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DourdenAdam
Acolyte
8 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 09:40:40
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Alright, I just finished this book not too long ago. Now, Dahlia seems to be "good" but, am I the only one who found it painfully obvious that R.A Salvatore is trying to set up some sort of romantic intrest between Drizzt and her?
As well, what do you think of Artemis reappearing under a new name and seemingly a lot weaker than he was before spellplague hit?
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 14:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by DourdenAdam
Alright, I just finished this book not too long ago. Now, Dahlia seems to be "good" but, am I the only one who found it painfully obvious that R.A Salvatore is trying to set up some sort of romantic intrest between Drizzt and her?
As well, what do you think of Artemis reappearing under a new name and seemingly a lot weaker than he was before spellplague hit?
A big reason this is the first Drizzt book I haven't bought, is I now find almost everything RA does to be forced.
It wouldn't surprise me if he forced them together , even though he has Cattie dancing her afterlife away, obviously wait for D.
His new feelings for her , if they develop, will give him whole new levels of angsty goodness |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 09 Jan 2011 14:46:24 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2011 : 22:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by DourdenAdam
Now, Dahlia seems to be "good" but, am I the only one who found it painfully obvious that R.A Salvatore is trying to set up some sort of romantic intrest between Drizzt and her?
Painfully? No.
But obvious? Yes.
To elaborate, I would point out that Bob came right out and told us that Drizzt was stunned by Dahlia's movements and beauty, and he couldn't help but stare at her; later she held him by the small of his back, and then his hand; and when he didn't feel like any of his familiar haunts seemed like home anymore, he decided to go off with her.
quote:
As well, what do you think of Artemis reappearing under a new name and seemingly a lot weaker than he was before spellplague hit?
Artemis was disgusted as his past life at the end of Road of the Patriarch, so changing his name might just be part of changing his life. Seems a bit extreme to me, but people have been known to change their names legally in the RW for similar reasons, too.
I think you're halucinating if you consider him to be a lot weaker, now. He's being magically enslaved by a demon, so that's gotta hamper him somewhat. But even then, he still resists that mind control, and lets his old badassery show through.
He's different now, after "The Sellswords". But different doesn't necessarily mean bad. Different doesn't necessarily mean weak. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 00:14:02
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| I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 15:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows.
Being that Artemis is half shade it's more plausible that he survived to present day Realms and not Morik. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 01:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows.
Being that Artemis is half shade it's more plausible that he survived to present day Realms and not Morik.
That and every single clue provided unerringly points to Barrabus being Artemis. That and Salvatore did say we have not seen the last of Artemis after his last book.
Or he could just happen to be Morik, who moved to Calimport and became an extremely noted and feared assasin, is beholden to a red bladed netherese sword named the claw that trails ash, is part shade due to somehow infusing himself with Shadowstuff, greatly improved on his fighting abilities to the point where he looks just like Artemis and was shocked to see Drizzt.....
Oh wait. That theory is stupid.
yes, Barrabus is most certainly Artemis. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 01:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows.
Being that Artemis is half shade it's more plausible that he survived to present day Realms and not Morik.
That and every single clue provided unerringly points to Barrabus being Artemis. That and Salvatore did say we have not seen the last of Artemis after his last book.
Or he could just happen to be Morik, who moved to Calimport and became an extremely noted and feared assasin, is beholden to a red bladed netherese sword named the claw that trails ash, is part shade due to somehow infusing himself with Shadowstuff, greatly improved on his fighting abilities to the point where he looks just like Artemis and was shocked to see Drizzt.....
Oh wait. That theory is stupid.
yes, Barrabus is most certainly Artemis.
That's a bit harsh...especially if the scribe who thought it could be Morik isn't as well versed in realmslore as yourself. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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DourdenAdam
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 03:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows.
Being that Artemis is half shade it's more plausible that he survived to present day Realms and not Morik.
That and every single clue provided unerringly points to Barrabus being Artemis. That and Salvatore did say we have not seen the last of Artemis after his last book.
Or he could just happen to be Morik, who moved to Calimport and became an extremely noted and feared assasin, is beholden to a red bladed netherese sword named the claw that trails ash, is part shade due to somehow infusing himself with Shadowstuff, greatly improved on his fighting abilities to the point where he looks just like Artemis and was shocked to see Drizzt.....
Oh wait. That theory is stupid.
yes, Barrabus is most certainly Artemis.
Lol Thank you. At least some people see it my way. My friend who is a D&D nut but read very few of RAs books... though knows the stuff due to... I guess the net and other stuff asked me to prove it.
I used the shade info, the fact he fights exactly like Artemis, the fact Claw works exactly the same - the ash part - and that the magical thing nearly took him out. As well as Calimport being both Barrabus and Artemis' home. Not to mention the lover part. I hope we see more of this guy, I loved Artemis. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows.
Being that Artemis is half shade it's more plausible that he survived to present day Realms and not Morik.
That and every single clue provided unerringly points to Barrabus being Artemis. That and Salvatore did say we have not seen the last of Artemis after his last book.
Or he could just happen to be Morik, who moved to Calimport and became an extremely noted and feared assasin, is beholden to a red bladed netherese sword named the claw that trails ash, is part shade due to somehow infusing himself with Shadowstuff, greatly improved on his fighting abilities to the point where he looks just like Artemis and was shocked to see Drizzt.....
Oh wait. That theory is stupid.
yes, Barrabus is most certainly Artemis.
That's a bit harsh...especially if the scribe who thought it could be Morik isn't as well versed in realmslore as yourself.
Yes, unfortunately, the person in question(It was not on this forum. It was another) was making it out as if we were stupid for thinking it is Artemis, claiming " OMG Artemis does not have feelings like this guy does!!" and "OMG Artemis would not allow himself to become a slave again. It is so obviously not him"
It got quite annoying over the debate when he tried to convince everyone that Morik could have become as good a fighter as Artemis over 100 years(And moved to Calimport, and become a half shade), yet when we tried to state personal emotional growth for Artemis over the same period being more likely, he brushed it off as stupid and that OMG Artemis would never change that much. The debate got quite annoying by that point. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I read something somewhere that led me to believe Barabus the Gray was, in fact, Morik and not Artemis. Although how Charon's Claw may've gotten into his hands and from there to Herzgo only RA knows.
Being that Artemis is half shade it's more plausible that he survived to present day Realms and not Morik.
That and every single clue provided unerringly points to Barrabus being Artemis. That and Salvatore did say we have not seen the last of Artemis after his last book.
Or he could just happen to be Morik, who moved to Calimport and became an extremely noted and feared assasin, is beholden to a red bladed netherese sword named the claw that trails ash, is part shade due to somehow infusing himself with Shadowstuff, greatly improved on his fighting abilities to the point where he looks just like Artemis and was shocked to see Drizzt.....
Oh wait. That theory is stupid.
yes, Barrabus is most certainly Artemis.
That's a bit harsh...especially if the scribe who thought it could be Morik isn't as well versed in realmslore as yourself.
Yes, unfortunately, the person in question(It was not on this forum. It was another) was making it out as if we were stupid for thinking it is Artemis, claiming " OMG Artemis does not have feelings like this guy does!!" and "OMG Artemis would not allow himself to become a slave again. It is so obviously not him"
It got quite annoying over the debate when he tried to convince everyone that Morik could have become as good a fighter as Artemis over 100 years(And moved to Calimport, and become a half shade), yet when we tried to state personal emotional growth for Artemis over the same period being more likely, he brushed it off as stupid and that OMG Artemis would never change that much. The debate got quite annoying by that point.
Ahh, I see , I thought you were responding to someone in this scroll. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 01:23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by DourdenAdam
Now, Dahlia seems to be "good" but, am I the only one who found it painfully obvious that R.A Salvatore is trying to set up some sort of romantic intrest between Drizzt and her?
Painfully? No.
But obvious? Yes.
Speak for yourself. It should hurt when someone takes Chekhov's gun and shoots the story in the foot with it. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Ecaporaso
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 19:12:12
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I just finished Gauntlgrym, and I'm ashamed to admit that I did not consider that Barrabus might be Artemis - instead, as I read, my observations went something like this:
"Barrabus was in Calimport? C'mon, Salvatore, couldn't you give us a different assassin-producing city?"
and,
"A wall of ash? I guess that's a more common sword enchantment than I originally thought."
Of course, given the observations others made in this thread, it seems much more likely that Barrabus IS Artemis instead of just a very similar character.
Some qualms, though:
I vaguely recall that the blade in question was described as a 2-handed greatsword. Was not Charons Claw a 1-handed long sword?
Also, wasn't Charons Claw paired with a magic-absorbing gauntlet? I recall that this gauntlet was destroyed during a battle with a lich, but I thought Jarlaxle restored it.
Finally, how is it that Dahlia, a comparatively(sp?) young elf, is capable of going toe-to-toe with Artemis/Drizzt level swordplay? |
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Ecaporaso
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 19:14:43
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A third thing I forgot:
If Barrabus is Artemis, where was his signature vampiric dagger?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 09:25:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecaporaso
I just finished Gauntlgrym, and I'm ashamed to admit that I did not consider that Barrabus might be Artemis - instead, as I read, my observations went something like this:
"Barrabus was in Calimport? C'mon, Salvatore, couldn't you give us a different assassin-producing city?"
and,
"A wall of ash? I guess that's a more common sword enchantment than I originally thought."
Of course, given the observations others made in this thread, it seems much more likely that Barrabus IS Artemis instead of just a very similar character.
Some qualms, though:
I vaguely recall that the blade in question was described as a 2-handed greatsword. Was not Charons Claw a 1-handed long sword?
I do not particularly remember it being described as a greatsword. But I could be wrong.
In any case, It is a very powerful blade. Entreri had not yet figured out all its tricks. it could very well have the ability to alter itself like other swords in the realms.
In either case, the idea of a red bladed sentient sword known as the claw that trails ash really points to Charon's claw.
quote:
Also, wasn't Charons Claw paired with a magic-absorbing gauntlet? I recall that this gauntlet was destroyed during a battle with a lich, but I thought Jarlaxle restored it.
Yes, the Gauntlet was repaired. They never reference it in the book. But it matters little. Alegni is a tiefling with a bit of shade in him as well. A half devil of considerable power and will(He would have to be to be in charge of a shadovar army). The demonic blade may well favor him.
quote:
Finally, how is it that Dahlia, a comparatively(sp?) young elf, is capable of going toe-to-toe with Artemis/Drizzt level swordplay?
Well, a very young 30 or so year old Drizzt was able to match a 400 year old 24th level fighter in Zak, and a 13-14 year old Entreri was able to become a lieutenant in the most powerful Guild in Calimport, yet those seem to be taken with a grain of salt due to their circumstances. It is not unheard of.
She is introduced as a very good fighter in 1451 DR The year of knowledge unearthed(I do not recall them telling us exactly how much time had passed since she was attacked by Alegni), and only meets Barrabus/Entreri in 1462 DR the Year of Elves weeping 11 years later.
From every indication in the book, her unorthodox weapon is a large reason for her advantage in the fight with Entreri. He did not like the look of it even before combat because his style matched up poorly with hers and her weapon |
Edited by - Firestorm on 28 Jan 2011 09:37:37 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 09:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A better question would be how was she able to have a child at 12? She's an ELF, fer Mystra's sake!!!
Do we really want to get into the physics of a fictional race and their biology to argue a plot point?
I do not recall any of the sourcebooks telling us at what age Elves can conceive. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 11:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A better question would be how was she able to have a child at 12? She's an ELF, fer Mystra's sake!!!
Do we really want to get into the physics of a fictional race and their biology to argue a plot point?
I do not recall any of the sourcebooks telling us at what age Elves can conceive.
I'll agree with the last line. However, I also agree with Alystra's point. Elves live dramatically longer than humans, and not all human girls are going to be able to conceive at age 12. It's very reasonable to assume elves reach sexual maturity at a much later age. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 12:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A better question would be how was she able to have a child at 12? She's an ELF, fer Mystra's sake!!!
Do we really want to get into the physics of a fictional race and their biology to argue a plot point?
I do not recall any of the sourcebooks telling us at what age Elves can conceive.
I'll agree with the last line. However, I also agree with Alystra's point. Elves live dramatically longer than humans, and not all human girls are going to be able to conceive at age 12. It's very reasonable to assume elves reach sexual maturity at a much later age.
If you look at it that way I suppose.
But I tend to look at fictional races much differently and try not to question their biology to much unless there is sourcebook material telling us.
By age 30, Drizzt was already one of the greatest fighters in Menzoberranzan, and a very mature and realized individual. Assuming a natural lifespan of a Dark elf is around 400-500 years, that would make him between 6-8 in Human years :) I have yet to see any Fedor Emelianenko caliber 6-8 year olds in real life :P |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:20:44
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| Actually, it would make him more like 13. Yes, there IS some official material about that- in Daughter of the Drow, Liriel at 40 was described as looking about 15. So a 12 year old elf would be- what? 6? does not seem likely, and I also remember reading in one of the sources (Might have been Complete Elves) that they do not reach age of conception until around 100. That's a LOOONG time to hit puberty!! The biology is there, if you know where to look. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecaporaso
I just finished Gauntlgrym, and I'm ashamed to admit that I did not consider that Barrabus might be Artemis - instead, as I read, my observations went something like this:
"Barrabus was in Calimport? C'mon, Salvatore, couldn't you give us a different assassin-producing city?"
and,
"A wall of ash? I guess that's a more common sword enchantment than I originally thought."
Of course, given the observations others made in this thread, it seems much more likely that Barrabus IS Artemis instead of just a very similar character.
Some qualms, though:
I vaguely recall that the blade in question was described as a 2-handed greatsword. Was not Charons Claw a 1-handed long sword?
Also, wasn't Charons Claw paired with a magic-absorbing gauntlet? I recall that this gauntlet was destroyed during a battle with a lich, but I thought Jarlaxle restored it.
Finally, how is it that Dahlia, a comparatively(sp?) young elf, is capable of going toe-to-toe with Artemis/Drizzt level swordplay?
If it was a two handed great sword, it would have required 2 gauntlets to wield it. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 23:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
[quote]Originally posted by Ecaporaso
She is introduced as a very good fighter in 1451 DR The year of knowledge unearthed(I do not recall them telling us exactly how much time had passed since she was attacked by Alegni), and only meets Barrabus/Entreri in 1462 DR the Year of Elves weeping 11 years later.
In Part 1 (1451-'52 DR), the text tells us that the attack took place a decade before. Since she was 12 when attacked, that makes her 22 in Gaunt., P1.
She spent the last 6 years in Thay. That leaves us with 4 years unaccounted for immediately after the attack, and before she went to Thay. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 04:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, it would make him more like 13. Yes, there IS some official material about that- in Daughter of the Drow, Liriel at 40 was described as looking about 15. So a 12 year old elf would be- what? 6? does not seem likely, and I also remember reading in one of the sources (Might have been Complete Elves) that they do not reach age of conception until around 100. That's a LOOONG time to hit puberty!! The biology is there, if you know where to look.
IIRC, the age of responsibility for elves is one century. It would make sense for elves to have a longer childhood than humans, but it would also make evolutionary sense for that childhood to not be super long.
In addition, it also would make a lot of sense if a female elf's menses were on a longer cycle through their fertile years (say over three months rather than one) and that it would be harder for a female elf to get pregnant in the first place. If a species has a longer lifespan and takes care of their young, that species usually produces less young than one that has a shorter lifespan. You'd run out of resources too quickly otherwise.
Then again, I think that all of Dahlia's childhood should have been left out until it was actually important to the story, but narrative logic would have been grossly out of place in that book. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 05:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
[quote]Originally posted by Ecaporaso
She is introduced as a very good fighter in 1451 DR The year of knowledge unearthed(I do not recall them telling us exactly how much time had passed since she was attacked by Alegni), and only meets Barrabus/Entreri in 1462 DR the Year of Elves weeping 11 years later.
In Part 1 (1451-'52 DR), the text tells us that the attack took place a decade before. Since she was 12 when attacked, that makes her 22 in Gaunt., P1.
She spent the last 6 years in Thay. That leaves us with 4 years unaccounted for immediately after the attack, and before she went to Thay.
Yes, in Part 1 she was only 22 and already a pretty good fighter(Much like Drizzt could already outfight half the academy at age 20 according to Zak). However, 11 more years passed before she fought Barrabus/Entreri, making her 33. A nice round number considering Drizzt had been fighting 400 year old Zak evenly by age 30 after his time in the Academy.
Strangely, one players handbook source I read states that Elves mature at roughly the same rate as humans, but are not emotionally considered past adolescence until the age of 110.
This unfortunately runs contradictory to the chapters on Half Elves so I am not sure if I can take it seriously.
It also states that Unlike humans, elves do not age dramatically as their lifespan comes to a close with the most obvious changes being a change in hair color, alternatively graying or darkening. Most elves remain healthy and full of life up until their death.
That end part kind of explains to me how Malice at age 500 still seemed like a young promising Matron Mother, or how Zak at age 400 seemed to be showing no signs of slowing down. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 16:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, it would make him more like 13. Yes, there IS some official material about that- in Daughter of the Drow, Liriel at 40 was described as looking about 15. So a 12 year old elf would be- what? 6? does not seem likely, and I also remember reading in one of the sources (Might have been Complete Elves) that they do not reach age of conception until around 100. That's a LOOONG time to hit puberty!! The biology is there, if you know where to look.
I'm about to disgust everyone in this thread and forum, but in the real world there is a record of a four year old girl concieving and giving birth to a healthy son. Best not to think too much about that. But, point being, while incredibly rare, it is possible. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 16:26:41
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Something else regarding Dahlia. She possesses a trait that I've seen in roleplay before, and that I absolutely loathe. She uses her physical beauty to distract opponents in combat, getting them to lower their guard. She is so sexy, that even Artemis can't help but check her out during their fight.
I find this notion personally insulting. The suggestion that men are such slaves to their sexuality as to stare into a woman's cleavage like dear in the headlights during a life and death struggle is nothing short of offensive. Don't get me wrong; a beautiful woman can wrap a man around her finger without problem. And if she were say, an assassin using her *ahem* charms to distract her target so they didn't see the knife slipping towards their ribs, that would be fine. But in a straight up, heated fight, the fact that she has a low cut top, slits in her skirt to show some thigh, and knee high boots, is not going to work. Especially not on a trained and disciplined fighter. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 01:49:56
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Ed's weighed in on the whole "how do elves mature in the Realms" discussion. As I recall, he was a proponent of the approach wherein elves reach sexual maturity at the same time human children do, but in elven society they don't reach emotional maturity until adulthood (c. 100 years). It seems reasonable that elves raised outside of a conventional elven homeland/setting might mature emotionally at much faster (or I guess slower, hypothetically) rates.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
The suggestion that men are such slaves to their sexuality as to stare into a woman's cleavage like dear in the headlights during a life and death struggle is nothing short of offensive
Wh-what? I'm sorry, I was staring at that elf's cleavage. You know, the one with the sword. 
I don't know if you should take such offense to this, and neither do I know if it's really all that unreasonable.
Firstly, you're applying a RL standard to a fantasy story, which in itself should give us pause. Fantasy is allowed to be over-the-top and exaggerated--that's part of the allegory. The fighting moves people pull off in some of these novels are often impossible to emulate in real life, and yet no one complains. It's part of the point of fantasy.
Secondly, let's make sure we're clear here about the RL standard we're applying. Human beings ARE slaves to their impulses (sexuality being one of the top mistresses, as it were). That doesn't mean being stunned at the sight of--OMG! Breasts!--but yeah, you can be thrown off by the physical appeal of your opponent.
As a swordsman myself, I can attest that distracting your opponent (whether by feinting or, in theory, by flashing) is certainly a valid strategy, and I see no reason that a beautiful woman wouldn't be able to use her physical assets to that purpose. If I was fencing a woman and all of a sudden her "natural weapons" came out, you can bet I'd be distracted--startled at the very least.
Heck, sometimes when I fence, I'm distracted by female fencers who are completely covered up and not showing even a little bit of skin. My wife is EXTREMELY sexy when she fences, and she isn't doing it on purpose. It's just the way hormones work.
Then again, it isn't the sort of thing that a fencer (or any sort of fighter) should try repeatedly on the same opponent, if only because you shouldn't keep trying the same thing over and over. Duels are about adaptation and keeping your foe guessing.
As for this specific example:
Should Dahlia's style have worked on Drizzt? Well sure--I mean, the guy's so repressed that you could work him over with a good ankle flashing.
Should it have worked on Entreri? That's more debatable. Guy's solid as a rock.
Also remember that we're dealing with a fantasy setting in which certain races (and elves are a likely suspect) do indeed have otherworldly appeal and charm. I think that leaves plenty of space for reasonable doubt.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 01 Feb 2011 01:51:13 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 03:00:53
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Ever hear people argue about superman and say they can accept that a man can fly, lift buildings, and shoot lazers out of his eyes, but not that he can fool everyone around him to his identity based off of a pair of glasses and some hair gel? I can accept all the trappings of a fantasy setting, but this is superman's glasses to me.
Not to take away from any of the discipline that goes into fencing(i've been friends with a few fencers, myself), but that is a sport, not a fight to the death. And I'm not saying a person cannot be distracted in a fight. The eye is naturally drawn to movement.
And admittedly, I don't know about this from personal experience as I've never gotten into a knock down drag out fight with a super hot woman. But I have to believe that if I were in a fight with a woman with lightning flails, I wouldn't have my eyes glued to her chest, regardless of how low the cut of her shirt is. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 03:22:23
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Breaking this up due to character limit.
Also, what about personal taste? You bring up your wife, who I'm sure is a perfectly attractive woman. I'm also sure I could find a dozen people who would disagree. No offense made, just making the point that people have different tastes and standards of beauty. Would a homosexual man be immune to Dahlia's distraction methods? Would a heterosexual woman? What about the asexual? What about people who prefer heavy women? Or (much) older women? Maybe I'm applying realworld thinking to a fantasy setting, and in many cases that is a mistake; but I believe that the universal truth of attraction, that truth being "to each their own", should apply in fantasy.
Another problem I have with it is that it is a double dose of sexism. The woman becomes an object for the course of the fight, the man becomes a deer caught in the headlights, and I am unaware of any situation in which a woman has had the same reaction to a man in a fight. If I'm wrong, please correct me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 16:27:35
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Oh, I'm not arguing that you should accept it without a grain of salt or that you should like it (your own taste is, obviously, your own). Nor do I approve of the "hot swordswoman" phenomenon generally: I personally think relying on your physical attractiveness as a shield (CHA bonus!) is completely and utterly insane. (Which, generally speaking, is a reason for it to work: the unexpected is often successful.)
The core of my argument is that distracting an opponent is a key part of fighting, and using your body to do so is a perfectly acceptable strategy. It may work, it may not--it should not consistently work the same way on everyone you fight. Regardless, if you're going to tart it up, that very well might distract an opponent when the fight begins (who is as likely to laugh at your ridiculous attire as find you attractive)--and winning those first couple passes might be all you need.
I don't think of it in terms of attraction, really--I think only of the distraction of the unexpected. Going from your own point, when you're in a life and death fight, the LAST THING you expect your opponent to do is flash a little skin. It really can and does break up your flow, whether you're attracted to that person or not. (Also, there's no reason not to check out an attractive person fighting--except for defending yourself from said person or others.)
And yes, fencing is a sport, wherein the goal is not to kill your opponent by any means necessary but rather score hits that simulate killing hits (that's how fencing works), but that doesn't invalidate my point. Distracting one's opponent is as valid a strategy either way--the stakes are just higher when it means life or death. So it makes it less likely that you will try something insane like flashing your assets and hoping your opponent is stunned into making a mistake.
As to whether it's acceptable in a fantasy novel, well, for me that depends on how it's handled. If it's something the fighter is actively doing (equivalent to feinting against a particular opponent), that's one thing--if it's just an uncanny charm that isn't explained as a magical effect, that's another.
The sexism thing is TOTALLY reasonable. No argument on that point.
I do think that generally speaking, in terms of attraction, men are much more visually inclined than women. I would venture that women are much more likely to be distracted based on their feelings for an opponent (this would be the Buffy v. Angel argument). This isn't me being sexist--this is my observation about the way we seem to be wired.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 16:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Also, what about personal taste? You bring up your wife, who I'm sure is a perfectly attractive woman. I'm also sure I could find a dozen people who would disagree. No offense made, just making the point that people have different tastes and standards of beauty.
Oh, that was me following the married-man code and avoiding the implication that I check out strange women with swords. 
As I said above, how attractive the person is to you in specific is not the key--the key is it being an unexpected appeal to your sexual impulses. Which I know can and does work, though not in every instance.
If a fantasy swordswoman is going around seducing every opponent she ever faces which how hawt she looks in her outfit (and there isn't rule-breaking magic involved), then that's kinda ridiculous.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 20:25:36
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I do recognize distraction as being a vital part of combat. And if Dahlia was presented that way and less "Damn she's hot; I should focus on killing these cultists, but I can't help but look over there", I wouldn't have a problem with it, at least not as much.
Part of my problem is that I know RAS is a better writer than that. He's used distraction tactics in combat scenes effectively and realisticly in the past. The scene where Obould kills Drizzt's elf friend by blinking out the flames on his sword, for instance. It just seems juvinile for him to be relying on this. Dahlia really reads like the kind of character I'd expect a 15 year old boy playing world of warcraft on an rp server to be playing, only with a better vocabulary. My two cents, anyway. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Neverwinter Book 1: Gauntlgrym *Spoilers*
