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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 21:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
But Karsus is not a god.
I'm talking about Shar |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 21:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
But Karsus is not a god.
I'm talking about Shar
Oops. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 21:51:41
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A complete census on the matter was completed by the Post-Netherese Order of the Vigilant Staff, in the years following the Folly. One scribe amongst them, one Heilgur Lothvaer, indicated the following in his report:
There was in the Empire, in the Year of Sundered Webs, 100,324 men who held eldritch acumen which was classified at that time as Prime+ or higher.
The Order of the Vigilant Staff has found that there were in the Empire, in the Year of Sundered Webs, 5,321 artifacts of power designated independently by the Order of Equivalence in Eldritch Extance as Omega+ or greater.
In light of these findings, the Order of the Vigilant Staff recommend...
The fragment ends there.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
The same argument could be made for why the Goddess of Magic allows evil spellcasters to do as they please with magic. But the fact remains that she does. So why would the situation with Karsus be any different?
And how many evil wizards were in possession of something of prodigious power as Karsus's Stone and how many are as powerful as Karsus that time?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 01:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And how many evil wizards were in possession of something of prodigious power as Karsus's Stone and how many are as powerful as Karsus that time?
That's a secondary concern, for the most part. 'Tis the experimentation itself, and the lack of knowledge regarding what it could and/or can do, that was the real danger in this situation. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 01:26:18
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| All the more reason Mystryl must have kept close watch at Karsus. While 'tis possible that Karsus might use the stone for good reasons, that he was mad, selfish, self-serving, and indifferent to the gods presented the possibility that he would put it to ill use. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 02:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
All the more reason Mystryl must have kept close watch at Karsus. While 'tis possible that Karsus might use the stone for good reasons, that he was mad, selfish, self-serving, and indifferent to the gods presented the possibility that he would put it to ill use.
But, again, that's true of any evilly-inclined mage working magic under the aegis of Mystryl/Mystra.
So we return to the matter of what she could and can know about the outcome of the Great Folly of Karsus. Ultimately, the very fact that Karsus was able to cast his spell, and wreak havoc upon the Goddess of Magic and the Weave, likely demonstrates that her foresight was somewhat limited in the matter. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Jan 2011 02:06:09 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 05:19:31
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Or the Goddess' foresight 'twas perfect, Karsus acted under Her aegis, and the events which commenced after the Folly went according to Her divine intent. But tis nae for mortals to know.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
All the more reason Mystryl must have kept close watch at Karsus. While 'tis possible that Karsus might use the stone for good reasons, that he was mad, selfish, self-serving, and indifferent to the gods presented the possibility that he would put it to ill use.
But, again, that's true of any evilly-inclined mage working magic under the aegis of Mystryl/Mystra.
So we return to the matter of what she could and can know about the outcome of the Great Folly of Karsus. Ultimately, the very fact that Karsus was able to cast his spell, and wreak havoc upon the Goddess of Magic and the Weave, likely demonstrates that her foresight was somewhat limited in the matter.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 06:55:52
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I'm not convinced of that. Such a large-scale level of destruction -- and outright devastation for that matter -- I think, would require Ao's "Okay" before proceeding. And I just don't see neither Mystryl or Ao doing that.
For Mystryl to blatantly allow such an act to wreak havoc upon Ao's creation, would be, at least as I see it, the equivalent of a divine-slap-in-the-face and the-throwing-down-a-gauntlet-challenge to the Creator God -- combined into one. Ao would've had to respond. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 08:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
As to what Karsus may have altered, wouldn't you have to believe that Mystryl
would have been watching the most powerful spell ever researched on Toril?
Yes. But I doubt even Mystryl could anticipate every eventually.
Heh, if she really wanted to avert potential catastrophe and stop Karsus, she could have just taken the stone from him and hide it somewhere where he could never find it, or bring it to an insignificant plane and destroy it there so no one and nothing of importance would suffer from its effects. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
As to what Karsus may have altered, wouldn't you have to believe that Mystryl
would have been watching the most powerful spell ever researched on Toril?
Yes. But I doubt even Mystryl could anticipate every eventually.
Heh, if she really wanted to avert potential catastrophe and stop Karsus, she could have just taken the stone from him and hide it somewhere where he could never find it, or bring it to an insignificant plane and destroy it there so no one and nothing of importance would suffer from its effects.
Which would have again involved reading his mind to know exactly what was intended.
Perhaps Mystryl should just destroy magic altogether, so that no one could ever misuse it.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
As to what Karsus may have altered, wouldn't you have to believe that Mystryl
would have been watching the most powerful spell ever researched on Toril?
Yes. But I doubt even Mystryl could anticipate every eventually.
Heh, if she really wanted to avert potential catastrophe and stop Karsus, she could have just taken the stone from him and hide it somewhere where he could never find it, or bring it to an insignificant plane and destroy it there so no one and nothing of importance would suffer from its effects.
Which would have again involved reading his mind to know exactly what was intended.
Which she did not have to. Karsus was mad, erratic and selfish. And she's a stupid goddess if by then she hadn't noticed that. As I noted, while there's a minuscule possibility that he'd use it for good, the probability that he'd utilize for some mad schemes was too vast. Hence, she should have watched him more closely, or better yet, taken the stone from him.
We're going in circles here...So I say we just agree to disagree on the matter. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Heh, if she really wanted to avert potential catastrophe and stop Karsus, she could have just taken the stone from him and hide it somewhere where he could never find it, or bring it to an insignificant plane and destroy it there so no one and nothing of importance would suffer from its effects.
Not only does that again bring up the issue of foresight on Mystryl's part, but it also goes against her dogma of promoting the experimentation of magic. It's just something she wouldn't do. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:25:30
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Nae Scribe Sage. Ao 'tis, as they say, 'hands-off'.
But, 'tis a fascinating perspective!
Mystryl was however completely aware of the transpirances of Karsus. This is, as ye've said regarding other topics, a canon fact.
So, with yon canon fact before ye, canst we nae say that Mystryl allowed for Netherils demise? That twas the only effect of the Folly.
We cannae say that a goddess of magic died; because nae a goddess of magic died! This twould be akin to saying that a caterpillar dies to generate a butterfly. I shall tell ye, using me Eyes of Echs-rae, that nae do the caterpillars die, but are in fact metamorphosed...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not convinced of that. Such a large-scale level of destruction -- and outright devastation for that matter -- I think, would require Ao's "Okay" before proceeding. And I just don't see neither Mystryl or Ao doing that.
For Mystryl to blatantly allow such an act to wreak havoc upon Ao's creation, would be, at least as I see it, the equivalent of a divine-slap-in-the-face and the-throwing-down-a-gauntlet-challenge to the Creator God -- combined into one. Ao would've had to respond.
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 23 Jan 2011 15:33:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Mystryl was however completely aware of the transpirances of Karsus. This is, as ye've said regarding other topics, a canon fact.
Prove this is a canon fact. Give me a source and page number where it is explicitly stated that Mystryl knew that Karsus was going to try to steal her godhood. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Nae Scribe Sage. Ao 'tis, as they say, 'hands-off'.
But, 'tis a fascinating perspective!
Mystryl was however completely aware of the transpirances of Karsus. This is, as ye've said regarding other topics, a canon fact.
So, with yon canon fact before ye, canst we nae say that Mystryl allowed for Netherils demise? That twas the only effect of the Folly.
We cannae say that a goddess of magic died; because nae a goddess of magic died! This twould be akin to saying that a caterpillar dies to generate a butterfly. I shall tell ye, using me Eyes of Echs-rae, that nae do the caterpillars die, but are in fact metamorphosed...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not convinced of that. Such a large-scale level of destruction -- and outright devastation for that matter -- I think, would require Ao's "Okay" before proceeding. And I just don't see neither Mystryl or Ao doing that.
For Mystryl to blatantly allow such an act to wreak havoc upon Ao's creation, would be, at least as I see it, the equivalent of a divine-slap-in-the-face and the-throwing-down-a-gauntlet-challenge to the Creator God -- combined into one. Ao would've had to respond.
That's still speculation. The fact remains, that no canon evidence proves that Mystryl knew what was going to happen. Regardless, we can't say with any degree of certainty that the Goddess of Magic intentionally allowed this devastation to occur.
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jan 2011 00:32:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:47:31
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Here are the facts:
Karsus created and cast the most powerful spell ever cast by an individual. Because he picked the wrong deity to target, Karsus destroyed himself and his nation. That's all fact.
Karsus was not the most powerful spellcaster to ever walk the Realms.
Karsus was not the most ambitious spellcaster to ever walk the Realms.
Karsus was not the most foolish spellcaster to ever walk the Realms.
He is, however, the most prominent mage to ever combine foolishness, power, and ambition.
And that's all the facts we have. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 18:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
The same argument could be made for why the Goddess of Magic allows evil spellcasters to do as they please with magic. But the fact remains that she does. So why would the situation with Karsus be any different?
And how many evil wizards were in possession of something of prodigious power as Karsus's Stone and how many are as powerful as Karsus that time?
Just one......
Karsus. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 00:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here are the facts:
Karsus created and cast the most powerful spell ever cast by an individual. Because he picked the wrong deity to target, Karsus destroyed himself and his nation. That's all fact.
Karsus was not the most powerful spellcaster to ever walk the Realms.
Karsus was not the most ambitious spellcaster to ever walk the Realms.
Karsus was not the most foolish spellcaster to ever walk the Realms.
He is, however, the most prominent mage to ever combine foolishness, power, and ambition.
And that's all the facts we have.
Indeed. Issues of divine foresight, deliberate divine intention, and such, are all largely speculation.
The fact remains, that Mystryl was destroyed and eventually reconstituted into Mystra. An entirely unexpected and emergency counter to a threat she could never foresee. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 03:19:11
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I know that it is speculation. But isn't that
what the forums are for? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 03:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I know that it is speculation. But isn't that
what the forums are for?
Partly. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 05:33:21
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I know that it is speculation. But isn't that
what the forums are for?
Indeed -- so long as we don't mistake speculation or opinion for facts. Doing so is certainly not limited to discussing a particular fictitious setting, but it's not absent from discussing a particular fictitious setting, either. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Jan 2011 05:33:49 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 08:30:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just one......
Karsus.
How do you know? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 11:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just one......
Karsus.
How do you know?
Why, isn't there someone else as per canon? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 12:48:31
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"Netheril, Empire of Magic" by Sage slade and Sage Butler (pg. 47) states that Mystryl was a Greater God.
"Faiths and Avatars" by Sage Martin and Sage Boyd states that
(pg. 16) '(Greater Gods)also know what is happening on the plane that anyone or anything that speaks one of their names or titles is on for a year after the name is spoken.'
Ergo'st, Mystrl was completely aware of what Karsus was going to do a full year before he did it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Mystryl was however completely aware of the transpirances of Karsus. This is, as ye've said regarding other topics, a canon fact.
Prove this is a canon fact. Give me a source and page number where it is explicitly stated that Mystryl knew that Karsus was going to try to steal her godhood.
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 12:53:00
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quote:
Indeed. Issues of divine foresight, deliberate divine intention, and such, are all largely speculation.
The fact remains, that Mystryl was destroyed and eventually reconstituted into Mystra. An entirely unexpected and emergency counter to a threat she could never foresee.
I do'nae believe that the Folly was entirely unexpected is a threat She could never foresee is a fact, but ye are oft course welcome to divine what ye wish! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 17:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
"Netheril, Empire of Magic" by Sage slade and Sage Butler (pg. 47) states that Mystryl was a Greater God.
"Faiths and Avatars" by Sage Martin and Sage Boyd states that
(pg. 16) '(Greater Gods)also know what is happening on the plane that anyone or anything that speaks one of their names or titles is on for a year after the name is spoken.'
Ergo'st, Mystrl was completely aware of what Karsus was going to do a full year before he did it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Mystryl was however completely aware of the transpirances of Karsus. This is, as ye've said regarding other topics, a canon fact.
Prove this is a canon fact. Give me a source and page number where it is explicitly stated that Mystryl knew that Karsus was going to try to steal her godhood.
And how do we know deities had or even used this ability before one of them unexpectedly lost their life? And how do we know that Mystryl was specifically paying attention to what one guy out of millions was doing and that she was his intended target?
Having the potential to know something is not the same as actually knowing it. I had access to a TV last night, and to the internet today -- that doesn't mean I know what happened in any of yesterday's football games.
So again, prove to me that Mystryl knew that Karsus was intending to steal her power. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 18:34:06
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| Sage Martin and Sage Boyd in their tome "Faith's and Avatars" state not that Greater Gods have 'the potential' to know all that which transpires on a plane but in fact 'know' all that transpires. Mystrl need not 'pay attention' to any particular individual. We know that all gods in the Arcane Age had this ability as it is presented in the Arcane Age supplement, which developed the Realms prior to the Fall of Nether. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 18:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Sage Martin and Sage Boyd in their tome "Faith's and Avatars" state not that Greater Gods have 'the potential' to know all that which transpires on a plane but in fact 'know' all that transpires. Mystrl need not 'pay attention' to any particular individual. We know that all gods in the Arcane Age had this ability as it is presented in the Arcane Age supplement, which developed the Realms prior to the Fall of Nether.
The fact that Mystryl had to resurrect herself to save the Weave proves she did not know it was coming.
We've had enough happen in the Realms outside of the eyes of the gods to show that no, they aren't automatically aware of every little thing that happens. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Jan 2011 18:54:40 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 20:33:23
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| A fascinating bit of speculation, Scribe Rupert. Yon speculation 'tis egregiously flawed whence compared'st to the standards of philosophy, but Ye are nae bound to such worthy proofs in constructing fictions. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 20:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Sage Martin and Sage Boyd in their tome "Faith's and Avatars" state not that Greater Gods have 'the potential' to know all that which transpires on a plane but in fact 'know' all that transpires. Mystrl need not 'pay attention' to any particular individual. We know that all gods in the Arcane Age had this ability as it is presented in the Arcane Age supplement, which developed the Realms prior to the Fall of Nether.
The fact that Mystryl had to resurrect herself to save the Weave proves she did not know it was coming.
We've had enough happen in the Realms outside of the eyes of the gods to show that no, they aren't automatically aware of every little thing that happens.
Or her success in ressurecting herself proves she knew it was coming, and she found a way to turn it to her advantage. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Karsus time with the weave
