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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:11:15
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They're really intelligent, and high-level mages, too. Send a simple projection that looks human.
Notice they mention using lifedrain before trying to actually visit? That indicates they went on the offensive before exhausting their methods of negotiation. And causing people to go mad and kill each other isn't something that encourages those people to listen to you...
The boxed set makes no mention of the phaerimm attempting to communicate with the Netherese, and the bits you've quoted show only a token effort, at best. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 15:16:10
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I offer an hypothetical parallel — Aliens start dumping all of their civilization's industrial garbage, pollution, and toxic/nuclear waste into our oceans, poisoning our ecosystem and threatening our species with extinction. Let's say this has already killed half our population, including most of our children. They have thus far been oblivious or uncaring, they have in fact blasted the few humans who've gotten too close. Do we attempt to communicate with these aliens, or do we just attack? And if we attack, do we stop with our solar system or do we use captured ships/tech to carry our retribution to the stars? Let's say we have a superweapon that might assure victory, but only if we use it now. If we choose to attack, will other races judge us as evil and immoral?
Let's carry the hypotheticals one step further — If we attack (successfully) we may discover that hostilities between our two species are irreversible. Perhaps their biology uses genetically encoded memory and they are thus already programmed to hate us even before they're born/hatched. Perhaps their telepathically-linked species is somehow triggered into a berserk murderous rage/hatred by our "bad thinking". Perhaps the viruses encoded in our DNA are bioweapons of mass destruction to them (and their ecosystem), or vice-versa. Do we choose to negotiate/communicate, perhaps hopelessly, perhaps waging war forever? Or do we attempt to imprison or subjugate their entire race, denying them any chance of ever attacking us again? Or do we go for permanent genocide? Which option is (less) evil? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Feb 2011 15:41:53 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 18:33:22
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The Scribes of Candlekeep have been long cloistered in their halls, Arik, bandying the same perspectives forwards and backwards in nigh endless reaffirmations of some-same perspectives.
Neither canon evidence nor logical inference will stymie their self-purported 'last-word' on all things Abeir-Torilian. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're really intelligent, and high-level mages, too. Send a simple projection that looks human.
Notice they mention using lifedrain before trying to actually visit? That indicates they went on the offensive before exhausting their methods of negotiation. And causing people to go mad and kill each other isn't something that encourages those people to listen to you...
The boxed set makes no mention of the phaerimm attempting to communicate with the Netherese, and the bits you've quoted show only a token effort, at best.
Read the quotes again. Those two happened in order. They made a direct visitation before resorting to lifedrain; and one of them was even killed in doing so.
My counter-argument, supported by those information from the novel, was not to justify that the phaerimm's efforts were enough. It was only to show that your assumption that they did not try is wrong.. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're really intelligent, and high-level mages, too. Send a simple projection that looks human.
Notice they mention using lifedrain before trying to actually visit? That indicates they went on the offensive before exhausting their methods of negotiation. And causing people to go mad and kill each other isn't something that encourages those people to listen to you...
The boxed set makes no mention of the phaerimm attempting to communicate with the Netherese, and the bits you've quoted show only a token effort, at best.
Read the quotes again. Those two happened in order. They made a direct visitation before resorting to lifedrain; and one of them was even killed in doing so.
My counter-argument, supported by those information from the novel, was not to justify that the phaerimm's efforts were enough. It was only to show that your assumption that they did not try is wrong..
I did read them in order -- specifically, "We tried visions, we tried lifedrain. Now we've tried direct visitation." That says visitation was tried after the phaerimm went on the offensive. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
The Scribes of Candlekeep have been long cloistered in their halls, Arik, bandying the same perspectives forwards and backwards in nigh endless reaffirmations of some-same perspectives.
Neither canon evidence nor logical inference will stymie their self-purported 'last-word' on all things Abeir-Torilian.
And other scribes come forth only to offer smug insults.
Are you here to discuss the Realms, or just to feel superior to everyone else? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 22:44:47
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Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 00:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
The Scribes of Candlekeep have been long cloistered in their halls, Arik, bandying the same perspectives forwards and backwards in nigh endless reaffirmations of some-same perspectives.
Neither canon evidence nor logical inference will stymie their self-purported 'last-word' on all things Abeir-Torilian.
Errr... the very fact that Realms designers and writers have often voluntarily chosen to spend some degree of their precious free-time here at Candlekeep over the last seven years, to chit and chat about the setting we all know and love, suggests very much otherwise.
That, and the fact that certain Realms scribes are sought out by those same designers/writers for commentary about ideas and concepts concerning official Realms material. The collective opinions of the scribes of Candlekeep would indeed seem to matter very much to those grand individuals. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 00:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either.
The issue that I was trying to address is that you made an incorrect assumption that the phaerimm did NOT try to warn the archwizards, because clearly you did not recall those bits I quoted from Swordplay. It's not the issue whether the attempt was serious or not; it was an attempt nonetheless. To quote your very exact words: "When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't..." Now, that's clearly wrong, as far as the novel---and therefore, canon--- goes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 07 Feb 2011 06:56:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:26:17
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| 30 foot tall letters of fire ... no doubt the phaerimm would use 26000-point MS Comic Sans, the most casually abused font in the cosmos. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 11:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either.
The issue that I was trying to address is that you made an incorrect assumption that the phaerimm did NOT try to warn the archwizards, because clearly you did not recall those bits I quoted from Swordplay. It's not the issue whether the attempt was serious or not; it was an attempt nonetheless. To quote your very exact words: "When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't..." Now, that's clearly wrong, as far as the novel---and therefore, canon--- goes.
And I conceded that point. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:56:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nah, the one above that happened first: "We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so." They tried lifedrain after that. But seeing that it took a very long time for it to have a significant effect on the empire, they tried direct visitation again. And failed. Besides, even before casting lifedrain, they tried astral visitation---which would have been better than direct visition (by which the archwizards would lash out at them by instinct as they viewed them as devils) had the wizards not turned mad. Such efforts show that they did TRY. So you may admit that you made an incorrect assumption.
Well, it is an attempt. But I can't consider it a serious attempt -- as I said, these guys are high-level mages, and quite intelligent. They could have charmed someone and used him as a spokesman, they could have sent projected illusions of themselves as human... Heck, they could have even created 30 foot tall letters of fire that say "We apologize for the inconvenience" "Hey, can we talk?"
And sorry, but if I'm a high-level human wizard, and some freaky looking critter comes floating up to me, I am also going to be inclined to not let it get in the first shot.
And one of those bits you quoted does say lifedrain first, then another attempt at talking. So it's after the phaerimm have attacked the Netherese that they try talking to them. For intelligent critters, that's pretty dumb.
I'll not say the Netherese are blameless, but I don't think the phaerimm are, either.
The issue that I was trying to address is that you made an incorrect assumption that the phaerimm did NOT try to warn the archwizards, because clearly you did not recall those bits I quoted from Swordplay. It's not the issue whether the attempt was serious or not; it was an attempt nonetheless. To quote your very exact words: "When did they ask the Netherese to stop, or try to negotiate? They didn't..." Now, that's clearly wrong, as far as the novel---and therefore, canon--- goes.
And I conceded that point.
We're on agreement on the matter about the attempt being not enough.
The problem lies in making the attempt look "enough," because given the nature of the archwizards, I doubt if any warning would ever be enough. They viewed the phaerimm as powerful devils whose penchant for spellcasting matched theirs; and so it was almost always an instinct for them to distrust the conical creatures and vanquish them forthwith upon sight. Indirect, harmless warning, delivered by, say, enthralled and transmuted gigantic talking eagles, might only be seen by the conceited archwizards as an attempt of some of their foes or some jealous organizations to stunt their magical growth as an empire. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 02:55:26
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The Phaerimm were driven deep underground with their war with the sarrukh.
Do we assume that the pull of mythrallar on magic in the surrounding weave is
enough to go MILES? underground through solid rock?
Far be it from me, but the stated reason the phaerimm went on the offensive
seems far-fetched. Could this be one of those instances where "this is what
history says" but it not be the truth? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 03:09:37
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It was not the mythallar alone, but the mythallar coupled with various magical experiments which resulted to what the phaerimm called "magic storms," which sometimes they blundered into and died.
Here's something from Swordplay:
quote:
Bad,thought one. Words, for it, were useless.Too bad. Dead.
The magic storms come more and more frequently.
More and more the fault of the Above-World.
Neth, they call themselves. Wizards, toying with magic, squandering it. We starve for magic they waste.
We must tell them, warn them not to trifle. We learned long ago.
We cannot tell them. One of us just exploded trying to do so.
Adding its dweomer to the magic storms raging everywhere, and aggravating the problem.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 04:49:51
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| I guess this Netheril trilogy is out of print huh? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 04:58:25
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There's always Amazon and eBay. Used bookstores are worth a visit, too. In fact, I bought most of 1e and 2e FR novels from used bookstores. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Feb 2011 05:05:51 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 05:10:19
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| I'd go with the used bookstore route. Or public library. These books are outrageously priced on Amazon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Feb 2011 05:11:00 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 05:34:42
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Search for the individual books. Each just ranges from $2 to $3.
Sword Play
Dangerous Games
Mortal Consequences
I think the reason Dangerous Games generally has a higher price is because more people would want to buy it, as that's where Karsus staged his attempt at godhood.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Karsus time with the weave
