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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 20:48:19
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| If she knew it was coming, she wouldn't have had to resurrect herself to stop it. She could have redirected it or otherwise foiled the spell, or prevented the spell from working. She did not, so she obviously did not know it was coming. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Jan 2011 20:50:09 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:33:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Indeed. Issues of divine foresight, deliberate divine intention, and such, are all largely speculation.
The fact remains, that Mystryl was destroyed and eventually reconstituted into Mystra. An entirely unexpected and emergency counter to a threat she could never foresee.
I do'nae believe that the Folly was entirely unexpected is a threat She could never foresee is a fact, but ye are oft course welcome to divine what ye wish!
Well, again, that brings up the question of why she allowed herself to be destroyed... especially if she knew what fate was to befall her after Karsus cast his Great Folly.
I've yet to see anybody satisfyingly answer that. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Sage Martin and Sage Boyd in their tome "Faith's and Avatars" state not that Greater Gods have 'the potential' to know all that which transpires on a plane but in fact 'know' all that transpires. Mystrl need not 'pay attention' to any particular individual. We know that all gods in the Arcane Age had this ability as it is presented in the Arcane Age supplement, which developed the Realms prior to the Fall of Nether.
And, again, while that maybe be true, I'll note, also again, that the Great Folly of Karsus was something not seen before or since. And given the amount of devastation it wrought -- both across the divine and the physical realms -- I can't wholly accept that the normal rules of deity-foresight apply here. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:15:06
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Now I don't know if Karsus decided that a year before. From what
I remember reading, I thought that he decided on Mystra at the
very end, when he cast his spell. But I have not read that short
story in the realms of arcane or whatever. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Now I don't know if Karsus decided that a year before. From what
I remember reading, I thought that he decided on Mystra at the
very end, when he cast his spell. But I have not read that short
story in the realms of arcane or whatever.
Karsus had planned to steal a deity's divinity days after he discovered the countless uses of the star, and, believing that Mystryl was the most powerful deity since she "controlled" the Weave, which he needed to rid of the underground pests (the phaerimm), he "later" decided to make Mytryl his target. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Indeed. Issues of divine foresight, deliberate divine intention, and such, are all largely speculation.
The fact remains, that Mystryl was destroyed and eventually reconstituted into Mystra. An entirely unexpected and emergency counter to a threat she could never foresee.
I do'nae believe that the Folly was entirely unexpected is a threat She could never foresee is a fact, but ye are oft course welcome to divine what ye wish!
Well, again, that brings up the question of why she allowed herself to be destroyed... especially if she knew what fate was to befall her after Karsus cast his Great Folly.
I've yet to see anybody satisfyingly answer that.
I could be very wrong, but I thought her main job was to nuture magic.
If, and just if she forsaw the outcome and decided that allowing the folly and her own resurrection , with the changes that came to her , was what was best for magic in the long run.....not only would she allow it to happen......she would see it as her duty and might even make sure it happened. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:44:24
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Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:51:25
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The Fall of Netheril had been prophesized. I doubt Mystryl didn’t know that prophecy. In fact, it’s possible that she was the one who made it known to some Netherese. If it’s not her, say the Teraseer, I don’t think she would not know of it eventually. If a mere lesser being could see the Fall in the future using nothing else but magic, how much more the goddess of magic herself. Below is a relevant scene from Dangerous Games.
quote:
"The prophecy! The sign. A fountain of blood. Oh, and look!"
Weeping, Aquesita stepped over a dead man. Rubble and corpses littered the plaza, but Aquesita picked up a ratty bundle of white feathers. Candlemas didn't even recognize it until her voice came faintly, "Our storks, The guardians of the heights, the wings of Mystryl, our feathered friends. This is a sign, too."
Reverently she laid the bird down, as if laying the entire empire to rest. For the first time she saw the limits of the devastation. The fountain had pumped itself clear, spraying clear and merrily again, but blood spots lingered everywhere like the fingerprints of mischievous imps.
"It's the end, Candlemas." Her haunting tones chilled the mage. "The end of the end, the end of everything. The Netherese Empire will fall now, and no one can prevent it."
Note that the “rain of skulls” was also part of the prophecy.
quote:
Even the feared "rain of skulls" had come true earlier when a stray explosion on the underside of Ioulaum opened a forgotten cavern. Bones and skulls had gushed in a stream like snowmelt, and only then had people recalled that Ioulaum had cut his enclave from the Rampant Peaks, either Bone Hill or Thunder Peak, where tens of thousands of orcs had been exterminated in a war lasting sixteen months.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 25 Jan 2011 03:53:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 11:18:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 11:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Fall of Netheril had been prophesized. I doubt Mystryl didn’t know that prophecy. In fact, it’s possible that she was the one who made it known to some Netherese. If it’s not her, say the Teraseer, I don’t think she would not know of it eventually. If a mere lesser being could see the Fall in the future using nothing else but magic, how much more the goddess of magic herself. Below is a relevant scene from Dangerous Games.
Knowing the nation is going to fall isn't the same as knowing how it's going to fall, or her own role in it. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 13:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.
Well...re-booting seems to make my oc run better  |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 14:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.
Well...re-booting seems to make my oc run better
Yeah, but taking out most of the memory at the same time does not make it run better! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 14:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.
Everyone of them nutured magic huh?
The way I see it , with there overwhelming numbers of uber mages....they were hoarding all the magic. I dont think magic is infinate....the Neth had a stranglehold on most of what there was, thereby expanding it and growing it in only certain directions. There downfall was necessary to propagate magic in new directions. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 25 Jan 2011 14:46:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 15:40:18
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| I'm not so sure that the fall of Netheril was necessary to advance the propagation of magic. It was an intriguing side-development, but with the presence of the elves, as well as caches of ancient magic still lost across the Realms, I would tend to think that human understanding of the arcane arts would've received a kick in the rear toward greater progress at some point. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 16:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.
Everyone of them nutured magic huh?
The way I see it , with there overwhelming numbers of uber mages....they were hoarding all the magic. I dont think magic is infinate....the Neth had a stranglehold on most of what there was, thereby expanding it and growing it in only certain directions. There downfall was necessary to propagate magic in new directions.
Ah, but they were further developing and pushing the boundaries of magic. There were thousands of mages, each haring off in different directions and doing their own thing.
If that's not furthering the cause of magic, what is?
And I don't see that they had a stranglehold on anything... They were just one nation, located far away from a lot of other nations -- who were therefore free to do their own thing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 18:13:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed The Red Walker, nae should'est we focus on that which nae we know, but upon thatwhich aye we know... that Mystryl saw it coming, and that Her aegis comes from nurturing magic.
Alas, such are the questions for Gods, nae, men.
`
Ah, I see. Allowing magic to stop functioning, and allowing the destruction of the most magically powerful nation on the planet and its thousands of spellcasters, that all nurtured magic. Sure, that makes sense.
Everyone of them nutured magic huh?
The way I see it , with there overwhelming numbers of uber mages....they were hoarding all the magic. I dont think magic is infinate....the Neth had a stranglehold on most of what there was, thereby expanding it and growing it in only certain directions. There downfall was necessary to propagate magic in new directions.
Ah, but they were further developing and pushing the boundaries of magic. There were thousands of mages, each haring off in different directions and doing their own thing.
If that's not furthering the cause of magic, what is?
And I don't see that they had a stranglehold on anything... They were just one nation, located far away from a lot of other nations -- who were therefore free to do their own thing.
I think they were hogging up all the bandwidth and keeping Mystal from taking on new accounts
She thought that if she could keep enough of her old customers , combined with all her kewl new clients...she would be banking more $$$....errr, nuturing magic |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 25 Jan 2011 18:51:36 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 23:53:41
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I also don't believe that taking out Netheril would have
been necessary to propogate magic. Case in point,
the Dwarves of whatever nation had built that mage school
with an X (xoctol?) as the first letter of its name specifically
to defeat the way that Netheril cast their spells. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 00:05:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I don't see that they had a stranglehold on anything... They were just one nation, located far away from a lot of other nations -- who were therefore free to do their own thing.
Indeed. The customary Netherese arrogance is indication enough of that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 06:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Fall of Netheril had been prophesized. I doubt Mystryl didn’t know that prophecy. In fact, it’s possible that she was the one who made it known to some Netherese. If it’s not her, say the Teraseer, I don’t think she would not know of it eventually. If a mere lesser being could see the Fall in the future using nothing else but magic, how much more the goddess of magic herself. Below is a relevant scene from Dangerous Games.
Knowing the nation is going to fall isn't the same as knowing how it's going to fall, or her own role in it.
No. All the "signs" she revealed must have had a cause, and she must have known that cause, if not by necessity, then mayhap by curiosity. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 11:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Fall of Netheril had been prophesized. I doubt Mystryl didn’t know that prophecy. In fact, it’s possible that she was the one who made it known to some Netherese. If it’s not her, say the Teraseer, I don’t think she would not know of it eventually. If a mere lesser being could see the Fall in the future using nothing else but magic, how much more the goddess of magic herself. Below is a relevant scene from Dangerous Games.
Knowing the nation is going to fall isn't the same as knowing how it's going to fall, or her own role in it.
No. All the "signs" she revealed must have had a cause, and she must have known that cause, if not by necessity, then mayhap by curiosity.
I still don't see it. There remains no explanation for why, if she knew it was coming, she allowed it to happen. Until someone can give me a reasonable explanation for that, I'm not going to read into anything that implies the possibility of Mystryl knowing what was coming. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 20:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Fall of Netheril had been prophesized. I doubt Mystryl didn’t know that prophecy. In fact, it’s possible that she was the one who made it known to some Netherese. If it’s not her, say the Teraseer, I don’t think she would not know of it eventually. If a mere lesser being could see the Fall in the future using nothing else but magic, how much more the goddess of magic herself. Below is a relevant scene from Dangerous Games.
Knowing the nation is going to fall isn't the same as knowing how it's going to fall, or her own role in it.
No. All the "signs" she revealed must have had a cause, and she must have known that cause, if not by necessity, then mayhap by curiosity.
I still don't see it. There remains no explanation for why, if she knew it was coming, she allowed it to happen. Until someone can give me a reasonable explanation for that, I'm not going to read into anything that implies the possibility of Mystryl knowing what was coming.
Quite the stubborn Hamster we have here
You have been offered more than one "reasonable" explanation (and im not claiming any to be correct by the way, but would like to know)....you just dont like them. And thats cool, but it does not make them unreasonable.
Personally I'd like to see you ask Ed if Mystral knew what was coming....seems like something he could skirt around a NDA with a quick yes or no. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Jan 2011 20:05:31 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 20:08:38
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Indeed, Scribes Rupert and Sage dost nae want to lend credence to observations which dost nae validate their own. But, tis the way of the Realms.
Make of them what 'ye wish! |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 26 Jan 2011 20:10:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 21:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed, Scribes Rupert and Sage dost nae want to lend credence to observations which dost nae validate their own. But, tis the way of the Realms.
Make of them what 'ye wish!
No, I'm not lending credence to "observations" that are only implied and/or which defy logic. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 21:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
You have been offered more than one "reasonable" explanation (and im not claiming any to be correct by the way, but would like to know)....you just dont like them. And thats cool, but it does not make them unreasonable.
I don't like them because they are not reasonable. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Personally I'd like to see you ask Ed if Mystral knew what was coming....seems like something he could skirt around a NDA with a quick yes or no.
Someone already asked about it. As expected, NDA. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:35:24
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| I applaud thy sentiments, Scribe Rupert! T' would be foolish to take anything at face value in the Realms! Indeed, Loremaster Most High Ed of the Greenwood tell us to ignore Canon when we deem fit. You follow in the footsteps of the Master, Scribe Rupert! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
You have been offered more than one "reasonable" explanation (and im not claiming any to be correct by the way, but would like to know)....you just dont like them. And thats cool, but it does not make them unreasonable.
I don't like them because they are not reasonable.
There are countless examples of people knowingly sacrificing themselves when they knew they would die, in hopes it would lead to something better. Especially mothers(mystral) giving themselves for their children(magic as a whole)
What's unreasonable about her knowingly sacrificing herself? Absolutely nothing. It is perfectly reasonable. Probable? Maybe not. But you cannot prove them unreasonable by just saying they are.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Personally I'd like to see you ask Ed if Mystral knew what was coming....seems like something he could skirt around a NDA with a quick yes or no.
Someone already asked about it. As expected, NDA.
Darn....I can't see how just yes she did or no she didn't runs into Nda , but if Ed thinks so I'm sure it is. He is always good about sharing every last morsel he's allowed.
Hopefully it's tied to his next novel or two and we get a peek! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Jan 2011 23:50:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
You have been offered more than one "reasonable" explanation (and im not claiming any to be correct by the way, but would like to know)....you just dont like them. And thats cool, but it does not make them unreasonable.
I don't like them because they are not reasonable.
There are countless examples of people knowingly sacrificing themselves when they knew they would die, in hopes it would lead to something better. Especially mothers(mystral) giving themselves for their children(magic as a whole)
What's unreasonable about her knowingly sacrificing herself? Absolutely nothing. It is perfectly reasonable. Probable? Maybe not. But you cannot prove them unreasonable by just saying they are.
What's unreasonable about it is that if she knew it was coming, steps could have been taken to make her resurrecting herself from being necessary. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Karsus time with the weave
