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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Which makes me think, was this subject (incest) spoken of in the 3E Book of Vile Darkness?
Only in referene two some demons and a Vasharan race |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That sounds unlikely. WotC tries to be as conventional as possible. It doesn't even touch on the subject of homosexuality. How much more on incest, which seems more or as sensitive an issue as homosexuality.
Ok, so now I ask the question, which is worse? Incest or necrophilia (which is definately a subject touched upon in the Book of Vile Darkness, which I must add has a "Mature Audiences" warning label on the cover)? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 21 Jan 2011 16:42:58 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Incest may not be evil, but it is outside the bounds of morality. The immoral nature of the drow makes them more open to the practice of incest than the good-aligned races.
I think maybe you're coming at this from a "all evil things are permitted in an evil society" point of view.
Incest isn't evil between animals because they don't think the way humans do. It is considered evil in human society, so it's not "outside the bounds of morality."
The drow may be evil, but they also definitely have principles, codes they live by, and a clear sense of what's appropriate vs. inappropriate. Their understanding of right and wrong is different and twisted (to us), because they think in terms of houses and power structures.
They wouldn't care about hurting someone else, which is the primary "evil" in an incestuous interaction. But they would care about being seen as weak, and public/house opinion of an individual (and especially a Matron's opinion of them) is paramount. Self-control and self-governance is very, very important to a drow. Incest, beyond how much it might hurt someone emotionally, is in some ways reverting to base animal impulses. Not being able to control sexual impulses would be bad, regardless of how evil it might be. It's beneath them.
Furthermore, drow wouldn't be more inclined to do evil things just because they're evil. Drow do things for pragmatic reasons, to gain power, control, or status. Because sex doesn't involve love in drow society, and sexual diversions are either for reproduction or play-pleasure, they aren't going to succumb to the classic reasons for incest: poor self-esteem, mental disorders, poor relationship-building skills, lack of intimacy, etc.
If you have low self-esteem in drow society, you're not going to gain anything through incest. Drow with mental disorders wouldn't last very long, either. They also don't use sex to define relationships, because they're more interested in house influence, skills and raw power. Their society also doesn't give a whit about intimacy, so it's unlikely that drow would look for intimacy through sex.
Pragmatics and logic would be paramount in the taboo, particularly looking at increased rates of congenital birth defects in children resulting from incest. Drow immediately kill children with birth defects, and such a child's birth might even be seen as Lolth's disfavor. Logically, I just don't see how it would be considered non-taboo, even though they wouldn't slap the same "evil" label on it. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:45:04
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| Another question begs to mind. How does Lolth look upon incest? And do the other/former drow deities look upon it differently (in particular Eillistraee)? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
It is considered evil in human society, so it's not "outside the bounds of morality."
Its not considered evil beause there is nothing evil in it. As Erik said its a perversion which is frowned upon for good reasons.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
It is considered evil in human society, so it's not "outside the bounds of morality."
Its not considered evil beause there is nothing evil in it. As Erik said its a perversion which is frowned upon for good reasons.
How about unknowingly performing incest? (such as finding out that the drow priestess who's been "whipping you to submission" is actually your long lost sister) - would the drow in question then feel the taboo there (and feel the need to scrub himself thoroughly as humans would) or just say to the nine hells with it? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
It is considered evil in human society, so it's not "outside the bounds of morality."
Its not considered evil beause there is nothing evil in it. As Erik said its a perversion which is frowned upon for good reasons.
It's not inherently evil. What makes it seem evil is that it's often associated with evil race or individuals. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's not inherently evil. What makes it seem evil is that it's often associated with evil race or individuals.
Something psychological. Evil can oft be caused by some sort of loose wire in the brain which affects one's judgement. Same can be said of the incest. Probably a different wire loose in the brain, but oftentimes when one thing is broke, odds are something else might be as well. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:08:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
It is considered evil in human society, so it's not "outside the bounds of morality."
Its not considered evil beause there is nothing evil in it. As Erik said its a perversion which is frowned upon for good reasons.
It's not inherently evil. What makes it seem evil is that it's often associated with evil race or individuals.
Sorry, but incest in humans is an inherently evil act.
Unless you're arguing that no act of any kind is inherently evil or good, you're wrong about this one. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sorry, but incest in humans is an inherently evil act.
Unless you're arguing that no act of any kind is inherently evil or good, you're wrong about this one.
Ok Therise, so based on your opinion of this, do you believe that unknowingly performing incest to be evil as well? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Incest may not be evil, but it is outside the bounds of morality. The immoral nature of the drow makes them more open to the practice of incest than the good-aligned races.
I think maybe you're coming at this from a "all evil things are permitted in an evil society" point of view.
You seem to be reading something that is not clearly there. I didn't say nor imply that. Mass extermination is evil. But they don't do it, as that's going to result to a significant decline in their population, and consequently in power, and ultimately will lead to extinction. No, an evil society can't have everything evil imaginable if it wishes to survive. I only mentioned that such practice---incest---is more common and acceptable (as you'd have noticed Ed himself also said, if you cared to read his reply) in an evil society such as the drow. The unwanted possible outcome of it---pregnancy and having weak offsprings can easily be averted. As I previously stated, they could simply kill their partners or offsprings, or perform a ritual that would make them infertile for a certain span of time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jan 2011 17:13:16 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sorry, but incest in humans is an inherently evil act.
How do you come to this conclusion and do you mean in real human society or FR human society? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:15:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
Incest may not be evil, but it is outside the bounds of morality. The immoral nature of the drow makes them more open to the practice of incest than the good-aligned races.
I think maybe you're coming at this from a "all evil things are permitted in an evil society" point of view.
This would change Drow from EVIL to STUPID EVIL, if they were to allow any and all evil acts (such as mass extermination as Dennis said). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:16:32
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Ho ho ho! Leave it to Ed of the Greenwood, Sage-Master of All That Which is Earthly and Abeir-Torilian, to elucidate!
quote:
For what it's worth, both Gary and I (how do I know this? we talked about it, over beer, at an early GenCon) envisaged the drow of the Vault (our first glimpse of them) as enjoying, not just tolerating, incest and murder and rape and all the rest. They were supposed to be depraved and EVIL, above all else. (And of course, that gets glossed over rather than highlighted in anything official published about them.
Many thanks to ye, Scribe dennis, for bringing this thread to thy Master's notice!
It 'tis also of faire to note ye that drow institutionally engage in infanticide.
Ergo'est, drow gain ev'ry ADVANTAGE of incest, and nae the pit-falls. As 'Earth-science' (genetics) work'est nae in the 'Realms, but traits are passed from sire to offspring 'by'the blood', we must'est say that yae', the drow use incest to strengthen their lines, pool Wedonai's taint, and revel in evil-ness.
Aye, the drow are a fell and vile species... |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:19:07
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| Thanks Erdrick for copy pasting that. And I too wonder where Therise gets her conclusion? Seems like the same train of thought as if someone were to say homosexuals are evil (I don't want to enter that kind of discussion here though). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:30:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Thanks Erdrick for copy pasting that. And I too wonder where Therise gets her conclusion? Seems like the same train of thought as if someone were to say homosexuals are evil (I don't want to enter that kind of discussion here though).
Then I thinkest 'ye might retract thine comment, beforest it raise much flame and ire. The issues ye and Therise describest are far too complex for these Halls. |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 17:40:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:41:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Thanks Erdrick for copy pasting that. And I too wonder where Therise gets her conclusion? Seems like the same train of thought as if someone were to say homosexuals are evil (I don't want to enter that kind of discussion here though).
 I decry that notion! I'm gay, and while I may not be the epitome of goodness, I'm far from evil! Unless you consider it evil to occasionally make your boss feel he's stupid and incompetent.
Anyway, Erdrick, I echo Alisttair's thanks! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:44:12
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aye, but I think'est nae Scribe Therise implied such sentiment, ergo'est nae any should ascribe such to she...
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Thanks Erdrick for copy pasting that. And I too wonder where Therise gets her conclusion? Seems like the same train of thought as if someone were to say homosexuals are evil (I don't want to enter that kind of discussion here though).
I decry that notion! I'm gay, and while I may not be the epitome of goodness, I'm far from evil! Unless you consider it evil to occasionally make your boss feel he's stupid and incompetent.
Anyway, Erdrick, I echo Alisttair's thanks!
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:49:26
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| I know...And I don't think any of us would want to trek on that territory... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:53:40
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Frankly, I'm curious (and a little surprised) as to why several people seem to think incest is not inherently evil.
Incest is harmful to both the victim and the perpetrator on multiple levels. Wantonly inflicting harm to experience some form of pleasure is by definition evil.
And please... don't try to bring homosexuality into this... totally different thing.
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, I'm curious (and a little surprised) as to why several people seem to think incest is not inherently evil.
Incest is harmful to both the victim and the perpetrator on multiple levels. Wantonly inflicting harm to experience some form of pleasure is by definition evil.
And please... don't try to bring homosexuality into this... totally different thing.
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Ahhh I think I see the miscommunication. You are speaking of incest as of a rape type (father forced upon daughter for example), whereas that would definately be evil. Whereupon, the discussion of incest in this case is that of consentual. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:01:05
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Poor editing by poor scribes is the main culprit for these points of confusion. Ed of the Greenwood is the Master Sage of All That Which is Earthly and Abeir-Torilian. Sees all, knows all.
Scribe Therise, I am tempted to bite'est. How was the incest committed by the Earth Pharaohs of the Earth Dynasty 'Egypt' evil?
Was the incest commited by the Earth Dynasties of the Earth Kingdom 'Briton' evil as well? In what way?
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, I'm curious (and a little surprised) as to why several people seem to think incest is not inherently evil.
Incest is harmful to both the victim and the perpetrator on multiple levels. Wantonly inflicting harm to experience some form of pleasure is by definition evil.
And please... don't try to bring homosexuality into this... totally different thing.
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 18:02:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Ed is right, and the rest of the writers are wrong.
Seriously, I say we better take Ed's words regarding this subject. That inconsistency---examples of malicious gossip about it---manifested in some novels is just a by-product of the current lack of "cop" or "overseer" in WotC's fiction department, one who's supposed to guarantee that the novels are as consistent as possible.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:10:37
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This is a very interesting (and a little icky) topic. Please continue the discussion.
For the record, I strongly support Therise's view of morality (to paraphrase at a very basic level: causing harm = evil). Sexual violence, regardless of the relative status of the perpetrator and target, is always evil.
quote:
And please... don't try to bring homosexuality into this... totally different thing.
Agreed. If anyone starts to write a post about that, just cancel your post. Please. We're not talking any more about it.
quote:
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Well, to be technical about it, it's IN ED'S CONTRACT that he *is* always right about the Realms: what he says is canon unless someone at the company contradicts it. And I wouldn't expect a DDI article about drow incest anytime soon.
I will say that there's no reason there can't still be malicious gossip among the drow--it's just not as effective (and life-ending) as it would be among human or Real World societies.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 21 Jan 2011 18:15:14 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Poor editing by poor scribes is the main culprit for these points of confusion. Ed of the Greenwood is the Master Sage of All That Which is Earthly and Abeir-Torilian. Sees all, knows all.
Scribe Therise, I am tempted to bite'est. How was the incest committed by the Earth Pharaohs of the Earth Dynasty 'Egypt' evil?
Was the incest commited by the Earth Dynasties of the Earth Kingdom 'Briton' evil as well? In what way?
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, I'm curious (and a little surprised) as to why several people seem to think incest is not inherently evil.
Incest is harmful to both the victim and the perpetrator on multiple levels. Wantonly inflicting harm to experience some form of pleasure is by definition evil.
And please... don't try to bring homosexuality into this... totally different thing.
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Actually a great deal of the crown heads of Europe were incredibly inbred at the end of the 19th century and IIRC, earlier in European history, for alliance marriages between two closely related people had to recieve papal approval.
With regards to ancient Egypt, I seem to recall that the royal titles passed through the female line, so ambitious princes would marry their sisters to gain the kingship. Of course they also believed that the pharohs were deities.. maybe this made them exempt from the lower classes' taboos. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
You are speaking of incest as of a rape type (father forced upon daughter for example), whereas that would definately be evil.
Yes and there the rape part is what makes it evil |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Well, to be technical about it, it's IN ED'S CONTRACT that he *is* always right about the Realms: what he says is canon unless someone at the company contradicts it. And I wouldn't expect a DDI article about drow incest anytime soon.
Cheers
heh, I was about to say pretty much the same thing. Unless it is stated otherwise in a published realms novel, supplement or article, what Ed says is how it is in the realms, and thus, disregarding the reasons above, is always right.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:17:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Well, to be technical about it, it's IN ED'S CONTRACT that he *is* always right about the Realms: what he says is canon unless someone at the company contradicts it.
So other authors who contradict Ed---which I assume is just inadvertent [due to mis- or lack of sufficient information]---are WRONG. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
With respect to Ed's quick answer via THO, he's both right on some levels and wrong on others. Ed isn't right about everything, even in the Realms (gasp!). If it's not seen as taboo in drow society, then why are there multiple examples of malicious gossip about it in the novels?
Well, to be technical about it, it's IN ED'S CONTRACT that he *is* always right about the Realms: what he says is canon unless someone at the company contradicts it.
So other authors who contradict Ed---which I assume is just inadvertent [due to mis- or lack of sufficient information]---are WRONG.
Nay, tis' the other way around. Authors are RIGHT, but that is IF the information they provide appears in a published product |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 18:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is a very interesting (and a little icky) topic. Please continue the discussion.
For the record, I strongly support Therise's view of morality (to paraphrase at a very basic level: causing harm = evil). Sexual violence, regardless of the relative status of the perpetrator and target, is always evil.
Aye, Sage deBie. But, in the 'Realms, sexual violence is nae *always* evil. Strangely, along with science, rational forms of ethics do not exist in the Realms. |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 19:27:34 |
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Drow incest
Topic Locked
