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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 16:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, has he actually run this character yet? If he hasn't, then it'll be hard to say Helm's already got it out for him.
True. And of course he may role-play the character completly different than as the OP suggested. I am interested to see what transpires. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 16:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, has he actually run this character yet? If he hasn't, then it'll be hard to say Helm's already got it out for him.
True. And of course he may role-play the character completly different than as the OP suggested. I am interested to see what transpires.
Well, if his stated attitude is as the OP described, then the OP is still well within his rights to say it's not in keeping with Helm's teachings. Even if it's pulling the player aside beforehand and saying Helm isn't going to like that, it's still something that should be communicated. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 19:28:45
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Well, certainly - that's part of the character background discussion. "You've learned over the last 9 levels that for the most part Helm doesn't like wusses. He doesn't mind the occasional ill-contrived demon-worshipping plot, but if you're gonna go for that, choose Neverwinter as a hometown." That's pretty important to go over, so that when he ends up playing the Brave and Bold Sir Robin, it all makes sense. Helm's noticed a dramatic change in the behavior of relatively important cleric in his faith, so things become interesting.
The "there's no way you would have gotten to your level acting like that" speech is best covered before the behavior comes in, not in the middle of a combat.
But, I do want to reiterate that it's better to, once it's all on the table, not have immediate blowback from every single one of his actions followed by a "Helm takes away 3 turn undeads from you today for not charging." Finish the combat and the next day tell him he's down 1 turn undead attempt, etc. Have a little lag, both for punishment from the god and restoration.
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 19:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
But, I do want to reiterate that it's better to, once it's all on the table, not have immediate blowback from every single one of his actions followed by a "Helm takes away 3 turn undeads from you today for not charging." Finish the combat and the next day tell him he's down 1 turn undead attempt, etc. Have a little lag, both for punishment from the god and restoration.
Oh, I know. I don't do that kind of thing.
Unless characters recommend strategy when they are dead, held, feebleminded, etc. (they used to do that a lot I'm afraid). Only thing that got 'em to stop was to immediately disallow whatever action they suggested.
Originally I took away XP, but it got so bad, they were close to coming out negative in some encounters! |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 21:12:38
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| Yeah, I can imagine myself sacrificing the XP to save the group. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 04:11:07
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@ Diffan: I've never seen Drizzt use his darkness or fairie-fire more than once or twice in an entire battle, much less using them "willy-nilly" in the novels as you suggested. I can remember several specific instances where he used one or the other only once in an entire book. Likewise, I don't know which books you've been reading, but I've seen even Elminster run out of magic in the past. But that's all a topic for another thread, methinks. The point is, given the feats, etc the player seems to be using, he appears to have more turn attempts than he should, or worse yet, has somehow managed to give himself a feat or other ability he might not qualify for. Most of us are pretty honest when we create characters, but one has to question the honesty of a player who is so obviously looking for loopholes or other ways to "cheat" at the game.
Jorin, you might want to consider going over the character sheet with a fine-toothed comb before even allowing the player at the table, and perhaps with any other PC he might decide to use instead. I'm sorry to sound so cynical, but something about this build just sounds fishy to me. It may not actually break the rules, but it's clearly an attempt to "win" at the expense of others at the table, even if only by not being a "team player". |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 19:28:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ Diffan: I've never seen Drizzt use his darkness or fairie-fire more than once or twice in an entire battle, much less using them "willy-nilly" in the novels as you suggested. I can remember several specific instances where he used one or the other only once in an entire book. Likewise, I don't know which books you've been reading, but I've seen even Elminster run out of magic in the past.
The Lone Drow, when Drizzt takes out an Orc encampment, he uses his Darkness a few times in a single battle. Drow can, as per the Monster Manual, use darkness, faerie fire, dancing lights 1/day. There is a feat that allows Drow to use their SLAs more often, though that supplement didn't come out until after the novel.
But I'm perfectly fine with that, as Drizzt is NOT a normal Drow and often does things that no mere PC can accomplish. That's what makes him special, the fact that he defies the 'rules'. This happens quite often in FR novels, whether or not it's spell usage, class abilities, or a description that makes you think of a specific feat they are not bound by a set of rules because there are not rules to follow.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The point is, given the feats, etc the player seems to be using, he appears to have more turn attempts than he should, or worse yet, has somehow managed to give himself a feat or other ability he might not qualify for. Most of us are pretty honest when we create characters, but one has to question the honesty of a player who is so obviously looking for loopholes or other ways to "cheat" at the game.
I agree that his character build is in question. I don't see how he can have 26 turn attempts and still have feat-slots available to obtain Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell). Still, there is no limit to the amount of turn attempts a cleric can have per day. This isn't findling loopholes, or cheating, or pulling the wool over the DM's eyes. The feat Extra Turning clearly states that multiple selections of this feat stack. Plain and simple. Meaning a player could take the feat 3, 4, 5 times and he'd receive 4 additional attempts per term. If the DM feels there should be a limit, then he needs to express that homebrew rule before character creation. OR reduce the amount Extra Turning gives to 2 per feat. |
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wintermute27
Learned Scribe
USA
179 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 22:58:45
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This is why I generally don't allow divine meta-magic in my games (unless the PC makes a REALLY compelling argument).
One thing you need to remember is that most of the Shadowdale adventure module takes place within zones 1 and 2 of the Rite of Unwinding (see pg.12). In zone 1 his Transmutation spells (which I presume he is using for his bonuses) take a -4 hit to caster level, and in zone 2 they don't work at all.
When I last ran this module I had a evoker Wizard/Incantatar PC in my group that just got ridiculous. But even his vagrant abuse of meta-magic (I got to the point where I had to approve each feat he took just to keep the party balanced) was curbed when he could no longer drop two maximized 15d6 chain-lightnings during the first round of combat.
But aside from this particular adventure, I have always felt that open communication during character building is the best way to prevent this kind of character from being created. I don't like to say "you can't do X in my game" because I have had players in the past who have used "broken" feats and builds and have made them into compelling characters that weren't annoying or overshadowing at all. I do let my players know that I am a really hard sell when it does come to power-gamer characters (the aforementioned wizard got slipped past me, unfortunately. Nobody is perfect.) but I want them to have the flexibility and creativity to make whatever they want. The same privileges I would want from my DM. |
My Current Campaign: The Adventures of the Stonelanders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 06:06:58
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Hmm, IIRC, Drizzt's use of darkness in that instance (are you sure he was not just using it on a movable object and returning to it or placing it elsewhere? For that matter, how long did that particular "battle" last? If it went on long enough, he could well have "recharged" its use.) might fall be due to the fact that he is a Noble drow, who are supposed to be able to use their abilities more often or longer than commoners to begin with. If he had the Noble-born Drow feat, it would certainly be within the rules- but then again, it might also have just been Salvatore trying to make the battle more fun to read. Rules fudging on occasion is one thing, but he doesn't make a habit of it!
I have to agree that using broken feats, builds, (locate-city bomb, anyone?) etc should always get DM approval FIRST. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 15:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by wintermute27
This is why I generally don't allow divine meta-magic in my games (unless the PC makes a REALLY compelling argument).
So...question: What exactly is a cleric supposed to do what all his turning attempts when fighing undead happens say...20% of the time? Sit there and collect dust? I'm just saying, having a cleric actually utilizing his turning is what makes the class one of the best in the game. The ability to fuel his spells to make them Quickened or Persistant allows him to A.) Free him up to do other things and B.) become more versatile. Unless undead are prevailent in the campaign, a cleric's turn undead ability is practically useless without Divine feats and such.
quote:
Originally posted by wintermute27
One thing you need to remember is that most of the Shadowdale adventure module takes place within zones 1 and 2 of the Rite of Unwinding (see pg.12). In zone 1 his Transmutation spells (which I presume he is using for his bonuses) take a -4 hit to caster level, and in zone 2 they don't work at all.
Is that ALL magical effects, divine and arcane? I was under the impression that only spells gained through the power of the Weave were affected. And as such, clerical abilities weren't suppressed since they're gaind via their God?
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 20:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Is that ALL magical effects, divine and arcane?
Yep.
A deity grants a cleric the means to cast a spell by accessing the Weave, not the raw power to make a spell effect spring forth from the Cleric's mind. See Magic of Faerûn, page 8.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
If he had the Noble-born Drow feat, it would certainly be within the rules- but then again, it might also have just been Salvatore trying to make the battle more fun to read.
This is, I believe, a case of the rules trying (rather late, IMO) to catch up with the novels.
Unless there's a 2E source I don't know about, there was no rule stating noble-born drow could use their abilities more often then commoner drow until the mid years of the 3.5 rules system. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 17 Jan 2011 20:21:01 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 21:24:56
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| @ Mr M: Yep, in the 2nd ed MM, they were considered to be "higher-level" by default. A Noble House was one with more powerful individuals, who were considered to have longer durations and more uses per day of their powers. That 3.5 feat was simply the return of that bit of lore, which for some reason had been dropped in the conversion. Incidentally, 3.5 also had to re-instate the levitation ability as a feat. Not sure why it initially got dropped/switched for the dancing lights, which is a much less useful ability, IMO. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 21:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ Mr M: Yep, in the 2nd ed MM, they were considered to be "higher-level" by default. A Noble House was one with more powerful individuals, who were considered to have longer durations and more uses per day of their powers. That 3.5 feat was simply the return of that bit of lore, which for some reason had been dropped in the conversion. Incidentally, 3.5 also had to re-instate the levitation ability as a feat. Not sure why it initially got dropped/switched for the dancing lights, which is a much less useful ability, IMO.
Good to know, Alystra.
I'm guessing they dropped levitation for balance reasons. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 23:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by wintermute27
This is why I generally don't allow divine meta-magic in my games (unless the PC makes a REALLY compelling argument).
So...question: What exactly is a cleric supposed to do what all his turning attempts when fighing undead happens say...20% of the time? Sit there and collect dust?
I'm going to follow this up with the idea that the most compelling argument for divine metamagic would probably be the forgotten realms, themselves. Don't at least half of the specialty priests in Faiths & Avatars trade turn undead for whatever it is that makes them special? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 23:58:22
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| Alystra - I'm talking the 2E Faiths and Avatars, not the 3E Faiths and Pantheons. :) |
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wintermute27
Learned Scribe
USA
179 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 02:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What exactly is a cleric supposed to do what all his turning attempts when fighing undead happens say...20% of the time?
This is one of the reason I like Pathfinder so much. I never understood why all clerics, regardless of belief, would undergo specific training in "undead wrangling". I'm not saying that I don't see the benefits of the divine meta-magic feats, I just see these situations where the feats are abused more often than I see a PC use them responsibly. |
My Current Campaign: The Adventures of the Stonelanders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 05:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by wintermute27
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What exactly is a cleric supposed to do what all his turning attempts when fighing undead happens say...20% of the time?
This is one of the reason I like Pathfinder so much. I never understood why all clerics, regardless of belief, would undergo specific training in "undead wrangling". I'm not saying that I don't see the benefits of the divine meta-magic feats, I just see these situations where the feats are abused more often than I see a PC use them responsibly.
I'd say it's because all of the deities, in some form or other, represent the forces of life and nature -- even the taking of life or destruction of nature still involves those forces. Undead are an affront to life and nature, so naturally most deities would be opposed to them, even if not explicitly. |
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 05:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd say it's because all of the deities, in some form or other, represent the forces of life and nature -- even the taking of life or destruction of nature still involves those forces. Undead are an affront to life and nature, so naturally most deities would be opposed to them, even if not explicitly.
And the deities that aren't opposed to these forces grant their followers divine power enough to control and command the undead. |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 10:44:12
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
One thing you need to remember is that most of the Shadowdale adventure module takes place within zones 1 and 2 of the Rite of Unwinding (see pg.12). In zone 1 his Transmutation spells (which I presume he is using for his bonuses) take a -4 hit to caster level, and in zone 2 they don't work at all.
Is that ALL magical effects, divine and arcane? I was under the impression that only spells gained through the power of the Weave were affected. And as such, clerical abilities weren't suppressed since they're gaind via their God?
Yep, all magic is affected, both those magics that are gained through skill in manipulation of the weave and through those that are granted by faith. Remember the weave is NOT a source of magic but a conduit. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 18 Jan 2011 10:48:35 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Delanish
Acolyte
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 19:16:17
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I personally enjoy a shove in his cleric face and if he really just powergamer and not following Helms Claims, He uses all his cleric Abilities and just is basically a fighter until he atones if it gets to out of hand. (until Helm sets him right again)
My old Dm killed off a dwarf because he had no concern for his half dead brother and ran for the treasure and KABOOM!, a cave in My Thayan Wizard just smirked and let my knight help the patch the dwarf up since cause it's (always nice to have a merc friend)
He did this because he was also trying to apply for Dwarvern defender Priestage class and put gold ahead of his Kin, which the gods frown on! |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 19:38:57
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Beyond just the rules, even the novels state that divine power is delivered via the weave. I think in either Prince of Lies or The Trial of Cyric the Mad it was stated that Mystra could turn off the weave to all the Gods.
towards the discussion of Drizzt... that is really pointless. RAS has stated that he does not bind his writing to being in line with the rules. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 20:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
True, but even a writer holds to certain "rules" of not letting characters abuse their powers (ie, actively acting as munchkins).
Were this true we'd not have Drizzt.
You have to admit Drizzt is like the Deepspawn that sired thousands of Duel Wielding Drow PC knockoffs, every one of them maximized within the D&D rules to get the best version possible.
Consider also Drizzt's use of Bracers of Speed on his legs to make himself move faster. At the gaming table that'd be a classic powergamer move but in the novel it reads great because it shows of Drizzt's willingness to inovate and improvise.
I’d be willing to bet that most novel writers have a basic understanding of the D&D game rules but they don't all hold fast to any hard and fast regulation of how the rules should affect their books; authors like Rich Baker tried hard to make some of his characters conform to the rules as much as possible while Salvatore—thankfully—flaunts them on occasion. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 18 Jan 2011 21:55:30 |
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Delanish
Acolyte
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 03:05:58
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Don't bring Novels in this in Book 2 of the Avatar seris the Wizard had a Panther Filmilar that could at will change into a human barbarbin wielding a great axe
At level 1 my little wizard buddy is a kitten or a Bird |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 05:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Delanish
Don't bring Novels in this in Book 2 of the Avatar seris the Wizard had a Panther Filmilar that could at will change into a human barbarbin wielding a great axe
At level 1 my little wizard buddy is a kitten or a Bird
I think that was one of the Pools novels, actually. It was one of the reasons I've not touched those novels in years. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 06:00:51
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Let's all first admit that our hobby was birthed from novels. =)
Anyway, the reason I'm bringing in novels is to demonstrate that novels shouldn't be brought in to begin with when talking about game rules. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 06:18:44
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Mr M: "Were this true we'd not have Drizzt.
You have to admit Drizzt is like the Deepspawn that sired thousands of Duel Wielding Drow PC knockoffs, every one of them maximized within the D&D rules to get the best version possible.
Consider also Drizzt's use of Bracers of Speed on his legs to make himself move faster. At the gaming table that'd be a classic power-gamer move but in the novel it reads great because it shows of Drizzt's willingness to innovate and improvise."
Actually, Drizzt is a good example of a believable character in a game setting. Much gets made of his supposed munchkinism, and yes, there are literally thousands of clones played by power-gamers and others, but it's as much the items he uses (and HOW he uses them) as his skills(feats) that make him such a powerful character both in the books and in game stats. It's precisely the innovative thinking that makes him stand out, but that doesn't make him a power-gaming character by any means.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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A Power-Gaming Cleric...should this be allowed?
