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Weyr
Acolyte
11 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:09:26
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Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it. |
Edited by - Weyr on 21 Jan 2011 17:12:31 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:14:22
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| Tis' true that Mystyl/Mystra wants mortals to use magic and spread it's knowledge, and Netheril definately used magic. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 17:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Weyr
Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it.
As much as I'd like to accept the notion of "even gods have their limits," I'm not inclined to in this context. As that would make her appear stupid. Not knowing that Karsus was up to something BIG even though she must have felt the presence of that Star/Stone of heavy magic when Karsus retrieved it from the past? She never struck me as stupid. So I maintain my previously stated argument. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Weyr
Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it.
As much as I'd like to accept the notion of "even gods have their limits," I'm not inclined to in this context. As that would make her appear stupid. Not knowing that Karsus was up to something BIG even though she must have felt the presence of that Star/Stone of heavy magic when Karsus retrieved it from the past? She never struck me as stupid. So I maintain my previously stated argument.
Just because she sensed it's presence didn't mean she knew what he wanted to do with it. Unless you're now going to suggest that she's stupid for failing to read his mind. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 19:35:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Weyr
Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it.
As much as I'd like to accept the notion of "even gods have their limits," I'm not inclined to in this context. As that would make her appear stupid. Not knowing that Karsus was up to something BIG even though she must have felt the presence of that Star/Stone of heavy magic when Karsus retrieved it from the past? She never struck me as stupid. So I maintain my previously stated argument.
Just because she sensed it's presence didn't mean she knew what he wanted to do with it. Unless you're now going to suggest that she's stupid for failing to read his mind.
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 20:50:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so.
How did she know he was going to put it to ill use? Without reading his mind, there's nothing to say he wasn't planning on using it against the phaerimm, or simply continuing to study it.
She couldn't have known his intentions without reading his mind. Just because someone has the potential to put something to ill use doesn't mean they will -- even a rock could be either a tool or a weapon. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 21:19:10
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| What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 21:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so.
Aye, but Mystryl was aware of the portfolio effecting nature of Kasus' Folly. Mystryl was, indeed, fully aware of what was to be (as a Greater Goddess, she always does). She knew full-well that Karsus would destroy Netheril with his attempt, and allowed him to do so.
Aye, for some reason, the lesson was lost on fell Netheril's population...
How did she know he was going to put it to ill use? Without reading his mind, there's nothing to say he wasn't planning on using it against the phaerimm, or simply continuing to study it.
She couldn't have known his intentions without reading his mind. Just because someone has the potential to put something to ill use doesn't mean they will -- even a rock could be either a tool or a weapon.
The Goddess did indeed know Karsus' intentions.
Aye, but Mystryl was aware of the portfolio effecting nature of Kasus' Folly. Mystryl was, indeed, fully aware of what was to be (as a Greater Goddess, she always does). She knew full-well that Karsus would destroy Netheril with his attempt, and allowed him to do so.
Aye, for some reason, the lesson was lost on fell Netheril's population... |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 21:42:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 22:26:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
You mean like the Sundering, which was also allowed to happen? It's not her job to keep people from being stupid. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jan 2011 22:27:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 22:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so.
Aye, but Mystryl was aware of the portfolio effecting nature of Kasus' Folly. Mystryl was, indeed, fully aware of what was to be (as a Greater Goddess, she always does). She knew full-well that Karsus would destroy Netheril with his attempt, and allowed him to do so.
Aye, for some reason, the lesson was lost on fell Netheril's population...
How did she know he was going to put it to ill use? Without reading his mind, there's nothing to say he wasn't planning on using it against the phaerimm, or simply continuing to study it.
She couldn't have known his intentions without reading his mind. Just because someone has the potential to put something to ill use doesn't mean they will -- even a rock could be either a tool or a weapon.
The Goddess did indeed know Karsus' intentions.
Aye, but Mystryl was aware of the portfolio effecting nature of Kasus' Folly. Mystryl was, indeed, fully aware of what was to be (as a Greater Goddess, she always does). She knew full-well that Karsus would destroy Netheril with his attempt, and allowed him to do so.
Aye, for some reason, the lesson was lost on fell Netheril's population...
So you're saying that she knew what was coming, and allowed the Weave to nearly be destroyed? She allowed someone to steal her power and cause her death? 
I'd really love to see some canon info backing that up. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jan 2011 22:29:29 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 22:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so.
Aye, but Mystryl was aware of the portfolio effecting nature of Kasus' Folly. Mystryl was, indeed, fully aware of what was to be (as a Greater Goddess, she always does). She knew full-well that Karsus would destroy Netheril with his attempt, and allowed him to do so.
Aye, for some reason, the lesson was lost on fell Netheril's population...
How did she know he was going to put it to ill use? Without reading his mind, there's nothing to say he wasn't planning on using it against the phaerimm, or simply continuing to study it.
She couldn't have known his intentions without reading his mind. Just because someone has the potential to put something to ill use doesn't mean they will -- even a rock could be either a tool or a weapon.
The Goddess did indeed know Karsus' intentions.
Aye, but Mystryl was aware of the portfolio effecting nature of Kasus' Folly. Mystryl was, indeed, fully aware of what was to be (as a Greater Goddess, she always does). She knew full-well that Karsus would destroy Netheril with his attempt, and allowed him to do so.
Aye, for some reason, the lesson was lost on fell Netheril's population...
So you're saying that she knew what was coming, and allowed the Weave to nearly be destroyed? She allowed someone to steal her power and cause her death?
I'd really love to see some canon info backing that up.
Ye. Deities know their own futures, Scribe Rupert.
Was the Weave destroyed?
(and The One True Spell knew it would not be)
Did Karsus steal her power?
(and The One True Spell knew he would not)
Did Karsus cause her death?
(and The One True Spell knew he would not)
The answers to the above questions is "Nae". |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 23:01:27 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 23:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
You mean like the Sundering, which was also allowed to happen? It's not her job to keep people from being stupid.
I disagree. Prayers sustain the gods, except Ao. Kill all the worshippers, and you kill all the gods. She could ignore a mortal's stupidity if that one mortal imperiled just one or two others. But to ignore someone who had the potential to nuke the world? Again, I don't think so. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 23:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
You mean like the Sundering, which was also allowed to happen? It's not her job to keep people from being stupid.
I disagree. Prayers sustain the gods, except Ao. Kill all the worshippers, and you kill all the gods. She could ignore a mortal's stupidity if that one mortal imperiled just one or two others. But to ignore someone who had the potential to nuke the world? Again, I don't think so.
But Karsus did not have any more potential to 'nuke' (I am nae familiar with the word...) the world than did any other mortal. Nor did Karsus imperil the world.
The One True Spell is All. |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 23:06:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 23:17:01
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| You seem to have missed a very important component of my argument: the Stone he retrieved from the past. And of course, Karsus himself. Combine the stone's magic and Karsus's power and you'll have a hundred nukes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 23:22:58
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I missed it nae, Scribe Dennis. Mystra, omnipresent, from the apparent 'now' was extant in the 'then'. At all points in the great unfolding of time, May the Guardians Ward Us, The One True Spell was aware of Karsus, his Stone, and All.
She watches over us still.
Praise the Goddess, Mother of Mysteries.
Praise the One True Spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You seem to have missed a very important component of my argument: the Stone he retrieved from the past. And of course, Karsus himself. Combine the stone's magic and Karsus's power and you'll have a hundred nukes.
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 21 Jan 2011 23:23:58 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:12:23
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Here's a thought:
Karsus didn't kill Mystral, maybe his spell just stole the
"interface" (going into Markustay explanation of a sentient artifact
)of the Weave from her and attached to himself.
Maybe the whole death/rebirth as Mystra was just "how the
story was explained to mortal who shouldn't know things about
the gods anyway". |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Weyr
Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it.
As much as I'd like to accept the notion of "even gods have their limits," I'm not inclined to in this context. As that would make her appear stupid. Not knowing that Karsus was up to something BIG even though she must have felt the presence of that Star/Stone of heavy magic when Karsus retrieved it from the past? She never struck me as stupid. So I maintain my previously stated argument.
Eh. There's a difference between knowing something *might* happen and knowing when it *will* happen. I've always felt that the Great Folly of Karsus falls somewhere in-between. Mystryl simply wasn't prepared for the devastating impact -- because a) it was something she'd never encountered before, and b) it threatened the very foundation of the Weave itself. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Weyr
Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it.
As much as I'd like to accept the notion of "even gods have their limits," I'm not inclined to in this context. As that would make her appear stupid. Not knowing that Karsus was up to something BIG even though she must have felt the presence of that Star/Stone of heavy magic when Karsus retrieved it from the past? She never struck me as stupid. So I maintain my previously stated argument.
Just because she sensed it's presence didn't mean she knew what he wanted to do with it. Unless you're now going to suggest that she's stupid for failing to read his mind.
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so.
You've made a mistake here, friend Dennis, in applying RW-thinking/logic to a fantasy setting. As Ed has said in the past, the differences in reality between Earth and Toril must be taken into account. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
The same argument could be made for why the Goddess of Magic allows evil spellcasters to do as they please with magic. But the fact remains that she does. So why would the situation with Karsus be any different? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
You mean like the Sundering, which was also allowed to happen? It's not her job to keep people from being stupid.
I disagree. Prayers sustain the gods, except Ao. Kill all the worshippers, and you kill all the gods. She could ignore a mortal's stupidity if that one mortal imperiled just one or two others. But to ignore someone who had the potential to nuke the world? Again, I don't think so.
Where has this conception of ignorance on Mystryl's part come from, Dennis? I'm curious.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 02:14:13
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A diety is able to see a number of weeks into the future as it has in
divine rank. Ergo, Mystral new what was coming, because she allready
seen it. Now, this leads to the conclusion that she wanted the event
to happen.
Now the why, its all speculation. I suspect that she couldn't make alterations
to the Weave, like restricting 10th level spells and above until some event
caused some type of damage to the Weave. Once that happened, she altered herself,
the Weave, and created the restrictions we see. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 02:37:21
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
A diety is able to see a number of weeks into the future as it has in
divine rank. Ergo, Mystral new what was coming, because she allready
seen it. Now, this leads to the conclusion that she wanted the event
to happen.
Even so, you're assuming a great deal about the event itself, and what a deity can learn from it.
I've never been one to put too much stock into that aspect of deityhood anyway. Since we know the Temporal Prime can be as finicky as it needs, or even wants, to be, I'd always assumed that what a deity can perceive of the future, isn't necessarily what *will* always happen.
And for all we know, Mystryl did have some foresight into what Karsus had planned. But what she saw, maybe wasn't what Karsus ended up enacting. Perhaps he altered his plans at the last minute, or changed some fundamental element of his spell that entirely changed the outcome. And no amount of deity-based foresight can compensate for a whimsical change made by a mortal. I don't believe even a regular deity can see every possible outcome of every possible moment. I'd ascribe that ability to creator-level gods only, like Ao. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 04:42:39
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Well, we know that Alaundo and Khelben has prophetic visions of the future,
and Mystra did show Khelben people and events that would be around
hundreds of years in the future. So, it would be reasonable to assume
that she had the gift of foresight.
As to what Karsus may have altered, wouldn't you have to believe that Mystryl
would have been watching the most powerful spell ever researched on Toril?
She sometimes grants visions and omens to small pipsqueak casters, its just
stand to reason in my mind that she would be interested to watch.
She would have seen that, unless there was a super emergency to the Weave in
a different direction at the same time that he was casting.
For what its worth, I wish Karsus would have chosen Jergal. I'd like to have
Karsus still around in the Realms. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 05:59:43
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
For what its worth, I wish Karsus would have chosen Jergal. I'd like to have
Karsus still around in the Realms.
You are not alone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 06:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
As to what Karsus may have altered, wouldn't you have to believe that Mystryl
would have been watching the most powerful spell ever researched on Toril?
Yes. But I doubt even Mystryl could anticipate every eventually. And I sincerely doubt even she could perceive every possible outcome of an arcane spell so profound and so new, as to be able to determine its exact result.
And let's not dismiss the fact that the various Goddesses of Magic have often encouraged the experimentation of magic. There may have actually been a part of Mystryl's divine essence, that was intrigued by what the Great Folly of Karsus would bring.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 08:49:42
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
A diety is able to see a number of weeks into the future as it has in divine rank. Ergo, Mystral new what was coming, because she allready seen it. Now, this leads to the conclusion that she wanted the event to happen.
Not if another deity of similar power and the portfolio of secrets wants to hide it |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 09:12:46
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| But Karsus is not a god. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 09:29:30
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| Having reread all my previous posts in this discussion, I realized I forgot to raise one possibility which was and still is one of the flaws of the gods: OVERCONFIDENCE. Especially when dealing with mere mortals. Maybe Mystryl forsaw Karsus's attempt, but did not prepare for it, dismissing it as plain child's play, overconfident that her magical arsenal was more than enough to thwart the mad archwizard's goal---only to learn too late that Karsus's spell was beyond her; that her last resort was to "reboot" herself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 21:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What possible good use did she think Karsus could have had in mind? Karsus had Einstein's genius but has the attitude of a 7-year old. Irresponsible, careless, and often went about in tantrum. Even if she postulated that Karsus might use it against the phaerrim, that it was KARSUS who would use it was potential problem. There are a lot of possible effects of the stone's magic while effectively wiping out the phaerrim: 1.)It could have destroyed an entire region, including the people inhabiting it; 2.) torn a huge hole in the Weave Mystryl herself would find difficult to repair; 3.) or worst, if Karsus miscalculated, caused a gigantic explosion that would annihilate half or the entire Faerun. Yes, the stone could simply be a tool. But the magic it contained and the person who possessed it were both too big a potential for disaster that could and should not have been ignored.
The same argument could be made for why the Goddess of Magic allows evil spellcasters to do as they please with magic. But the fact remains that she does. So why would the situation with Karsus be any different?
And how many evil wizards were in possession of something of prodigious power as Karsus's Stone and how many are as powerful as Karsus that time? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 21:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Weyr
Uhm. What? As was previously stated, Mystryl had no intention of destroying Netheril. The whole implied idea was that she lost control of the Weave, and could only shut it down in order to minimize damage. More preoccupied with keeping the Realms intact. Also keep in mind that her power is greatly divided by Ao's order--likely, she could have shot Karsus down if she were at full power. Or perhaps the magical backlash would have been that much greater.
As far as personally intervening, even gods are capable of making mistakes or overlooking details. Nor does she involve herself in the affairs of every follower. After all..it would be one thing to obtain the spell--quite another to have the hubris to use it. In any case, she learned her lesson after the Folly, and tossed the spell where no one can reach it.
As much as I'd like to accept the notion of "even gods have their limits," I'm not inclined to in this context. As that would make her appear stupid. Not knowing that Karsus was up to something BIG even though she must have felt the presence of that Star/Stone of heavy magic when Karsus retrieved it from the past? She never struck me as stupid. So I maintain my previously stated argument.
Just because she sensed it's presence didn't mean she knew what he wanted to do with it. Unless you're now going to suggest that she's stupid for failing to read his mind.
Think in RW. Hypothetically, when the US finds out that Japan has been hiding nuclear weapons, would the US government simply stand idle and wait till the Japanese bomb whatever country or territory they want to completely erase from the map? Karsus's stone was like a nuke, perhaps a hundred nukes combined. Surely Mystryl couldn't have ignored it? She should have done something BEFORE it was put to ill use. Sure, she's encouraging people to use magic as often and as much as they could. But to the point of possibly destroying realms or an entire continent? I don't think so.
You've made a mistake here, friend Dennis, in applying RW-thinking/logic to a fantasy setting. As Ed has said in the past, the differences in reality between Earth and Toril must be taken into account.
The two worlds are undoubtedly different. But the "threat" I mentioned, though different in nature, is equally catastrophic to both. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 22 Jan 2011 21:33:21 |
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Karsus time with the weave
