM Liriel herself learned certain "Arts", I'd say that it's probably pretty common for drow to learn about the "birds and bees" at a rather young age. (She was only 35 at the beginning of Daughter of hte Drow- practically a child, even though "technically" physically mature. I'll note that she was described as looking like a fifteen-year-old in human terms at that age.) Presuming that this happened at least five years earlier, (I think it was mentioned as around the time of of her blooding or possibly before, either there or in the RotU story "The Blooding") she'd have been only about 25 when she was, er- initiated. Pedophilia? Possibly border-line, in her case....
By definition, pedophilia is attraction to pre-pubescent children. It cannot apply to any relations with a menstruating female.
Chris Hanson would disagree |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 13:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Oh, so LE, then.... If no one sees it, it didn't happen....
What is LE anyways? You commit a murder, but drive the speed limit on the way home?  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 13:57:17
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If you look over the Pathfinder Reference Document, while granted, it isn't speaking of the Realms, it gives a bit on how advancement through the houses are, as can be seen here.
For those of you that do not wish to click the link, the last line of drow noble reads: Advancement through the hierarchy of a drow noble house is usually accomplished through a combination of assassination, seduction, and treachery, leading most drow in power to be overly paranoid.
Clearly, the boldface type there is my own, and not in the document. It's rather direct, and I've no problem accepting that. They are still an intriguing race to play, and their culture fascinating to look over in all the game materials on drow. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 14:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Oh, so LE, then.... If no one sees it, it didn't happen....
What is LE anyways? You commit a murder, but drive the speed limit on the way home?
I would say that it means that you believe strongly in a system of laws or code of morality and that you adhere to these tenets, but that they are of a nature that D&D choooses to call evil.
An inquisitor who follows the repressive doctrine of a tyranical church to the letter, a knight who believes that might makes right and all weaker beings are his chattels but that might is determined by legal duels with equal weapons or similar examples to these. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 15:50:23
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The lawful in the alignment system never referred to the law laid down by the government, simply an adherence to a personal code of conduct.
This is one of the reasons I like the new alignment system better. Debates between "Is he lawful evil or neutral evil" and "good or chaotic good" are ended. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 16:24:37
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My assumption is that all Elves are not humans (a GOOD assumption to make - most people seem to forget they are an 'alien' race), and are not prone to the normal, biological problems inbreeding has with humans. They are also not governed by humans morality, which barely exists in the Realms to begin with (from a RW perspective).
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, that's why I said it was borderline. They are physically mature by about 25 (again, according to Ed) but not sexually. A weird grey area. *shrugs*
I used to know a 12-yr-old girl that most people thought was at least 17, and was fully developed. She was dating my son, who was 14 at the time (and he still looked like a little kid then). I also had a best friend as a kid who was taller then the teacher in 3rd grade, and was fooling around with 16-yr-old girls when he was 12 (he finished growing at 6'7").
So yeah, you can look like an adult, but still be a kid - this is how I figure it works with Elves. With humans, you can usually tell after dealing with such a prematurely developed person because of maturity issues in their personality, but an elf would show little evidence, having lived a life as long or longer then many fully matured human adults (so an Elven child that looks about eight would probably be more mature mentally then an 18-yr-old human, because she might actually be older then him). However, emotionally, I would think they would still be nearly as immature as a human of the proportionate age (this is based on my observations of genius-level children, who are much more mentally astute then most people, but are still just kids inside).
So if it looks eight years old, it could be as smart as a college professor and speak like one, but would still cry if you took away their lollipop.
As a bizarre point-of-reference, if anyone has seen the The Santa Clause, there is a scene in there which is a bit creepy, but funny, wherein Tim Allen compliments the child-like Elf girl, and she says "Thanks, but I am already seeing someone in wrapping" (or some-such). That's how I picture Elf-children acting (without the dating reference, of course).
*Edited by Markus for reasons of good taste. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2011 17:29:12 |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 16:47:14
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| Weren't elves basically growing up only a little bit slower then humans? It is said in Races of The Wild that an elven 10 year old child is physically as matured as a human child of the same age. Only after around 15 years the elves start aging slower, becoming physically mature at around the age of 25, while humans stop growing at 20. So in reality elves aren't that different then humans, it's just the society that is threating a, for example, 100 year old elf as still not an adult. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 19:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Oh, so LE, then.... If no one sees it, it didn't happen....
What is LE anyways? You commit a murder, but drive the speed limit on the way home?
I would say that it means that you believe strongly in a system of laws or code of morality and that you adhere to these tenets, but that they are of a nature that D&D choooses to call evil.
An inquisitor who follows the repressive doctrine of a tyranical church to the letter, a knight who believes that might makes right and all weaker beings are his chattels but that might is determined by legal duels with equal weapons or similar examples to these.
The way I see it, lawful types care about the group, rather it's a family, an organization, or a nation-state. Chaotic types are more concerned with the individual. Neutral types will fall in the middle -- for some things, they'll see the group as more important, for others, they'll see the individual as more important. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 19:18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I see it, lawful types care about the group, rather it's a family, an organization, or a nation-state. Chaotic types are more concerned with the individual. Neutral types will fall in the middle -- for some things, they'll see the group as more important, for others, they'll see the individual as more important.
One of the reasons I don't use the alignment system is that it is possible to be strongly lawful in behaviour for reasons founded in individualism. See for example Locke's view of the law and the state.
A simplistic system like this fails to adequately model most real people, most fictional people and most proposed character concepts. Thus, it does me no good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 20:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I see it, lawful types care about the group, rather it's a family, an organization, or a nation-state. Chaotic types are more concerned with the individual. Neutral types will fall in the middle -- for some things, they'll see the group as more important, for others, they'll see the individual as more important.
One of the reasons I don't use the alignment system is that it is possible to be strongly lawful in behaviour for reasons founded in individualism. See for example Locke's view of the law and the state.
A simplistic system like this fails to adequately model most real people, most fictional people and most proposed character concepts. Thus, it does me no good.
I, on the contrary, have long felt that the 9 alignment system is more than sufficient for these same things. As long as you keep in mind that it's a guideline and not a hard and fast set of behaviors and motivations, it's a very workable system. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 20:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I see it, lawful types care about the group, rather it's a family, an organization, or a nation-state. Chaotic types are more concerned with the individual. Neutral types will fall in the middle -- for some things, they'll see the group as more important, for others, they'll see the individual as more important.
One of the reasons I don't use the alignment system is that it is possible to be strongly lawful in behaviour for reasons founded in individualism. See for example Locke's view of the law and the state.
A simplistic system like this fails to adequately model most real people, most fictional people and most proposed character concepts. Thus, it does me no good.
I, on the contrary, have long felt that the 9 alignment system is more than sufficient for these same things. As long as you keep in mind that it's a guideline and not a hard and fast set of behaviors and motivations, it's a very workable system.
I agree with you on this. It always bothered me when fellow players would adhere to the alignment guidelines almost to a religious degree. Lawful Good characters can lose their cool sometimes people |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 21:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, on the contrary, have long felt that the 9 alignment system is more than sufficient for these same things. As long as you keep in mind that it's a guideline and not a hard and fast set of behaviors and motivations, it's a very workable system.
When two people ostensibly of the same aligment approach the same ethical dilemma in radically different ways, what, precisely, is aligment telling me, as a GM?
Depending on what he regards as categorical imperatives, a Kantian deontological moralist may be LE, LN or LG. Utilitarianists might be any alignment, depending on their flavour and how strictly they adhere. So on and so forth.
If alignment doesn't give me some clue for what a given character would regard as the right action in a given dilemma, I don't get what it's for. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 21:51:37
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| Ekhem. Guys, you're going off-topic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 21:53:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, on the contrary, have long felt that the 9 alignment system is more than sufficient for these same things. As long as you keep in mind that it's a guideline and not a hard and fast set of behaviors and motivations, it's a very workable system.
When two people ostensibly of the same aligment approach the same ethical dilemma in radically different ways, what, precisely, is aligment telling me, as a GM?
That they have different personalities.
Even the same person can react differently to repeated scenarios, depending on a wide variety of factors. No alignment system can cover that, unless you keep in mind that alignment in D&D is a guideline, a set of generalities about how people of a given alignment will act.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Depending on what he regards as categorical imperatives, a Kantian deontological moralist may be LE, LN or LG. Utilitarianists might be any alignment, depending on their flavour and how strictly they adhere. So on and so forth.
I have no idea what those are. What I know is how people act, and that the 9-alignment system ably serves its purpose as a guideline for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If alignment doesn't give me some clue for what a given character would regard as the right action in a given dilemma, I don't get what it's for.
If it doesn't give you a clue, that's not the failing of the system. It's given thousands -- if not tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands -- of other gamers a clue, which proves it works. You may not like the system, but it is a proven one. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Nov 2011 21:53:55 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 23:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I used to know a 12-yr-old girl that most people thought was at least 17, and was fully developed (and had a body most grown women would be envious of). She was dating my son, who was 14 at the time (and he still looked like a little kid then). I also had a best friend as a kid who was taller then the teacher in 3rd grade, and was having sex with 16-yr-old girls when he was 12 (he finished growing at 6'7")
I really do not feel that such information was needed or asked for, or very proper. I ask that this be removed by a mod, please. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 16 Nov 2011 23:44:46 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 23:52:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I used to know a 12-yr-old girl that most people thought was at least 17, and was fully developed (and had a body most grown women would be envious of). She was dating my son, who was 14 at the time (and he still looked like a little kid then). I also had a best friend as a kid who was taller then the teacher in 3rd grade, and was having sex with 16-yr-old girls when he was 12 (he finished growing at 6'7")
I really do not feel that such information was needed or asked for, or very proper. I ask that this be removed by a mod, please.
It appears relevant to the subject matter, particularly as it had widened to cover elven sexuality.
I would feel very uncomfortable if it was removed by a moderator. Zealous attempts to regulate everything that might offend anyone, anywhere makes me queasy and causes me great offence.
The idea that teenagers have sex is not revolutionary. Trying to pretend that it doesn't happen or that it shouldn't happen, however, is very harmful to both adults and teenagers. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 23:52:11
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| Insofar as the age humans reach full physical maturity, I would judge it closer to 30 than 20. Mental maturity (at least in social context) is another thing entirely, some people can pass themselves off as grownups at 15, others at 45. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 23:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Insofar as the age humans reach full physical maturity, I would judge it closer to 30 than 20. Mental maturity (at least in social context) is another thing entirely, some people can pass themselves off as grownups at 15, others at 45.
In terms of physical athletic performance, fertility, strength, endurance, flexibility and other such benchmarks, early twenties to twenty-five would be correct.
The decline that starts at 25-28 is not all that rapid, though, and you can still see top athletes improving performance as they continue to train their bodies and improve skills. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 00:00:06
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| The fact that it is mentioned here on a site such as this is where I feel it is improper: Where young impressionable children that are not truly prepared for such subjects could read it. Therefore, my request stands as it is. Though perhaps closing this scroll would once again be a good idea. I believe this has gone as far as it should or could. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 04:16:41
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I think that Joran does bring up valid points, but I am not, at this time, comfortable with going in and removing posts or closing the thread.
I will bring this up with the Sage and Big Al, and see what they have to say. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 05:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think that Joran does bring up valid points, but I am not, at this time, comfortable with going in and removing posts or closing the thread.
I will bring this up with the Sage and Big Al, and see what they have to say.
We will, of course, abide by any decision made thusly. I would, however, urge that it be allowed to remain. I am immensely uncomfortable with the censorship precedent such actions establish, especially considering it does indeed have relevance to the topic at hand.
For years, I was not at all worried if my son flipped through my Playboy magazines (not an issue now that he's an adult, obviously), but it was well into his teens before he was allowed to view a violent movie.
To me, it says something if we can coolly discuss methods of butchering and disemboweling sentient beings in context of an RPG and not even blink, but yet someone makes a statistical comparison in the process of describing a natural function, when making an RPG comparison, and suddenly he's the villain? This, to me, makes absolutely no sense. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 05:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think that Joran does bring up valid points, but I am not, at this time, comfortable with going in and removing posts or closing the thread.
I will bring this up with the Sage and Big Al, and see what they have to say.
Thank you, Wooly. I appreciate that. I as well shall abide by the overall consensus. Also, thank you for understanding where I am coming from. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 08:11:23
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| I don't see how the topic of incest is any more offensive to young minds than murder, demons, evil gods, torture, slavery, prostitution ("fest halls") and so forth. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 08:57:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't see how the topic of incest is any more offensive to young minds than murder, demons, evil gods, torture, slavery, prostitution ("fest halls") and so forth.
Let's keep in mind that what Joran specifically objected to was not incest, as such, but the idea that adolescents mature at different ages and that those who mature early physically may have sexual intercourse with other adolescents.
Objecting to a statement of fact about this perfectly natural state of affairs, but matter-of-factly accepting the constant discussion about ultra-violence as entertainment strikes me as deeply disturbing. Justifying it with 'But who will think of the children?' only serves to make it less morally palatable. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 10:46:30
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This has been a sensitive subject since this scroll's inception... I should like to ask once more that people continue to respect the opinions and thoughts of others.
Discussions over this scroll's fate continue... I'd really prefer not to see some negativity and disrespect tip us in favor of closing it. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Nov 2011 10:46:54 |
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Drow incest
Topic Locked
