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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 18:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Another question begs to mind. How does Lolth look upon incest? And do the other/former drow deities look upon it differently (in particular Eillistraee)?
I see nothing in incest that contradicts the Spider Queen's tenets. So most likely she's apathetic towards it.
Lolth might support the Chaos, though just as watching for personal amusement.
Eilistraee supports love and lovers. Here also is nothing in dogma that says love can not be between close relatives. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 01:48:54
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We're again wandering into treacherous real-life issues here, fellow scribes.
I warned you all the last time, that should these trends continue, this scroll would be sealed once again -- only this time, without hope of ever being re-opened.
So let's stay focused on issues of drow incest in the Realms, eh?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 03:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Another question begs to mind. How does Lolth look upon incest? And do the other/former drow deities look upon it differently (in particular Eillistraee)?
I see nothing in incest that contradicts the Spider Queen's tenets. So most likely she's apathetic towards it.
Lolth might support the Chaos, though just as watching for personal amusement.
Eilistraee supports love and lovers. Here also is nothing in dogma that says love can not be between close relatives.
Incest engenders a very minimal dose of chaos, almost nothing of significance. So at best, Lloth is indifferent to it. Unless, due to her chaotic nature, she suddenly finds interest in it and uses it as a tool to spark more chaos among her pathetic underlings. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 13:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The idea that someone's own sexual tendencies can be forced upon them by entirely external influences isn't one that has a lot of support.
Sexual tendencies [preferences] are externally influenced. Gays are not born gays. Lesbians aren't born lesbians. Their environment [the people they've been dealing with, and to some extent, the media] has much more to do with it.
Menzo's society, or any gender-biased society for that matter, like Lenfell, clearly forces restrictions to the "lesser" populace who have little [or no other] choice but to succumb to.
Um...wrong Dennis |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 13:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Um... I disagree most strenuously (as does science), but this is not a forum for discussing that. Moving on.
Im very surprised that this thread is still open. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 14:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The idea that someone's own sexual tendencies can be forced upon them by entirely external influences isn't one that has a lot of support.
Sexual tendencies [preferences] are externally influenced. Gays are not born gays. Lesbians aren't born lesbians. Their environment [the people they've been dealing with, and to some extent, the media] has much more to do with it.
Menzo's society, or any gender-biased society for that matter, like Lenfell, clearly forces restrictions to the "lesser" populace who have little [or no other] choice but to succumb to.
Um...wrong Dennis
There are valid empirical data that support such premise. I can quote some here, but as our beloved Mods mentioned, we better avoid RW comparisons. So let's leave it at that. If you're interested, though, PM and I shall provide you the links. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 15:08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Another question begs to mind. How does Lolth look upon incest? And do the other/former drow deities look upon it differently (in particular Eillistraee)?
I see nothing in incest that contradicts the Spider Queen's tenets. So most likely she's apathetic towards it.
Lolth might support the Chaos, though just as watching for personal amusement.
Eilistraee supports love and lovers. Here also is nothing in dogma that says love can not be between close relatives.
That sounds plausible, especially if you consider such things an 'interpretation' of Eilistraee's, of certain aspects of drow culture (namely Ed's contention that incest is an accepted more in drow society, so Eilistraee's faithful have merely altered how that cultural aspect is employed, rejecting the brutal aspects and emphasizing the gentle, more intimate aspects). |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 15:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Um... I disagree most strenuously (as does science), but this is not a forum for discussing that. Moving on.
Im very surprised that this thread is still open.
No one is forcing you to read it or post in it. I'm personally very interested in any drow related pieces of info or ideas that aren't easily found in books or on the internet.
If I had to decide on this kind of thing in my game, I would say that because drow are evil they don't think of incest as anything wrong. And if there's some issues with it (like morality or genes or whatever) - why should they care? They're evil and do whatever they like. |
[url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series uk version[/url] [url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-touring-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series touring uk version[/url] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 00:16:41
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| I'm sticking with the premise that while they might not object morally, they do seem to have a general distaste for it, at the least. Lolth may be indifferent, but as pointed out, it leads to inbreeding, which weakens families in the long run, and then there's the simple "ick factor" of being THAT close to your own sibling/parent. In drow society, knowing their family as well as they often do, most drow would likely sooner vith an orc.... It's probably safer! (Thinking of the "Spider's Kiss" bedroom game, here...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 00:26:22
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"ick factor" ?
Hey Drow are supposed to be ickie, the reason all hate them *G*.
Drow do what they want with whomever they want to do it with, Oh the random Orc would be killed so that the encounter could not be reported. Lolth Drow have two goals, gain power and enjoy life. It is achieved with brides, blades, sex and betrayal. *EG* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 02:53:30
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AS if the males have a choice. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 02:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
AS if the males have a choice.
Hey they have a few choices, become a drider, flee into the underdark (and maybe survive), take another faith that might protect them. There are always choices, just most of them result in death, sometimes very slowly. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 03:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hey they have a few choices, become a drider, flee into the underdark (and maybe survive), take another faith that might protect them. There are always choices, just most of them result in death, sometimes very slowly.
Raise someone from birth in a certain social role and most people internalise that role. It never occurs to them that they could alter it.
It is important to emphasise how unusual it is for someone to reject lifelong indoctrination and strike out into the unknown. Drow males, as a general rule, will not feel themselves to be equal to drow females. They are not happy with their lot, perhaps, but it is very easy for them to view it as a natural law, not a social construct. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 03:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
AS if the males have a choice.
Hey they have a few choices, become a drider, flee into the underdark (and maybe survive), take another faith that might protect them. There are always choices, just most of them result in death, sometimes very slowly.
They must be really relieved hearing you say that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 04:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hey they have a few choices, become a drider, flee into the underdark (and maybe survive), take another faith that might protect them. There are always choices, just most of them result in death, sometimes very slowly.
Raise someone from birth in a certain social role and most people internalise that role. It never occurs to them that they could alter it.
It is important to emphasise how unusual it is for someone to reject lifelong indoctrination and strike out into the unknown. Drow males, as a general rule, will not feel themselves to be equal to drow females. They are not happy with their lot, perhaps, but it is very easy for them to view it as a natural law, not a social construct.
And it's that sort of thing that makes the outcasts from that society remarkable... At least, until the entire society is made up of outcasts from that society! |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 14:02:10
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Given the extremely xenophobic attitude of drow, including other drow of lower cast, I can perfectly imagine drow siblings going at it...And then killing their crippled offspring in a gory offering to Lolth.
But it also seems a somewhat expected practice to "adopt" daughter of a fallen house, so getting it on with your "sister" might not be incest after all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 14:23:29
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Another topic that is rather as controversial and serious as incest: pedophilia.
I'm reading Hitman: Enemy Within by William C. Dietz. There are a couple of [disturbing] scenes where wealthy people attended a "party" in Fez where the main entertainment was "performed" by very young children. Thankfully, Dietz wasn't really so graphic in showing it.
So, I wonder, is this [undoubtedly sick] behavior present in the drow society? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 14:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Another topic that is rather as controversial and serious as incest: pedophilia.
I'm reading Hitman: Enemy Within by William C. Dietz. There are a couple of [disturbing] scenes where wealthy people attended a "party" in Fez where the main entertainment was "performed" by very young children. Thankfully, Dietz wasn't really so graphic in showing it.
So, I wonder, is this [undoubtedly sick] behavior present in the drow society?
Personally i think pedophilia is WAY more serious than incest. However, what is illegal today was very common throughout history. Most girls were married off during medieval times by the time they were 14 or 15...usualy to much older men. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 00:19:38
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| And considering how/from WHOM Liriel herself learned certain "Arts", I'd say that it's probably pretty common for drow to learn about the "birds and bees" at a rather young age. (She was only 35 at the beginning of Daughter of hte Drow- practically a child, even though "technically" physically mature. I'll note that she was described as looking like a fifteen-year-old in human terms at that age.) Presuming that this happened at least five years earlier, (I think it was mentioned as around the time of of her blooding or possibly before, either there or in the RotU story "The Blooding") she'd have been only about 25 when she was, er- initiated. Pedophilia? Possibly border-line, in her case.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 00:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And considering how/from WHOM Liriel herself learned certain "Arts", I'd say that it's probably pretty common for drow to learn about the "birds and bees" at a rather young age. (She was only 35 at the beginning of Daughter of hte Drow- practically a child, even though "technically" physically mature. I'll note that she was described as looking like a fifteen-year-old in human terms at that age.) Presuming that this happened at least five years earlier, (I think it was mentioned as around the time of of her blooding or possibly before, either there or in the RotU story "The Blooding") she'd have been only about 25 when she was, er- initiated. Pedophilia? Possibly border-line, in her case....
By definition, pedophilia is attraction to pre-pubescent children. It cannot apply to any relations with a menstruating female. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 00:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, since elves as a race are not even FERTILE until at least 90 or 100(according to Ed), she would NOT have been menstruating yet, by definition. So, um, yeah.....
Must have misunderstood what the title of the short story referred to, then. Sorry, my bad.
In that case, all elvish sub-races accept pedophilia as perfectly natural. Elven adolescents, long before the age of 90 or 100, are expected and encouraged to engage in widespread sexual experimentation. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 00:45:16
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| Well, that's why I said it was borderline. They are physically mature by about 25 (again, according to Ed) but not sexually. A weird grey area. *shrugs* And the title refers to the drow ritual hunt/kill that all young drow undertake around the age of 25. Drizzt never technically went on one, which is presumably why Malice had him kill the goblin as a "test". The Blooding is just that- a test. Usually it involves going out into the Underdark alone with one's choice of weapon, and finding the intended target, then bringing back proof of the kill. Obviously, not all young drow come back. And the punishment for failure.... *shudders* |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 00:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, that's why I said it was borderline. They are physically mature by about 25 (again, according to Ed) but not sexually. A weird grey area. *shrugs*
As it happens, a roguish/merchant prince PC from a campaign I've got set in Ravens Bluff is romantically involved with a young Eilistraen drow elf priestess. He hasn't asked her how old she is, assuming that as an elf she'll be far older than him*. Actually, she's 26, but the high priestess standing in locu parentis didn't feel that she ought to stand in the way of 'young love'.**
Be interesting when he learns that she doesn't need to worry about pregnacy because she's about his natural lifespan away from puberty. 
*Despite a somewhat flighty personality, extreme naivety about humans and a general lack of maturity.
**Besides, she was sure she'd get tired of it in like a couple of nights. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 01:25:30
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That character's personal morality is also interesting from the perspective of some of the views in this thread. He is certainly selfish, definitely callous and without any doubt ruthless; but on the other hand, he doesn't understand prejudice of any sort.
The way he sees it, everyone has needs and desires and everyone has something that they can supply at a comparative advantage to someone else. Indulging in racial hatred or religious persecution means denying someone a chance to fulfil his natural role in the world, i.e. enrich said merchant prince by buying something from him and selling him something else.
If I were pushed to use D&D morality, I'd call him Neutral Evil. But he doesn't engage in everything we recognise as evil. He keeps bargains and sticks to his word*, he judges people on how they act toward him, not their bad reputation or the colour of their skin and he would rather make peace between enemies than stoke the flames of hatred.
It's just that what he really wants is success for himself and if he has to shove a pointy metal thing into the flesh between collarbone and neck a few times on the way, so be it.
*Well, unless he really, really had to break it, I suppose. Hasn't come to that yet. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 01:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd call him True N, then, from the sound of it.
Nah... not really.
He sees nothing wrong with a priest of Bane sacrificing a 'useless' orphan in order to have enough divine power to be able to heal his precious person. There were fourteen other orphans and surely the city wouldn't mind that he'd not have been able to save them all.
If he expects that someone will become a danger to him in the future, he may attempt to make a deal with him, but if he feels that this is too risky, he'll kill him from ambush. On the suspicion that he might intend harm.
Also, if he is forced to do anything that doesn't fit his benevolent image as a public spirited merchant prince who builds orphanages and donates to the mutual defence of his home city, he'll usually try to kill any inconvenient witnesses. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 16 Nov 2011 01:32:58 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Drow incest
Topic Locked
