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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
What's unreasonable about her knowingly sacrificing herself? Absolutely nothing. It is perfectly reasonable. Probable? Maybe not. But you cannot prove them unreasonable by just saying they are.
It's not really about just saying that they are unreasonable. It's more about there being little actual canon proof that Mystryl knowingly sacrificed herself because she had foresight about Karsus' plan.
If this were proven canonically, then we really wouldn't be going around in circles now, would we?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed, Scribes Rupert and Sage dost nae want to lend credence to observations which dost nae validate their own. But, tis the way of the Realms.
Make of them what 'ye wish!
That's a little unfair. I don't have any problem with observations that deviate from my own. However, I've some problem with observations being put forward as though they are they only possible explanation, even when there is little canon evidence to support them.
Whatever way scribes wish to play the event in their own campaigns is entirely up to them. If we're talking official lore, though, then some degree of adherence to canon must be asserted. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:31:08
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Thou are'est kidding, Scribe Sage! Ho Ho Ho!
Thank thee very much for such laughter!
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed, Scribes Rupert and Sage dost nae want to lend credence to observations which dost nae validate their own. But, tis the way of the Realms.
Make of them what 'ye wish!
That's a little unfair. I don't have any problem with observations that deviate from my own. However, I've some problem with observations being put forward as though they are they only possible explanation, even when there is little canon evidence to support them.
Whatever way scribes wish to play the event in their own campaigns is entirely up to them. If we're talking official lore, though, then some degree of adherence to canon must be asserted.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 02:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
You have been offered more than one "reasonable" explanation (and im not claiming any to be correct by the way, but would like to know)....you just dont like them. And thats cool, but it does not make them unreasonable.
I don't like them because they are not reasonable.
There are countless examples of people knowingly sacrificing themselves when they knew they would die, in hopes it would lead to something better. Especially mothers(mystral) giving themselves for their children(magic as a whole)
What's unreasonable about her knowingly sacrificing herself? Absolutely nothing. It is perfectly reasonable. Probable? Maybe not. But you cannot prove them unreasonable by just saying they are.
What's unreasonable about it is that if she knew it was coming, steps could have been taken to make her resurrecting herself from being necessary.
I think its reasonable to think she chose not to. And you don't. Im cool with that! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 15:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's largely it.
And I'm cool with your position, Red. I appreciate where you're coming from on this.
I was sure you did, I just didnt want anyone else mis-understanding what I intended.
For something that happened so far back (in real year and realms time) is more than a tad frustrating that we cant have that one answer! (I almost said "simple" answer.....but know Ed as we do, it's not simple and it's very complexity is probably why something done all those years ago is still relevanmt today!
P.S. And how refreshing....a vigorous debate and no name calling!!
Mayhaps You, the Hamster and I should do a debate etiquette scroll
P.P.S. Sage...are you still a fan of Evanesence?? if so i found something very interesting(musically) I would be glad to share. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 27 Jan 2011 16:01:10 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 18:54:25
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| Sage, were I to state, 'Chopin could recognize all notes by ear,' would Ye think it appropriate to state that we have no idea whether or not Chopin could recognize an F# by ear? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
P.P.S. Sage...are you still a fan of Evanesence?? if so i found something very interesting(musically) I would be glad to share.
Send it along.
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Sage, were I to state, 'Chopin could recognize all notes by ear,' would Ye think it appropriate to state that we have no idea whether or not Chopin could recognize an F# by ear?
Perhaps. Though, both Chopin and F# aren't entirely appropriate examples here. Liszt would be a better reference. Especially given the difficulties inherent with F#.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jan 2011 01:04:18 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 00:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
P.P.S. Sage...are you still a fan of Evanesence?? if so i found something very interesting(musically) I would be glad to share.
Send it along.
I'll send it as soon as I can dig up the link. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 12:57:15
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Ah, thank ye Sage. I thinkest now I understand ye sentiments. Ye are saying that if the Dungeons and Dragons Players Handbook states that all fighter class characters, whose level is 1, have a THAC0 of 20, then any particular 1st level fighter might or might'nae have at THAC0 of 20. We cannot know unless a Tome states specifically that a particular fighter's THAC0 is 20.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
P.P.S. Sage...are you still a fan of Evanesence?? if so i found something very interesting(musically) I would be glad to share.
Send it along.
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Sage, were I to state, 'Chopin could recognize all notes by ear,' would Ye think it appropriate to state that we have no idea whether or not Chopin could recognize an F# by ear?
Perhaps. Though, both Chopin and F# aren't entirely appropriate examples here. Liszt would be a better reference. Especially given the difficulties inherent with F#.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 14:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Ah, thank ye Sage. I thinkest now I understand ye sentiments. Ye are saying that if the Dungeons and Dragons Players Handbook states that all fighter class characters, whose level is 1, have a THAC0 of 20, then any particular 1st level fighter might or might'nae have at THAC0 of 20. We cannot know unless a Tome states specifically that a particular fighter's THAC0 is 20.
I'm pretty sure that's not at all what he's saying.
But what I'm not sure ahout is where this line of reasoning is going, or how it pertains to the discussion at hand. One could easily assume you're pursuing this in some strange attempt to prove yourself right, but I'm really hoping that's not the case. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Jan 2011 14:04:58 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 14:44:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense. 
Everyone of them nutured magic huh?
The way I see it , with there overwhelming numbers of uber mages....they were hoarding all the magic. I dont think magic is infinate....the Neth had a stranglehold on most of what there was, thereby expanding it and growing it in only certain directions. There downfall was necessary to propagate magic in new directions.
Tis true. Their ways were draining the magic of the land, and thus, destroying and draining the Phaerimm's underground homes since they were a race who needed magic to live, which is what caused them to emerge and begin casting their desert creating, Mythallar destroying spells in the first place. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 15:56:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.
Everyone of them nutured magic huh?
The way I see it , with there overwhelming numbers of uber mages....they were hoarding all the magic. I dont think magic is infinate....the Neth had a stranglehold on most of what there was, thereby expanding it and growing it in only certain directions. There downfall was necessary to propagate magic in new directions.
Tis true. Their ways were draining the magic of the land, and thus, destroying and draining the Phaerimm's underground homes since they were a race who needed magic to live, which is what caused them to emerge and begin casting their desert creating, Mythallar destroying spells in the first place.
Ah thanks! I knew I didnt just invent that about them...but couldn't recall why i thought so!
Since Mystral was the mother of magic....I think that protecting a race which relied on it might be important to her. Alot of people forget she is suppossed to be neutral, therefore would not for Shade or Phaerimmm or good vs evil etc. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 28 Jan 2011 18:27:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 17:19:43
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If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 17:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Since Mystral was the mother of amgis....I think that protecting a race which relied on it might be important to her. Alot of people forget she is suppossed to be neutral, therefore would not for Shade or Phaerimmm or good vs evil etc.
Where is good or evil entering into this? Mystryl didn't take any sides in the Netheril/phaerimm conflict? All Mystryl did was shut off the Weave when someone tried to kill her, and that had the unintended side effect of cutting off the power to the mythallars that kept the cities aloft. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:30:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Since Mystral was the mother of amgis....I think that protecting a race which relied on it might be important to her. Alot of people forget she is suppossed to be neutral, therefore would not for Shade or Phaerimmm or good vs evil etc.
Where is good or evil entering into this? Mystryl didn't take any sides in the Netheril/phaerimm conflict? All Mystryl did was shut off the Weave when someone tried to kill her, and that had the unintended side effect of cutting off the power to the mythallars that kept the cities aloft.
Just stream of consciousness...typing out loud I guess! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 28 Jan 2011 18:30:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 23:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is good or evil entering into this? Mystryl didn't take any sides in the Netheril/phaerimm conflict? All Mystryl did was shut off the Weave when someone tried to kill her, and that had the unintended side effect of cutting off the power to the mythallars that kept the cities aloft.
Indeed. It's long been part of the dogma of the Goddess of Magic that she promotes magic use across the entire alignment spectrum. That's why there are also evil-aligned wizards and clerics who champion their causes in her name. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 23:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
Indeed. Even their spelljamming knowledge was jealously guarded/hoarded.
quote:
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
In the slight defence of the phaerimm, I doubt the arrogance of the Netherese would've allowed them to consider things from the point of view of the phaerimm. Both sides were destined toward conflict. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 04:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
Indeed. Even their spelljamming knowledge was jealously guarded/hoarded.
quote:
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
In the slight defence of the phaerimm, I doubt the arrogance of the Netherese would've allowed them to consider things from the point of view of the phaerimm. Both sides were destined toward conflict.
True. I just wanted to clarify that the phaerimm weren't innocent passers-by, caught up in something that didn't involve them. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 04:10:36
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I think it has been a shame on how the way Netheril used magic and that it destroyed th
young of the phaerimm has never been explained.
Could this have been the event to drive them evil, or were they evil before?
Speculate now: |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 09:47:41
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I will not defend the phaerimm. They have always been nothing but evil. That the Netherese were hoarding magic and inadvertently killing a number of phaerimm amidst some convoluted magical storms was just the phaerimm's evil excuse at that moment. They get what they want and need in whatever ways and at any time. They are dependent on magic too much, and would do almost anything to drain whatever city, nation, or region that's awash with magic, for to survive they have to. They could have chosen some non- or less destructive means consume magic, but that they chose otherwise already speaks of their nature. Besides, for an evil race, the destructive ways are always easier than the right ones. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 Jan 2011 11:33:54 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 10:46:38
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There's little need to speculate: Netheril already answers this question well enough.
The primary problem was the mythallars — but this was greatly exasperated by unconstrained Netherese use/abuse of powerful magics which could create or change weather, mythals, and mountains (ie, use magic to permanently change the region).
"... [Mythallars] converted raw magic from the weave of Mystryl and sent that power throughout an enclave to provide the magical energies required for quasimagical items to continue operating ... the mythallar was absolutely necessary to keep the city afloat ... the mythallar had an effective range of one mile ..."
Few actual descriptions are given for mythallars, and it is hinted that each one has a distinctly unique appearance. The only mythallars I recall being described in any detail were the (two) in the Karsus Enclave, the (destroyed?) one in Thultanthar/Shade, and the quasi-sentient one recovered from Sakkors.
I think of these being something vaguely like large powerful engines which constantly churn, rumble, pulse, vibrate, rattle, and whine the way a large jet engine, rocket booster, or hydroelectric turbine does. Remember that a single mythallar can levitate an entire city and power countless quasimagical items — it's basically a self-contained magical version of a nuclear power plant or starship warp core ... lots of power. Machines of this scale always generate a lot of noise and a lot of pollution. I wonder if they require maintenance. Of course, being D&D/fantasy, I'd expect that these things can be blown up quite spectacularly when somebody bangs them around or tampers with their magic.
"... [Elves] felt uncomfortable in or near Netheril’s cities ... Whenever an elf was in or directly underneath a floating city, they lost many of their innate abilities, including their sleep resistance and 50% of their charm resistance."
From the context, I suspect that this applies to the natural magical abilities of most non-human races, possibly even including dragons. It doesn't seem unreasonable to apply similar magical penalties to phaerimm (especially young/undeveloped phaerimm) who are within the mythallar field.
"... Phaerimm are creatures who need magic in their environment to survive. Their stomachs and intestinal tracts use a strange symbiosis of magic and digestive juices to assimilate the nutrients in their diet. Without magic, phaerimm starve to death."
This is pretty much everything we know about phaerimm biology. They need magic to survive, they need magic to reproduce. The Netherese (or at least their mythallars) were somehow consuming or polluting this magic, so the phaerimm attacked.
It might be argued that that the phaerimm were only defending their race or perhaps driven toward evil and insanity through their desperation (think of whales driven to madness/anger by the noise of boat propellers). I think it's far more likely the phaerimm as a group were evil long before this contact — if they were non-evil they would likely have sought solutions which did not involve a genocidal war. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Jan 2011 10:53:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 10:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I speculate the phaerimm as a group were evil long before this contact — if they were non-evil they would likely have sought solutions which did not involve a genocidal war.
Precisely.
In addition, they would not have been so stupid as to lead the maddest wizard on the planet to the Stone/Star. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 12:26:21
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quote:
The Sage Operth
... both Chopin and F# aren't entirely appropriate examples here. Liszt would be a better reference. Especially given the difficulties inherent with F#.
Those difficulties are nothing compared to those inherent with C#. I'll confuse this pointless "debate" further by mentioning Beethoven's Great Fugue without any apparent reason or context. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 13:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
The Sage Operth
... both Chopin and F# aren't entirely appropriate examples here. Liszt would be a better reference. Especially given the difficulties inherent with F#.
Those difficulties are nothing compared to those inherent with C#. I'll confuse this pointless "debate" further by mentioning Beethoven's Great Fugue without any apparent reason or context.
Heh. I'm writing an article on C# for a local computing magazine at the moment. It's primarily focusing on the next lot of updates for the language -- and how users can get the most out of their C-Sharp programs. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 04:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
Incorrect. 'Twas stated in The Netheril trilogy that they DID try to negotiate, but upon seeing them, the archwizards felt threatened and immediately lashed out, killing some of them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 05:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
Incorrect. 'Twas stated in The Netheril trilogy that they DID try to negotiate, but upon seeing them, the archwizards felt threatened and immediately lashed out, killing some of them.
Yeah, that's really trying. One mistaken encounter, and then genocide.
I don't recall that from the trilogy, and the boxed set definitely makes no mention of that -- I was just looking at that the other day. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 06:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Netherese were hoarding magic, then the Phaerimm wouldn't have been able to use magic against them.
And were the phaerimm really in the right, anyway? When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't -- they just indiscriminately lashed out, and caused serious environmental damage in the process.
Incorrect. 'Twas stated in The Netheril trilogy that they DID try to negotiate, but upon seeing them, the archwizards felt threatened and immediately lashed out, killing some of them.
Yeah, that's really trying. One mistaken encounter, and then genocide.
I don't recall that from the trilogy, and the boxed set definitely makes no mention of that -- I was just looking at that the other day.
It was mentioned by the phaerimm themselves. And they didn't attempt it just once, but a few times. I'll look for it later.
I didn't disagree with you that they were in the right, because as I mentioned before, it might just be their excuse to rid of their enemies [the Netherese] and consume their magic. Evil races would often favor evil ways, as that's easier than doing what's right. What I disagree with is your assumption that they did not try, because they DID. They just didn't anticipate that the archwizards would lash out at them forthwith without even hearing their side of the story. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 06:12:30
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Wooly, as promised:
quote:
from Swordplay
We must tell them, warn them not to trifle. We learned long ago.
We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so.
quote:
from Swordplay
Nothing works. We tried astral visitation and only drove wizards mad. They clawed out their eyes, tore out their hearts, killed their fellows until at last they killed themselves. We tried visions, we tried lifedrain. Now we've tried direct visitation.
And failed.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Karsus time with the weave
