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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 02:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, if "consensual" = "equality"... do the orcs have equality? Or humans in FR? Or goblins? I don't think so, and not in every case - yet there are couples that have "consensual" thing going on. Take Ashemmi and Sememmon pre-Moonstars. I wouldn't say they're equal. But their relationship is consensual.
In a way, you're answering your original question there. It depends on the individuals involved.
I can well imagine some female drow viewing demanding or forcing sexual favours from a male sibling as perfectly acceptable but it would probably have more to do with psychological domination and misandry than actual pleasure seeking (and thus probably more akin to rape than casual sex).
By the same score, I can see other drow taking the stance Alystra suggested and viewing such acts as a pathertic sign of weakness. But in either case, I don't think many drow's objections or distaste would stem from regarding such an act immoral. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 08 Apr 2011 02:04:55 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 10:00:41
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| Well, I think some males might be not only consenting, but derive pleasure from such a situation... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 11:09:53
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| There's a certain difference between "willing" and "consenting". Drow tend to be physically attractive, have plenty of time to become skilled at carnal activities, and are almost universally devoid of moral standards which might cause one not to want to have sex with someone out of disgust of the horrible things they've done. So barring individual grudges, there aren't a whole lot of reasons why a male wouldn't be willing. Just happens that willing or not, it's going to happen. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 11:44:29
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| I'd imagine that for many drow, merely forcing someone to submit to their advances would be a thrill all its own. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 11:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I think some males might be not only consenting, but derive pleasure from such a situation...
Indeed. Besides, willing or not, they have no other choice. Disobedience means death. For the unwilling, enduring a few moments of discomfort [and some bruises, most probably] is a whole lot better than death. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 13:20:16
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Yay, I've been waiting for this scroll to be Unlocked!!!! Anyway, here's my answer and opinion:
I believe in drow society that you would find. I come to believe that it has no stigma attached to it and they don't really find it wrong. Probably, they just don't want you mating (procreating) with that sibling.
I also believe that there is consensual relationships in drow society. Some (maybe even most non-royal and low royal) drow could give a hoot less about dominating people forcively. Though I'm quite positive that it happens with them. Some drow may actually find romance appealing (think like a sad romance or something you might find in Edgar Allen Poe's work).
As for incest, of course it can be consentual. I actually have a drow character who has an incestous relationship with their brother. The drow might just find that their brother/sister is just another drow. They could do sexual favours for each other or ven find romance (I use V.C. Andrew's masterful book Flowers in the Attic for insperation on my incestous brother characters). |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 15:36:47
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| And I find myself sharing your views, Elendriel... down to every last dot. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 17:28:05
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| It does concern me that a topic on incest is so popular here. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 00:10:30
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| I echo your sentiments chosen. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:34:22
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Okay, that's a worthwhile example of the kinds of problems that could easily derail this discussion once again.
While personal views on such delicate subjects, can sometimes bring something intriguing to a Realms-discussion, most other times they simply serve to keep us all distracted and mired in debates not otherwise related to the actual subject of Realmslore.
So, I'm placing a warning here now. Try to keep such commentary to private channels, or I'll be forced to seal this scroll again... only this time, it will be a permanent sealing. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Apr 2011 01:36:36 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 20:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I think some males might be not only consenting, but derive pleasure from such a situation...
Indeed. Besides, willing or not, they have no other choice. Disobedience means death. For the unwilling, enduring a few moments of discomfort [and some bruises, most probably] is a whole lot better than death.
I agree to this, though I will add that it would depend on the individual. Some drow- especially males- might actually look at death as a REPRIEVE from such treatment. "Gee, do I go vith my sister, whom I find completely a sadistic, b**chy turn off and who beats me daily whether I deserve it or not, or do I refuse her and get to spend the rest of eternity in a plane FAR away from her? Decision....." |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 04:03:55
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| Kinda late, I know, but this may help. At the end of Dissolution, where Pharaun and Greyanna (sister and brother for those of you who don't know) are talking, she asks why Pharaun sided with Sabal (Greyanna's twin) and asked if lust was one of the reasons that he sided with her. Just thought I'd pipe that in. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 04:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I think some males might be not only consenting, but derive pleasure from such a situation...
Indeed. Besides, willing or not, they have no other choice. Disobedience means death. For the unwilling, enduring a few moments of discomfort [and some bruises, most probably] is a whole lot better than death.
I agree to this, though I will add that it would depend on the individual. Some drow- especially males- might actually look at death as a REPRIEVE from such treatment. "Gee, do I go vith my sister, whom I find completely a sadistic, b**chy turn off and who beats me daily whether I deserve it or not, or do I refuse her and get to spend the rest of eternity in a plane FAR away from her? Decision....."
Not that every moment of their lives is spent on suffering. A few minutes of comfort and enjoyment in a day is, for some, worth the pain of the rest of the hours, and is better than not experiencing it at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2011 : 20:19:39
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| That would depend on one's ideas of "comfort and enjoyment", I think. BTW, Erendriel has a good point. I might have mentioned that scene earlier,but my take on that was that her views on it were of mild disgust, though I notice she (Greyanna) did in fact offer him an offer similar to what she THOUGHT Sabal had given. Turns out, her twin never did, and he simply had sided with her (Sabal) as a form of personal challenge to raise her up. So it seems that although it does occasionally happen, it is still viewed with distaste, at the least. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2011 : 21:47:08
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This is a pretty obscure topic, and really gross, but it certainly speaks volumes on drow. Nearly every major drow character has engaged in incest, was confronted by an incestuous relative, or was the product of incest.
It seems apparent that the preponderance of evidence indicates a proclivity for consanguinous matings:
From Gygax and Greenwood we are told that drow revel in this behavior.
From Salvatore we are told that the behavior was ritualized by drow society at large.
From Cunningham we are told that the relationship between incest bred child and parents are relatively normal.
So the real question could be: *WHY* do drow, as a society/culture, engage in incestuous mating? |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 02:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
So the real question could be: *WHY* do drow, as a society/culture, engage in incestuous mating?
Because their nature sometimes sees it as an opportunity to express the females' dominance over males or to forge a temporary alliance. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 05:30:18
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| I'm stumped on this one. Who was the product of incest? I don't recall any character from either Salvatore's or Cunningham's books who was. Phaeraun was propositioned by his sister Greyanna, but only as an offer of alliance to counter the one she THOUGHT her twin Sabal had made (she didn't), and Liriel apparently learned about sex-ed from her uncle Jarlaxle in a rather hands-on fashion, and there is the "possible" but somewhat debatable command from Vierna to Drizzt. (I still contend that she was referring only to his lack of copulation with the unnamed priestess, and his journal assertion that she was coming on to him was his own mistaken interpretation. After all, he had just seen a newly-ordained priestess coupling with a demon. It's not hard to imagine him thinking that if his people would do that, then Vierna might have an incestuous interest in him, even if she didn't.) Other than these few incidents, there doesn't seem to be an overly large amount of it going on, in spite of what Ed and Gygax have said. Most of the characters seem to have come about in the usual way, through non-familial relations. And the only one that might have been something else was Jeggred, who is part demon and was the product of a ritual coupling with a glabrezu. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 19:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all. A swift reply from Ed to the above post from Dennis:
Hi, Dennis. It depends on the society; like humans, drow aren't monolithic in their societal norms - - even within Lolth-and-only-Lolth worshippers. In a city like Menzo as we saw it first in Bob's novels, incest isn't taboo because preservation, promotion, and dominance of the family is paramount; if you might lose territory or wealth by a marriage tie but can keep it by marrying in the family, incestuous formal unions won't be banned. They'd be more of a last resort than preferred, because you aren't swelling the family ranks and gaining bloodties with incestuous formal unions, but not abhorrent to the society. Informal incest (as in, not marriage but daily sex practices) with females as aggressors is probably widespread in some Lolth-dominated matriarchies, as a way of establishing and reinforcing dominance as well as the powerful having fun at the expense of the less powerful, but actual top-of-the-family matriarchs would usually be too paranoid (my sex partner could attack me!) to indulge much, even though they might well have when younger.
And in all such discussions, it's important to remember two things: those gamers offended or uncomfortable with such matters are encouraged to leave it all out of their games, but no one should be reasoning or making points in discussions on such matters by applying modern real-world attitudes, or what they know of historical real-world customs and attitudes, because (it should hardly need be said) the Realms isn't real, and isn't based on our real world more than as a setting for human imaginary goings-on.
For what it's worth, both Gary and I (how do I know this? we talked about it, over beer, at an early GenCon) envisaged the drow of the Vault (our first glimpse of them) as enjoying, not just tolerating, incest and murder and rape and all the rest. They were supposed to be depraved and EVIL, above all else. (And of course, that gets glossed over rather than highlighted in anything official published about them.)
So saith Ed. Illuminating and elucidating as he goes...
love,
THO
Interestingly enough I applied the same above standard to nobles and the wealthy in Calimport. Inverting the male/female roles from that of drow. I had one noble family who intermarried to keep power, wealth, and land holdings from going to others. They also used it as a tool to reinforce domination of family power among males. When dealing with opposite gender family members it resulted in children with week constitutions and a few quirks. They offered the one daughters who was found to be barren at a young age up to sell off as a slave. One of the PC's took pity on her and bought her as a pleasure slave for his house to share with his sons.
Along similar lines, the above by Ed could in whole or in part be applied to various parts of the realms. One of the PC in our currant campaign is the son of an escaped lady shield dwarf who was a former duergar pleasure slave. (She has the physical and phsychological scars to prove it.)
Such things can add a hard sense of alternate sociology to campaigns played by mature players. But then we like out RPG's a little more dark and gritty at points. It adds greater contrast to the bright points of the story when they happen.
:D |
"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 01:18:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There's also the genetic discouragement, as incest in theory creates weak offspring. (This genetic argument is similar to how, through natural selection we have developed aversions to things that can weaken or kill us, such as poisonous spiders, snakes, rotting meat, etc. Those who indulge in those things don't survive as often to perpetuate their genes, while those who avoid them do. And incest is one of those things.)
This factor has been extremely exaggerated in the public perception. In actual fact, the risk of genetic flaws in the offspring of natural siblings is the same as the risks are when the mother is older than 35 years old (among Earth-humans). As for cousins or suchlike, the risks are even more miniscule.
Given that mothers in their forties with young children are rarely viewed as abominations of nature that it is necessary to punish for the good of society, I'm going to go ahead and assume that the stigmatisation of incest in our culture has other reasons than purely natural selection in favour of those who are prejudiced against it.
A fantasy* culture can be Good and still have no stigma against incestous relations. By the same token, it can be Evil and heavily stigmatise all sorts of behaviour. In general, most socities will have a concept of morality. There are things that are Done and other things than are Not Done and if you violate these tenets you will be condemned and even punished. D&D labels certain concepts Good and others Evil.
From a philosophical point of view, any culture that criminalises consensual relations between two adults that harm no one else is far more evil than the one where anyone can freely pursue happiness in whatever way he chooses, as long as he respects that same freedom for others.
*Or real. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 02:07:06
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If natural selection is indeed a factor in the fantasy world, then a taboo against incest in elves might be even stronger than in humans. Elven generations live much longer, and can in theory naturally produce far more offspring than any human could in a single lifetime. Any genetic flaws which do result from inbreeding can remain hidden until the subsequent generation, or indefinitely, and in the case of elves it may literally take millennia for the damage express to the surface.
Of course a prominent factor in the Realms is divine interference. A deity may always decree the exact boundaries which are (and are not) permissable among all its followers. I suspect that few drow would dare defy the commandments set forth by Lolth (or even by Lolth's priestesses). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 02:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm stumped on this one. Who was the product of incest? I don't recall any character from either Salvatore's or Cunningham's books who was. Phaeraun was propositioned by his sister Greyanna, but only as an offer of alliance to counter the one she THOUGHT her twin Sabal had made (she didn't), and Liriel apparently learned about sex-ed from her uncle Jarlaxle in a rather hands-on fashion, and there is the "possible" but somewhat debatable command from Vierna to Drizzt. (I still contend that she was referring only to his lack of copulation with the unnamed priestess, and his journal assertion that she was coming on to him was his own mistaken interpretation. After all, he had just seen a newly-ordained priestess coupling with a demon. It's not hard to imagine him thinking that if his people would do that, then Vierna might have an incestuous interest in him, even if she didn't.) Other than these few incidents, there doesn't seem to be an overly large amount of it going on, in spite of what Ed and Gygax have said. Most of the characters seem to have come about in the usual way, through non-familial relations. And the only one that might have been something else was Jeggred, who is part demon and was the product of a ritual coupling with a glabrezu.
I added the bold to highlight what I was curious about. Where does it say Liriel and Jarlaxle ended up in bed together? Also, where does it say they are even related? I've never seen anything about that in all that I have read. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 02:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I added the bold to highlight what I was curious about. Where does it say Liriel and Jarlaxle ended up in bed together? Also, where does it say they are even related? I've never seen anything about that in all that I have read.
Liriel Baenre, daughter of Gromph Baenre, is naturally enough the niece of Jarlaxe Baenre, eldest third son of Matron Yvonnel Baenre. (edited after discovering I misremembered)
As for their sexual encounter, it is supposedly stated by Word of God that they slept together prior to the first Liriel novel. It fits the evidence, but I shan't bother to look for the citation. Some author interview, I assume. Check TVTropes for the link, which I think you ought to find easily enough by Googling Liriel Baenre and TVTropes together. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Nov 2011 07:01:46 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 04:15:26
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| Interesting. I was told that Jarlaxle belonged to a fallen drow house and that he was the last survivor. That's why it sounded wrong to me. I guess you can't take people at their word. Thank you, Icelander. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 00:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
So the real question could be: *WHY* do drow, as a society/culture, engage in incestuous mating?
Because their nature sometimes sees it as an opportunity to express the females' dominance over males or to forge a temporary alliance.
Another point to consider is the use of sexual dominance in an ecclesiastical form. Obviously, this means 'all-female' (as I recall men are not permitted to be clerics of any sort), but I see higher-ranking priestesses having no problem whatsoever using sexual domination as an expression of superiority and control over their priestly lessers. This is both obviously not something that's at ALL a stretch, nor does it address the scroll's point.
The point here being, however, if a matron chooses to express these dominant tendencies at the expense of a lower priestess who happens to be her niece, her cousin, her sister, or even her daughter, the lesser-ranked drow is going to be able to say precisely ZIP about it, and keeps her 'in her place' in more ways than one.
It also removes the worry about inbreeding - while drow (or anyone in the Realms, for that matter) may not understand the scientific 'defect' principles behind the offspring of such matings, they've likely figured it out on pure observation and record-keeping alone. Two females, unless one has a -koff- 'special spell or magic item', are not going to impact the gene pool in any way - although I would not put such spells or items beyond them to aid in the expression OF such dominations, etc.
- OMH |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 16:48:40
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The dominance of females [coupled with their blatant abuse of power] in Menzo's society, should have, by common reason, forced the males to find comfort in each other's arms [or other body parts I'm not wont to mention here.] Yet we see no evidence of it. Or if there is, it's incredibly scant that it amounts to nothing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 17:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The dominance of females [coupled with their blatant abuse of power] in Menzo's society, should have, by common reason, forced the males to find comfort in each other's arms [or other body parts I'm not wont to mention here.] Yet we see no evidence of it. Or if there is, it's incredibly scant that it amounts to nothing.
That's not somehting I see... Particularly since the converse would be that in any heavily male dominated society, women would be forced to find comfort in each other's arms. As a straight male, that's a thought that I like -- but I've not seen any evidence of this, anywhere.
I think natural reactions to being the "lesser" gender in a society dominated by the other gender would be to accept it with varying degrees of willingness, to fight to prove you're just as good as the other gender, or simply to get out.
The idea that someone's own sexual tendencies can be forced upon them by entirely external influences isn't one that has a lot of support. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 17:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The idea that someone's own sexual tendencies can be forced upon them by entirely external influences isn't one that has a lot of support.
Sexual tendencies [preferences] are externally influenced. Gays are not born gays. Lesbians aren't born lesbians. Their environment [the people they've been dealing with, and to some extent, the media] has much more to do with it.
Menzo's society, or any gender-biased society for that matter, like Lenfell, clearly forces restrictions to the "lesser" populace who have little [or no other] choice but to succumb to. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 17:57:58
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| Um... I disagree most strenuously (as does science), but this is not a forum for discussing that. Moving on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 18:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Another question begs to mind. How does Lolth look upon incest? And do the other/former drow deities look upon it differently (in particular Eillistraee)?
I see nothing in incest that contradicts the Spider Queen's tenets. So most likely she's apathetic towards it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 18:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The idea that someone's own sexual tendencies can be forced upon them by entirely external influences isn't one that has a lot of support.
While 'forced' carries a lot of baggage here, the idea that sexual orientation is primarily a social construct is widely supported by the available data.
See, for example: http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch6.pdf.
Not that I necessarily endorse or agree with the site's agenda, but it was the first study I found that cited Melanesian sexual practices, which are the most powerful argument for sexual orientation as a social construct. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 13 Nov 2011 18:23:21 |
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Drow incest
Topic Locked
