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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 14:19:08
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While personally I don't care if this thread is closed as it's long outlived it's usefulness in my opinion, I will say I'm more inclined to agree with Icelander on this. Granted I'm somewhat desensitized to that subject having grown up in an area of the U.S. with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates so it doesn't always click with me that it isn't as common in other places. Still, I highly doubt the comment in question is going to be the catalyst that leads an impressionable young mind to decide to start engaging in sexual activity at a young age. Any kid who reads that is either too smart to be having sex at their age, or has already made the decision to start having sex.
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My assumption is that all Elves are not humans (a GOOD assumption to make - most people seem to forget they are an 'alien' race), and are not prone to the normal, biological problems inbreeding has with humans. They are also not governed by humans morality, which barely exists in the Realms to begin with (from a RW perspective)
I'll agree that they aren't governed by human morality. However, the biological problems with incest exist in most complex life forms. The problem is that it limits genetic diversity and increases the chances of recessive traits that cause diseases and deformities to appear. Point of interest; a single generation of incest isn't that big of a deal, and indeed can cause some positive results. The problem comes when several generations reproduce incestuously, leading to a gradual weakening in their genetics.
Though I still hold to the belief that any society as advanced as the drow's, that has the level of magic as the drow, would have developed contraception spells; if an incestuous drow couple doesn't want to get pregnant, they won't. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 17:03:43
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Maybe it should be closed again - it does seem to be a touchy subject. Lets do something more family-oriented, like murdering innocent giant reptiles and stealing all their belongings, or all the other forms of 'breaking & entering' that is the game of D&D. Perhaps we should raise some demons by sacrificing virgins (so long as the are consenting adults), and tear the living hearts out of victims, all while worshiping our Pagan gods.
I know! Lets watch Disney instead. I love the three young boys who live with their uncle who never wears pants. Now that's some wholesome entertainment right there. 
In other words, people can find perversion in anything if they are actively looking for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
The fact that it is mentioned here on a site such as this is where I feel it is improper: Where young impressionable children that are not truly prepared for such subjects could read it. Therefore, my request stands as it is. Though perhaps closing this scroll would once again be a good idea. I believe this has gone as far as it should or could.
I mentioned a 12 year old girl - who was noticeably prematurely developed - dating a 14 year old boy, and a 12 year old boy who looked like an adult who was dating 16 year old girls. ALL children, and nothing illegal. Had my friend been fooling around with those same girls a year later (which s NO ONE's business), THAT would have been a crime.
Both my friend and my son's love-interest were still children, and were emotionally immature, despite their outward physical development.
You seem to have missed the point. You can close your eyes to the world around you, but that doesn't make it 'go away' - it just makes you close-minded. I'm surprised a Realms fan (both Elminster & Mirt would be in the 'Woody Allen' category, had they been Earthlings) would feel this way, given the nature of the setting.
I wanted to make a point that it doesn't matter how someone looks it doesn't mean they are adults, and this is even more true in a fantasy setting. Dopplegangers can appear however they want, which mean their children could, theoretically, become 'coin-lases' and lads (something Dopples are know for in the Realms). Female goblins, IIRC, can breed around the age of five, and ARE considered adults. That means having intercourse with a 21 year old Elven lass should be a no-no, but you can do whatever you want with a five year old goblin. YES, it is gross to think about, but this IS a fantasy setting.
And to step outside the box for a moment - In Star Trek: Voyager we had the character of Kes, an Ocampan - a race who lives to the ripe old age of nine! At the time her character is introduced, she is fully adult female, in a relationship with an adult Talaxian... and she is only THREE. Now, if you actually clicked on the link above and thought she was hot, you just checked out a three year old {Ewwwwwwwwww!}  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2011 17:15:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 19:12:54
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I think we've adequately discussed the morality of teenage sex. Let's drop that discussion, please.
I hate to say it, but I'm now beginning to lean in favor of closing this thread, and leaving it closed this time. I don't like closing threads, though, so I'm hoping it won't be necessary. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Nov 2011 19:17:50 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 19:44:34
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I think the genetic problems of incest occur mostly with actual siblings. I am descended from a lot of first cousin marriages and I don't think there is anything that wrong with me (or any of the offspring ...) We can see in the real world fairly interbred communities that don't seem to have huge problems. Endogamy in minority religious or ethnic populations is not uncommon. I generally assume demihuman genetics would work very similarly to real world humans.
Within noble clans, who seem the most likely to be incestuous, perhaps Lolth might help faithful Priestesses solve some of those problems via prayers that aren't magical and certainly with the aid of divine magic. "Protection from Birth Defects" seems like an appropriate spell to me considering the other miraculous things that can be achieved through divine miracles, I don't think something like that would have to even be a particularly powerful spell. We can see that being like Yvonnel Baenre did genetically unnatural things via magic (i.e. having so many children and continuing to have children at an extreme age)
For the majority of drow commoners, artisans, soldiers, and merchant clans would be less likely to be able to use magic to solve such problems. But I think they would have less reason to be incestuous (from the perspective that it would be done for political and power reasons) |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 20:03:06
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I also think 12-14 would be a normal age for marriage in a medieval setting such as the Forgotten Realms. Specifically once a girl or woman began to menstruate. This may be morally unacceptable in modern North America, but it is a realistic circumstance for the Forgotten Realms. Although generally the Forgotten Realms is cleaned up to be acceptable to modern sensibilities, I think it would be up to your own imagination to determine.
http://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 20:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I also think 12-14 would be a normal age for marriage in a medieval setting such as the Forgotten Realms. Specifically once a girl or woman began to menstruate. This may be morally unacceptable in modern North America, but it is a realistic circumstance for the Forgotten Realms. Although generally the Forgotten Realms is cleaned up to be acceptable to modern sensibilities, I think it would be up to your own imagination to determine.
http://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html
Note that the historical normal age for marriage was the early twenties, in most cases. Only dynastic marriages were commonly arranged at the early age that you mention and it was far from universal that those were consummated immediately.
Puberty in the modern world is tied to nutrition and even to certain enviromental factors that were not present on pre-modern Earth. Age 16-17 was considered a normal age to start menstruating and the only reason to marry a girl before that age were political concerns, a factor in only a tiny minority of all marriages.
For economic reasons, historical acricultural labourers often married fairly late, only when they had amassed enough capital to start their own farm, as opposed to working as field hands or servants for richer farmers. In ancient Rome and historical Iceland, men usually did not marry until they were thirty. The age of the bride varied, but for commoners, she was often of fairly similar age. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 21:24:05
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 23:37:17
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The problem with this thread isn't the topic, so much as our own limited ability to comprehend living on a planet with hundreds of different, sentient species. You cannot apply your own race's morals - especially from another world entirely - to a setting like the Forgotten Realms.
Even in our RW Dark Ages, related nobility/royalty were known for inbreeding - marrying cousins just a mere century ago was common place! People just couldn't 'get around' like they do today.
The topic of the thread is non-issue because Elves - and Drow even more so - do NOT think as we do.
As for the age-thing, most reasoning species would assume any female capable of breeding should do so, and on a planet as competitive as Toril (for decent places to live), this should be an almost religious compunction ("Go forth and multiply!") Goblinoids probably think the humanish (humans and demi-humans) races are stupid in this regard - they understand strength in numbers.
Now apply this to the Drow, who were forced underground, and sundered into dozens - perhaps hundreds - of separate bands, many of whom were slaughtered in those first years, by each-other and various beasties. Lolth commanded them to survive, and not just survive, but to become stronger through adversity, and eventually return triumphant. Don't you think ANY rules regarding breeding - if Elves even had any - would have gone right out the window?
Calling Drow 'Incestuous' is like calling dogs incestuous, or cats, or anything else. They aren't just humans with funny ears; they are an entirely different species.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 00:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem with this thread isn't the topic, so much as our own limited ability to comprehend living on a planet with hundreds of different, sentient species. You cannot apply your own race's morals - especially from another world entirely - to a setting like the Forgotten Realms.
Sure we can. As long as the morals we apply are derived rationally from first principles and don't simply consist of our own prejudices.
In the Forgotten Realms as well as on Earth, harming others is wrong unless it is to prevent a greater harm. On Faerun as well as here, what two people (or more) people who are mentally capable of understanding and giving consent do together consensually and without hurting anyone else is no business of anyone else.
It's only when people mistake their own feelings for moral principles that we get the supposed 'subjectivity' of morality. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 00:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think we've adequately discussed the morality of teenage sex. Let's drop that discussion, please.
I hate to say it, but I'm now beginning to lean in favor of closing this thread, and leaving it closed this time. I don't like closing threads, though, so I'm hoping it won't be necessary.
Indeed. I'm going to reinforce this point made by Wooly.
I've said once or twice in the past that should I find this discussion once again heading into treacherous territory, that I'd seal it for good this time. I'm inclined to see this, now, as a discussion that has largely run it's course, with similar topics often being reiterated several times.
So while this isn't an official warning, I think it's worth letting the rest of the community know where we -- as the Moderators -- stand on the issue of the future of this scroll.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 01:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem with this thread isn't the topic, so much as our own limited ability to comprehend living on a planet with hundreds of different, sentient species. You cannot apply your own race's morals - especially from another world entirely - to a setting like the Forgotten Realms.
Sure we can. As long as the morals we apply are derived rationally from first principles and don't simply consist of our own prejudices.
In the Forgotten Realms as well as on Earth, harming others is wrong unless it is to prevent a greater harm. On Faerun as well as here, what two people (or more) people who are mentally capable of understanding and giving consent do together consensually and without hurting anyone else is no business of anyone else.
It's only when people mistake their own feelings for moral principles that we get the supposed 'subjectivity' of morality.
And therein lies the delimma. Morality is both subjective and objective, as I noted much earlier in discussing the morality ladder in psychological terms different folks stop at different levels of moral development, which colors their perspective on moral issues. Obviiously, drow would have stopped pretty low on the ladder, to allow things like incest at all. But even a more enlightened race might have no problems with it, if it were indeed consenting, and there were no laws agaisnt it for whatever reason. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 07:07:13
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Elves can interbreed with humans, and those offspring are not sterile, they are therefore not an entirely different species. They are not even as different as a wolf and a fox, or zebra and horse. We as humans see them as "Demihumans", half humans, part humans, similar to humans.... Elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, would see humans as "like [whatever e are]". You are making it sound like we are comparing apples and fish, rather than apples and oranges.
An elf is certainly more genetically related to a human than a chimpanzee, but possibly less than a neanderthal. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 18 Nov 2011 07:09:12 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:22:51
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My only beef with the thread is that it got CK blocked at work! Dammit! :)
On my ends, while drow incest is a known quantity in my game and fiction, it is nowhere near the forefront. I feel it does not add depth to anything I write. Same goes with the topic of underage sex.
The Forgotten Realms were my home while growing up, for the most part. My memories of it are fond and to this day it plays a big part in my life. Incest, and other topics, are best left for the real world. I use the Realms to escape. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:34:50
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You managed to concisely express my thoughts about this topic, Matt. While drow incest and other topics judged questionably unsuitable for young minds do exist and are mentioned in the fiction, it's only a mildly interesting piece of background/setting information and has no real place acting as a prominently central theme in the Realms. I've seen many instances in FR novels where it is basically said, or even left unsaid, that a character has been abused, tortured, raped ... yet there's no real need to explore those events in explicit detail, such is the stuff of other genres intended for other audiences.
Vampires exist in D&D, and a few Ravenloft novels have explored them in some depth. But that doesn't turn all D&D Ravenloft fiction into another line of Anne Rice vampire novels which focus on describing the (un)lives of vampires at the exclusion of all else. If I'm going to read a novel which involves drow then I'd rather read all about drow, who they are, how they live and die, what they do and why, not focus entirely on the lurid and scandalous details of their incestuous sex lives. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2011 12:55:41 |
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Immortalis
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:36:54
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I think the apllication of our own morals in a fantasy setting can be very difficult as can applying those same morals within our own history. Even within our own RW those morals differ from peoples to peoples/ country to country even state to state. For instance half elves are a staple of FR but within our own moral guidelines this union would be considered bestiality as elves arent human, Gets sort of weird really.
As for the whole elven life/aging it makes my brain hurt so try to to think on it too much as this can also run down the weird road as well.
Just my 2cp |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:41:35
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| Judgements about the suitability of half-elves in RW cultures would hinge upon a critical factor we have no experience with. That is, of course, the actual existence of elves. Or indeed, of any distinct "demihuman" race with which we could (and sometimes would) eventually interbreed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2011 12:49:52 |
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Immortalis
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:50:42
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Ayrik has it right, this after all if a game for all the family (no pun intended) so to have these moral in would make it hard. Some things are left upto the reader/players to fill in the blanks. The book of evilness did go some way to touch on these subjects but again nobody wants the witch hunts the hobby had in the past and still does in places.
I have recently had a good friend and player have a moral fix as they found religion in a big way and thought that playing would mean he was worshiping false gods by still gaming.
Grey areas are good as it means that individuals can fill those gaps how they are comfortable with. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 15:31:12
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Some female drow kill the males after mating. From an outsider's point of view, that sounds more serious than incest. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 15:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Some female drow kill the males after mating. From an outsider's point of view, that sounds more serious than incest.
At the very least it would make it difficult to perform adequately |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 21:23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Some female drow kill the males after mating. From an outsider's point of view, that sounds more serious than incest.
My intent was never to compare heinous acts. It's unfair to make a comparison such as: "Hey, you like to kill giants with a greatsword, right? Slice through their stomach and all? Well, then I can't understand why you would be against sexual deviance. They're both heinous, yes?"
Call me prude, but explicit depiction of children and/or immediate family members have sex with each other is just not something I feel brings any value to the Forgotten Realms. It's a quick path to turn away future readers and participants.
Where is the line drawn? Do we go for unabashed immersion, regardless of future participants? Or do we acknowledge that this stuff happens, but don't need to go into any minutia of description? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 21:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Some female drow kill the males after mating. From an outsider's point of view, that sounds more serious than incest.
My intent was never to compare heinous acts. It's unfair to make a comparison such as: "Hey, you like to kill giants with a greatsword, right? Slice through their stomach and all? Well, then I can't understand why you would be against sexual deviance. They're both heinous, yes?"
Call me prude, but explicit depiction of children and/or immediate family members have sex with each other is just not something I feel brings any value to the Forgotten Realms. It's a quick path to turn away future readers and participants.
Where is the line drawn? Do we go for unabashed immersion, regardless of future participants? Or do we acknowledge that this stuff happens, but don't need to go into any minutia of description?
My point, when I spoke out, was that any comparison of two persons capable of deciding things for themselves consensually doing something that harms no one else and cold-blooded racially-motived murder for money (what many adventurers do for a living) was obscene. Pretending that something that makes some scribes go "squick", but doesn't actually harm anyone is as bad as murder is very, very wrong. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 18 Nov 2011 21:28:05 |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 22:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Call me prude, but explicit depiction of children and/or immediate family members have sex with each other is just not something I feel brings any value to the Forgotten Realms. It's a quick path to turn away future readers and participants.
You're not a prude Matt.
I'm of the opinion that this thread has gone a bit too far at times. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 20:43:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
My intent was never to compare heinous acts. It's unfair to make a comparison such as: "Hey, you like to kill giants with a greatsword, right? Slice through their stomach and all? Well, then I can't understand why you would be against sexual deviance. They're both heinous, yes?"
Call me prude, but explicit depiction of children and/or immediate family members have sex with each other is just not something I feel brings any value to the Forgotten Realms. It's a quick path to turn away future readers and participants.
Where is the line drawn? Do we go for unabashed immersion, regardless of future participants? Or do we acknowledge that this stuff happens, but don't need to go into any minutia of description?
I both agree and disagree. I agree with what you first said - I find it weird that people draw their 'line in the sand' at all different points, and yet most of what we do in a D&D session would land us in prison in the RW.
I disagree - somewhat - with your second statement, in that it needs to be quantified. If it was in the background of a story, and was used to establish the unsavory character of one of the NPCs, then that would be fine. If it was a major story element - something the entire plot revolved around - then it would have to be a damn good story to justify that (and not using it just for 'shock value').
For instance -
Panteriis entered the wizard's parlor, keenly aware of his uncharacteristic vulnerability. The elderly mage was seated in his high-back chair, carved with images of hedonistic acts of debauchery... not uncommon in a Drow House. A small child waited nearby, dressed in just a loincloth with a collar about his neck. The Justicar knew the foul Sorcerer had an unsavory fondness for child-servants... one he did not care to dwell upon. He was here for answers, and answers he would get.
And that's it - just backdrop, without elaboration. The imagination is more then capable of filling in the rest.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Some female drow kill the males after mating. From an outsider's point of view, that sounds more serious than incest.
RW females behave the same way, but they believe in long, slow torture first.
They call it 'marriage'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5699 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 16:39:15
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Well met
Well despite some very interesting points made herein, having discussed amongst my fellow moderators, I am sealing this scroll as enough has probably been discussed and don't wish this scroll to get bogged down with arguments on the content of the scroll rather than discussing the actual subject.
Thank ye to all who contributed  |
Alaundo
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Drow incest
Topic Locked
