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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
For the record, I strongly support Therise's view of morality (to paraphrase at a very basic level: causing harm = evil). Sexual violence, regardless of the relative status of the perpetrator and target, is always evil.
I also agree that forced upon, or doing anything (be is sexual or otherwise) against someone's will is most definately evil and I look WAYYYYYY down upon anyone willing to commit such an act. Also for the record  . |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:31:46
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Technically, Ed is "always right" until something in the published lore contradicts him.
In this case, there are several examples in the Drow novels of malicious gossip about possible incestuous interactions. The very fact that it is malicious gossip means that it's considered at least -somewhat- taboo, otherwise it wouldn't be malicious gossip. Which means Ed's comment is trumped. It may be non-taboo in his home Realms, but in the novels, it is taboo.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:40:31
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Maybe it depends on the given character's outlook? Or on the given novel author's view. Like Therise and Erik here still have the assumption coming from RL - but we're discussing it in the Realms...
Anyway, thanks for all replies and especially dennis for asking Ed! Bring more ideas here, please? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:44:00
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Nae, Scribe Therise. No "examples in the Drow novels of malicious gossip about possible incestuous interactions" have arisen. Can you name one?
(Page #and source, please)
(You'll note that the points described by poster Alystra Illianis were categorically disqualified)
Jarlaxle was Liriel's first lover. And also her uncle.
Also, published on 21 January, 2011, we have from Greenwood re: Drow
quote:
For what it's worth, both Gary and I (how do I know this? we talked about it, over beer, at an early GenCon) envisaged the drow of the Vault (our first glimpse of them) as enjoying, not just tolerating, incest and murder and rape and all the rest. They were supposed to be depraved and EVIL, above all else. (And of course, that gets glossed over rather than highlighted in anything official published about them.
*added bold for emphasis |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 18:46:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:52:23
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| I suggest we take Ed's advice not to bring RL into the discussion... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:53:48
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| Maybe we all need to step back and take a few deep breaths before continuing this discussion... I don't like the direction I see it heading in, and I should prefer a civilized discussion to a thread getting locked because it overheated. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:56:26
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| Indeed. I'm doing that right now...seriously... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Like Therise and Erik here still have the assumption coming from RL -
No, I'm not. And I don't think Erik is either.
Good and evil are completely real, easily definable things in the game. Not so in real life.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 21 Jan 2011 19:28:05 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Like Therise and Erik here still have the assumption coming from RL -
No, I'm not. And I don't think Erik is either.
Good and evil are completely real, easily definable things in the game. Not so in real life.
Ho ho ho! I wish twere so, Lady Scribe! 'Fore, I once met a Paladin of Torm, one Breis Tallspear by name. He had recently slain a goblin whelp...
Or my good friend, Elminster Sage of Shadowdale... who once slew a sentient being, a black dragon, as I recall...
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 19:37:28 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Like Therise and Erik here still have the assumption coming from RL -
No, I'm not. And I don't think Erik is either.
Good and evil are completely real, easily definable things in the game. Not so in real life.
Ho ho ho! I wish twere so, Lady Scribe! 'Fore, I once met a Paladin of Torm, one Breis Tallspear by name. He had recently slain a goblin whelp...
Or my good friend, Elminster Sage of Shadowdale... who once slew a sentient being, a black dragon, as I recall...
Seriously, Misc... knock it off.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:02:03
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Alright, I'm getting quite close to putting at least a temporary lock on this thread. I really should prefer not to do so.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Seriously, Misc... knock it off.
I'm nae clear what thou speak'est of, Scribe Therise. The quote above is nae part of this scroll, may'haps? |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 20:07:08 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Like Therise and Erik here still have the assumption coming from RL -
No, I'm not. And I don't think Erik is either.
Good and evil are completely real, easily definable things in the game. Not so in real life.
Ho ho ho! I wish twere so, Lady Scribe! 'Fore, I once met a Paladin of Torm, one Breis Tallspear by name. He had recently slain a goblin whelp...
Or my good friend, Elminster Sage of Shadowdale... who once slew a sentient being, a black dragon, as I recall...
Seriously, Misc... knock it off.
Misc? Erdrick and Misc are one?
Anyway, let's read Wooly's friendly reminder again...(I'm seriously trying to write a counter-argument to one of your points way above Therise, but these endless emails from my former students are such a distraction---albeit a welcome one! ) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:14:43
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Er... sorry, I meant that last thing as a PM.
Anyways, looking forward to your reply, Dennis. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:30:22
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While waiting for Scribe Dennis' reply, Scribe Therise, would'st though respond to quandries of morality which I presented for 'ye?
The first, a classic in the Realms: 'Tis evil to slay a naive, goblin whelp?
The second: 'Tis evil to slay a sentient being?
You spake, truth, that tis easy to make such judgments in the Realms.
Judge, faire Scribe! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 21:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think those scenarios pertain to the original discussion.
Oh, aye Scribe Rupert. Scribe Therise mentioned previously in this scroll that determining 'good' and 'evil' was easy and clear in fantastic Realms like our own dear Faerun. I am nae so gifted; and twas hoping Scribe Therise could put these ages-old questions to rest. But ye are of course correct, Scribe Rupert; mine queries twere off-topic. Perhaps as off-topic as the post which inspired them. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:06:25
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| I canna believe this topic has gone this far. This is really distrubing. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 05:24:30
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Since things have been a bit quieter around here, of late, we have decided to reopen this scroll, for the time being.
Keep in mind, though, that we are going to be closely monitoring this one. It went wildly astray last time, and we're going to be keeping a close eye on it, because of that.
So consider this a pre-emptive warning: keep it on topic, or we'll lock it down again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 07:34:06
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Okay, thanks!
So, as the scroll starter, I ask everyone to chime in with their opinions regarding the topic.
But please, do keep RL away from this scroll! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 15:46:48
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Ok, I hesitate wading into this topic, partly because of the squick factor, but here goes.
I think my first question is: in Drow society, even if it's considered "consensual", is anything really, actually truly consensual in that society?
By its nature, and especially for Drow culture, sex involves playful pleasure. Given that, can we really say that any sex in drow culture is consensual? It seems to me that it's "useful" as a bargaining chip. By letting someone sex you up, you're getting on their good side (i.e. useful in power games). By "servicing" a superior (in drow culture, any female), and doing it well, you become a favorite plaything. Submission of males is not only expected, but the drow females want certain males for their appearance as well as their sex skills, right?
Just as "gold digger" females and "bar flies" use sex in western RL culture, I'd imagine drow males using it in similar ways to get what they want out of drow females. So in their society, it's an interpersonal tool.
To the more specific case of incest that's supposedly consensual, no male wants to be beaten (by any female) for not participating in some party, group orgy, or individual "service me" time. And to their minds, after all, sex is just a tool anyway. Like everything else.
And "consensual" to me implies equal choice. Without equality to begin with, I'm just not convinced anything there can be consensual.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 07 Apr 2011 15:49:02 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 16:22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Ok, I hesitate wading into this topic, partly because of the squick factor, but here goes.
I think my first question is: in Drow society, even if it's considered "consensual", is anything really, actually truly consensual in that society?
By its nature, and especially for Drow culture, sex involves playful pleasure. Given that, can we really say that any sex in drow culture is consensual? It seems to me that it's "useful" as a bargaining chip. By letting someone sex you up, you're getting on their good side (i.e. useful in power games). By "servicing" a superior (in drow culture, any female), and doing it well, you become a favorite plaything. Submission of males is not only expected, but the drow females want certain males for their appearance as well as their sex skills, right?
Just as "gold digger" females and "bar flies" use sex in western RL culture, I'd imagine drow males using it in similar ways to get what they want out of drow females. So in their society, it's an interpersonal tool.
To the more specific case of incest that's supposedly consensual, no male wants to be beaten (by any female) for not participating in some party, group orgy, or individual "service me" time. And to their minds, after all, sex is just a tool anyway. Like everything else.
And "consensual" to me implies equal choice. Without equality to begin with, I'm just not convinced anything there can be consensual.
Well, if "consensual" = "equality"... do the orcs have equality? Or humans in FR? Or goblins? I don't think so, and not in every case - yet there are couples that have "consensual" thing going on. Take Ashemmi and Sememmon pre-Moonstars. I wouldn't say they're equal. But their relationship is consensual. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 16:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Ok, I hesitate wading into this topic, partly because of the squick factor, but here goes.
I think my first question is: in Drow society, even if it's considered "consensual", is anything really, actually truly consensual in that society?
By its nature, and especially for Drow culture, sex involves playful pleasure. Given that, can we really say that any sex in drow culture is consensual? It seems to me that it's "useful" as a bargaining chip. By letting someone sex you up, you're getting on their good side (i.e. useful in power games). By "servicing" a superior (in drow culture, any female), and doing it well, you become a favorite plaything. Submission of males is not only expected, but the drow females want certain males for their appearance as well as their sex skills, right?
Just as "gold digger" females and "bar flies" use sex in western RL culture, I'd imagine drow males using it in similar ways to get what they want out of drow females. So in their society, it's an interpersonal tool.
To the more specific case of incest that's supposedly consensual, no male wants to be beaten (by any female) for not participating in some party, group orgy, or individual "service me" time. And to their minds, after all, sex is just a tool anyway. Like everything else.
And "consensual" to me implies equal choice. Without equality to begin with, I'm just not convinced anything there can be consensual.
Well, if "consensual" = "equality"... do the orcs have equality? Or humans in FR? Or goblins? I don't think so, and not in every case - yet there are couples that have "consensual" thing going on. Take Ashemmi and Sememmon pre-Moonstars. I wouldn't say they're equal. But their relationship is consensual.
That's not quite the meaning of "equal" that I had in mind. It isn't about equality of magical power or strength, it's about how people treat each other as equals. Semmemmon is more powerful, but he treats Ashemmi as an equal partner in life. He truly loves her, and respects her choices, and that's why there's a sense of equality there.
Goblins and orcs, no... they don't have concepts like equality.
For something to be consensual, both must have an equal ability to say no (not just yes), without some kind of reprisal. That's the kind of equality I'm talking about. Not equal strength or magical power.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 07 Apr 2011 16:56:36 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 17:54:18
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Eltheron if you seek equal rights in Drow society you will never find it. Lolthian society is all about power to control others or becoming powerful enough not to be controlled.
If the Matron of the House wants an encounter with her third son before sacrificing to Lolth on the alter, she will have it unless third son kills her (which is very unlikely). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 18:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Eltheron if you seek equal rights in Drow society you will never find it. Lolthian society is all about power to control others or becoming powerful enough not to be controlled.
If the Matron of the House wants an encounter with her third son before sacrificing to Lolth on the alter, she will have it unless third son kills her (which is very unlikely).
Yes, obviously. However, there are people in this thread who have suggested that drow have "consensual" incest/sex.
My argument, which apparently was too subtle, is that there is no such thing as "consensual" sex in drow society (incest or otherwise) BECAUSE there is no equal consideration of feelings between drow.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 19:19:11
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Three cheers for the mods for their courage in allowing this squicky thread to continue. Let's all do our best not to disappoint them, eh?
I understand and applaud Eltheron's point. It's debatable whether "consensual" is really a possibility in drow society.
I do think you can have consensual sex without it being between equals--what you cannot have is consensual sex is when one party is coercing the other. That I would define as rape.
(In fact, I define any non-consensual sex for any reason as rape, and I'm somewhat unwilling to accept that all sex in an inequal society is rape.)
If, for instance, a drow matron wants to take pleasure from a male servant, who accepts his alleged inferiority but wants to earn a favor or reward from her, that's obvious inequal but still could be consensual--i.e. both parties go into it willingly.
If that same drow matron wanted to subjugate the male for her own pleasure, and he went along with it out of fear, then that isn't consensual--i.e. only she goes into it willingly. She is basically raping him in this instance.
What you *cannot* have between inequals, I think, is mutual respect, and without mutual respect, you can't really forge much of a relationship. But relationships aren't really the main point here.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 19:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If, for instance, a drow matron wants to take pleasure from a male servant, who accepts his alleged inferiority but wants to earn a favor or reward from her, that's obvious inequal but still could be consensual--i.e. both parties go into it willingly.
This really gets at the issue of "consensual" for me. Let's take two examples, same situation as above.
Situation 1: the drow male agrees to sex, but secretly finds the drow matron to be loathsome. Perhaps he simply finds her ugly or distasteful in some way. But because he has years of punishment etc. experience, he knows the matron is likely to beat or torture him for not agreeing. So he agrees, and it appears that he is "willing", but is this really consensual or is it a form of rape?
Situation 2: the drow male agrees to sex, but honestly really has better things to do that day. Still, to avoid an argument, he agrees. Is this consensual, or just deferring to power?
I'd say that while the latter isn't rape, the former is. Both are a product of inequality due to cultural rules, so neither is consensual IMO. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 23:28:50
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I posted the following in Alysstra's <"Stupid Question Time"> scroll while this scroll was locked. Time to move it on over here...
Another passage regarding drow incest relates to Drizzt's graduation scene with his big sister Vierna in Homeland. RAS went back and wrote Drizzt Diary entries for the books of "The Icewind Dale Trilogy" for TIDT Collector's Edition and later editions, and in one, we are told:
quote:
Tradition justified my sister's advances toward me in the graduation of Melee-Magthere, and denied me any claims against that wretched ceremony. (The Crystal Shard, Part 2)
So you see, big sis Vierna was making moves on little bro outside the chapel. And Drizzt reports to us that it was tradition for her to do so, and for him not to complain about any of it.
However, I am not entirely convinced that it was incest which was tradition--only an orgy between fighters and priestesses, in general, at graduation.
Vierna got ticked off with Drizzt's refusal to go along, and so, she took him to the drider pit [...] (Homeland, P3:C16). It is possible that she did this just as much out of personal vengeance, for the slight against her, as for reasons of tradition regarding his failure to copulate with anyone during the graduation ceremony.
But apparently, Drizzt confused and conflated the two motivations with his diary entry.
And it is likely that Matron Malice was irate with Vierna, not only for almost getting Drizzt [killed], which would've been a disaster for House Do'Urden; but also for trying to have sex with him in the first place. Vierna couched her attempt to driderify Drizzt in terms of "mercy", and Matron Malice lambasted Vierna's "mercy". Can you, perhaps, sense some sarcasm, there?
At any rate, Drizzt was probably told to never talk about it, because he did violate the orgy tradition; and in addition to any discussion of Vierna's incestuous advance being embarassing to House Do'Urden, any complaints from Drizzt would've constituted a male speaking out about the actions of a high priestess. Drizzt just couldn't win! 
Sometimes, I think part of the reason Matron Malice stuck Vierna on babysitting duty with baby Drizzt was precisely to nauseate her with all the chores and burdens of raising a youngster, and in so doing, hopefully, to nip in the bud those early incestuous thoughts that Vierna seemed to be displaying when she first noticed baby Drizzt's purple eyes (Home., P1:C3).
Obviously, it didn't work!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 00:30:56
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As far as those scenes with Drizzt, I don't think Vierna was thinking incestuous thoughts about the baby Drizzt. Rather, she was taken with him for his unusual piercing eyes even at that age. And the Matron warned her generally against caring for him at all or being taken in by him later. I highly doubt Matron Malice was thinking of incest, but wanted to stamp out any sense of love or caring she might have developed over time.
Later, with the scene where Vierna got angry by his refusal to participate in the orgy, now that I agree on. Again, I don't think it was the refusal of her "lust", so much as it was a personal refusal of her command (as it was traditional and expected); I think she was angry and just wanted to punish him. In a "how dare you refuse tradition, I am a priestess of Lolth and you will do as I command" way. The incest part of that was sort of incidental IMO, as I think she was just generally insulted and didn't want to lose status with the other priestesses or Lolth.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Drow incest
Topic Locked
