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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:28:33
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| I'm going to agree w/ Rhewtani and Misc. and NOT "gun" for the PC. His character is good, but not versatile, which is sad since the cleric is a very versatile class. Instead, target the other players and make him choose between being a useless tank or healer. Its not good if ur let ur allies die. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:37:03
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That was sort of my point too, actually. But I prefer to get a little heavy-handed on the player who hasgone for that route rather than allow everyone else to suffer for it by having other party members get killed simply because he chooses not to use the cleric's most useful feature- ie, healing. Wasting that many turn undead attempts on perma-buffs doesn't seem very useful to me, either. Anyway, I wasn't saying to do it frequently- usually, just one or two encounters where his supposed tank ends up getting smacked around by a bunch of magic-using or level draining creatures while the rest of the party fights for its life is enough to make them rethink such tactics. It's sort of a "tough-love" approach, but if used carefully, it works.
Edit: Please note that I do not advocate "singling out" any player/character under most circumstances, whether in a favorable or unfavorable light. But using an encounter or two that would have occured anyway and simply altering it slightly to bring to light the problems created by such a character is completely within the boundaries of a DM's job of keeping the game balanced and fun for the entire group. If he wants to play it that way, fine. But he should be prepared to face whatever consequences (including the rancor of his fellow party members for that lack of healing) that may come his way! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 10 Jan 2011 20:44:40 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 19:44:37
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As I indicated in my first reply, the DM should not target a single character or player. It breaks the fun for the other players.
While I have not seen the entire build a Cleric with no offensive spells and will not heal the result of character build, it strikes me as unlikely other PCs would even consider travel with.
The very concept of if I am alright everyone else in party will be alright, to ma, fails logic. The Cleric's immunities will not protect the Bard from Magic Missile. The immunity of the Cleric will not protect other PCs in any way except if the Cleric can kill all foes before the foes can kill a PC (OK some of the other PCs clearly can get in a few kills as far as that goes). The concept of this Cleric being a member of a party, as described, appears to preclude any one would want to travel with him.
Telling players what the future holds clearly holds problems, however in game the Cleric could have used magic to discover the likely future. The player however should have never been told something will not occur. A DM certainly can outline the likely foes - example kill pirates that threaten shipping lanes (implies sailing, ship board combat and human foes) - example rescue Moon elf taken by Drow (implies Underdark, MR/SR and pretty females). An outline of direction that the PCs decide to follow will not include the random undead, fire resistant troll and so on. No game, short of railroad, does the DM know how it will go. Wander from the map, kill the NPC (that was a possible friend) and so on changes the story - or adventure path.
One thing so far I have not seen is some overview of the other PCs in the Campaign. The player it is replacing a character that died into the ongoing adventure. Role Play wise, it could make sense to understand why self centered Cleric even wants to join after the party lost a member.
Then there is reality of maintaining a playing group. This is not something we can advise on, expel one member and you might lose friend of player, keep player you might lose more players.
No DN should engage in DM vs. character, no DM should even engage in DM vs. PCs. The role of a DM is to build a challenge that will test a party. Tactics of the NPCs determined as a base, however subject to change based on PC choices. The dice are there to determine random chances, and adds the risk of an campaign or encounter.
One thing that 4th Edition seems to offer more then other Editions is stressing a party needs to look out for each other. This concept of course has existed in all Editions, Good/Law defeating Evil/Chaos.
IMO no self centered PC can survive long in an adventuring party, either the rest will die or that PC will be abandoned (if not killed) by the rest of the party. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 22:55:46
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Thank ye all, wise sages!
I'll let you know what happens this Friday!
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Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 23:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorin Embersmith
Thank ye all, wise sages!
I'll let you know what happens this Friday!
So what approach will you be using? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 23:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So what approach will you be using?
I'm thinking of using a multiple-point approach:
1st: I'm just gonna say "Hell no, you can't play that character"
Since he will disagree and play it anyway. I will go to
2nd:since the weave is tearing here, using more than 7 turn attempts in a set time limit will result in a wild magic effect. If this doesn't work, I'll go to
3rd: Put him an unwinnable "rescue a prisoner" situation (which is handily scripted into the adventure already). If he does win, I'll go to
4th: Scyllua Darkhope will capture him and deliver him to Alokkair to drain his divine power to power the weave rift's expansion...after feebleminding him so he can't pray for spells.
I decided against punishing the other players for his powergaming, since they have it hard enough in the strategy department. |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 03:27:18
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| Ugh. |
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 03:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Ugh.
Ugh what? |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 15:20:41
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I'm just not fond of that approach. He's just running a character class in a way that you would prefer he not, but it's getting settled with a pretty heavy handed result.
You've come up with "world" mechanics to confront a single character. I'm, actually, not even sure turning undead even utilizes the weave.
If his powers suite is going to prevent him from performing his duties as a priest of helm (situation 4), then so be it, that's the natural consequence of it. 2,3,5 are just contrived and will be transparent.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 15:21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorin Embersmith
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Ugh.
Ugh what?
I don't think he agrees with your decision. Can't say I'm a fan either. Couple of things I feel I should mention:
quote:
Originally posted by Jorin Embersmith
1st: I'm just gonna say "Hell no, you can't play that character"
- To me, this seems heavy handed. Just saying "no" and not giving valid reasons seems like bullying IMO. Not saying you are, just seems that way over the internet-based forums.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorin Embersmith
2nd:since the weave is tearing here, using more than 7 turn attempts in a set time limit will result in a wild magic effect.
- It's my understanding that Divine power gained through a Deity is NOT affected by the weave. This means, if the weave failed clerics and other divine casters would NOT be affected. Since I've been playing in this adventure I know that the tearing of the weave doesn't affect clerical spells, so why would turning undead?
quote:
Originally posted by Jorin Embersmith
Put him an unwinnable "rescue a prisoner" situation (which is handily scripted into the adventure already). If he does win, I'll go to
4th: Scyllua Darkhope will capture him and deliver him to Alokkair to drain his divine power to power the weave rift's expansion...after feebleminding him so he can't pray for spells.
- Pretty much singling out a specific PC because you don't like his build. By doing this, your saying to your PCs "Don't build powerful characters, better to make them middle of the road or they'll die horrible deaths."
Maybe your PCs already know this and, as you said yourself, "they have it hard enough in the strategy department". So if they're struggling with strategy and the adventure is hard enough, a powerful character would probably be a Boon to this group, not a hinderance.
I've got a couple of questions:
Did you check his character and see if it's legit? Does he meet all the requirements for Divine Metamagic [Persist Spel] or even Persist Spell for that matter?
Did he take the Planning Domain for the extra Extend Spell feat? Does Helm even grant player's the Planning Domain?
Have you seen this character in action in more than 3 encounters? If he has been dominating the arena of combat, out shining all the other PCs, and consistantly doing nothing else to help his allies, then yes I'd consider having a little "sit-down" with him and showing him that the other's aren't getting any help from his character (a character devoted to a god of Protection) and should heal people up after combat.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 16:46:07
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My biggest issue is that the deity of guardians isn't going to be cool with looking out for Number 1, and ignoring everyone else. That's why my suggestion played up that angle -- give an in-game excuse for why his playstyle/build wasn't acceptable.
I wasn't even looking at the rules side of it. I'm not knowledgable enough there. But lore-wise? Yeah, he's in the wrong. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 18:27:26
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| Well, do we really know how he's going to run this guy? What if it turns out he constantly throws himself in the path of whatever's coming after the party and their associates and pulls off any monster that's about to take down an ally? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 18:52:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, do we really know how he's going to run this guy? What if it turns out he constantly throws himself in the path of whatever's coming after the party and their associates and pulls off any monster that's about to take down an ally?
We know what's been described, including an attitude of "defend others by defending himself". That is not in keeping with Helm's teachings, and thus the character should be subject to Helm's displeasure. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 19:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, do we really know how he's going to run this guy? What if it turns out he constantly throws himself in the path of whatever's coming after the party and their associates and pulls off any monster that's about to take down an ally?
Ah, I guess I should have clarified. A few years back he played this exact same character in another campaign in which we were both players. Had I been DM, I wouldn't have allowed it then, and told him so.
Also, he most certainly does not throw himself any direction but away....he's constantly on the verge of metagaming (juuuuuust walking the line between "my character is 10th level, he would know what a beholder is" and "Wind-sock shaped and making whistling noises? Sound bad, I full retreat!") so he does stay alive, but usually because the rest of the party acted as meat-shields.
So, no, not really Helm-like at all.
Again, in my opinion, common sense and lore trumps rules loopholes any day of the week. (For instance, Killing Tarrasque by hiring 1000 1st level sorcerers combined with his wish spell) What I really need is a ruling on whether anything in the lore backs up a reason for having 26 turning attempts per day.... |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 20:13:03
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quote:
Ah, I guess I should have clarified. A few years back he played this exact same character in another campaign in which we were both players. Had I been DM, I wouldn't have allowed it then, and told him so.
Well, that pretty much cinches it. You've got a pre-existing statement locking this character type out.
I really don't see where existing lore has ever touched on "number of turn attempts in a day."
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 23:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Absolutely NOT. There is no reason any cleric should be able to get away with that. If it wouldn't/couldn't happen in a book, then it shouldn't be possible in the game (IMHO), unless his god just gave him an "unlimited-turn-attempt" card!
That is a completly odd way of thinking. There are tons of things characters in books can do yet PC in games are restricted of. Furthering that restriction based on a handful of authors that may no teven play with the rules you are using is just crazy.
There are no restrictions on the number of turning attempts a cleric can gain, lore doesn't mention this because lore is steeped in setting material, not contrived rules of the current (or past) editions. If a cleric wants to take Extra Turning at every level he gains a feat, no rule is stopping him..
The main thing is he's using his turning to gain benefits, something encouraged BY the rules. He needs to learn to heal, and cast Party buff spells like Prayer, Mass Aid, Bless, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc.. I agree with Wooly, give him a Divine Vision that Helm is very disturbed w/ his servants behavior, further disregard will result in punishment. |
Edited by - Diffan on 12 Jan 2011 23:19:52 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 23:23:48
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I've read this entire thread...three times.
In all my years gaming since the late 70s I've seen this type of player. My suggestion is feel sorry for the fella.
He wants to be THE hero and doesn't want his character to die. Perhaps, like many munchkins, he is handicapped on a personality level and wants to find some way to make his gaming time more enjoyable.
HOWEVER, what he is finding as enjoyment and perhaps thinking he should be congratulated for figuring out, is just the thing that is upsetting to others. My oldest son is this way...he doesn't understand social cues, boundries and what is "normal" all the time...and so he is often outcast sadly.
The ultimate answer to this problem as I see it: role-playing. Lead by example...as some have suggested, his character (not the player!) should be perhaps punished by the God he professes to venerate.
REGARDLESS of any rules set...ultimately a good game is going to boil down to simply playing the game as the Role-Playing game it is intended to be.
If he is an IMPOSSIBLE prospect as a role-player, then simply don't play with him.
My two coppers. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 23:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Absolutely NOT. There is no reason any cleric should be able to get away with that. If it wouldn't/couldn't happen in a book, then it shouldn't be possible in the game (IMHO), unless his god just gave him an "unlimited-turn-attempt" card!
That is a completly odd way of thinking. There are tons of things characters in books can do yet PC in games are restricted of. Furthering that restriction based on a handful of authors that may no teven play with the rules you are using is just crazy.
There are no restrictions on the number of turning attempts a cleric can gain, lore doesn't mention this because lore is steeped in setting material, not contrived rules of the current (or past) editions. If a cleric wants to take Extra Turning at every level he gains a feat, no rule is stopping him..
The main thing is he's using his turning to gain benefits, something encouraged BY the rules. He needs to learn to heal, and cast Party buff spells like Prayer, Mass Aid, Bless, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc.. I agree with Wooly, give him a Divine Vision that Helm is very disturbed w/ his servants behavior, further disregard will result in punishment.
Maybe I should clarify. you would not expect a priest in a Fr novel to just keep endlessly turning undead any more than you would allow a wizard to keep endlessly lobbing fireballs, as they DO run out of divine power eventually. so why would you let someone in the game do something that goes against lore both in-game and in-story? There's got to be a limit. That's basically what I was trying to say.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Jorin Embersmith
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 00:15:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
REGARDLESS of any rules set...ultimately a good game is going to boil down to simply playing the game as the Role-Playing game it is intended to be.
If he is an IMPOSSIBLE prospect as a role-player, then simply don't play with him.
My two coppers.
I agree wholeheartedly. And, sometimes he can pull off some truly awe-inspiring role-playing. Sadly, these times are rare...more often than not, he would rather use a rules loophole to do something spectacular than use role-playing to the same effect.
I try to encourage roleplaying in a myriad of ways....XP, bonuses to combat based on real-ness (and awesomeness), etc.
But, this is the same guy who was annoyed because I didn't allow his 4th level hm Monk create a Desalinization Plant when they were lost at sea on a dinghy. |
Karavarus: I polymorph into a Hydra and let loose a bellowing roar! Is he intimidated?
Me: No, but the female hydra behind him certainly notices you... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 02:09:11
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I don't see how using his turning attempts (generally considered channeling the divine power of your deity) to fuel metamagic effects powergaming, Min/Maxing, or even utilizing a Loophole. Espically when the feat is designed to do exactly that. Also, consider the fact that it takes 7 attempts for a 1st level spell.
quote:
[Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Maybe I should clarify. you would not expect a priest in a Fr novel to just keep endlessly turning undead any more than you would allow a wizard to keep endlessly lobbing fireballs, as they DO run out of divine power eventually. so why would you let someone in the game do something that goes against lore both in-game and in-story? There's got to be a limit. That's basically what I was trying to say....
Honestly, I've never really read clerics in ANY D&D novel using turn undead more than once or twice in the same novel let alone 1 battle. And I've read lots of novels where any PC would be very stretched rules wise to accomplish what novel characters can do. Comparing what a PC in D&D can do to what a character can do in a book is bad practice IMO. The two don't function the same as an author will do anything to get his story across, streching rules of a game it's based off of to breaking throse rules completly. And we're not talking about Turning undead feature to repel/destory undead, we're talking about utilizing that unspend divine energy to do something else, through the use of feats and so forth.
Since we don't have any information on the character aside from what the OP said, I'm fairly certain his character was built incorrectly. The only way I can see this build actually working legitly, he'd need the Planning domain (assuming Helm grants that), Extra Turning 3x, the Persist Spell metamagic feat, DMM (Persist Spell) feat, and Charisma 20 all by 10th level. That is a very very focused build. Outside of persisting (at most) a max of 3 spells (one 1st thru 3rd level), he's not that much of a cleric.
Now if you want something completly broken, I present the Cheater of Mystra!
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Edited by - Diffan on 13 Jan 2011 04:22:49 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 13:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
My question to him- where would he have BUILT it? And out of WHAT?! That's just nutty. Not to metion not FR character I know of would even HAVE that kind of knowledge. He was clearly meta-gaming in that instance.
Are you considering it meta-gaming because he's using his class feature for something besides turning? Divine meta-magic (quicken spell) is a staple point in many of my cleric builds, because a cleric cant rely on spells alone AND if the player is worth his salt knows there arent going to be undead in every encounter. So making his turn undead attemps useful for other things is just smart.
And this character only needs 3 books to pull off this build: PHB, Complete Divine, & PGtF.
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 14:40:27
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| I think Alystra was asking about the player's last character wanting to build a desalination plant, not about the cleric. Also, if the cleric was going to use his divine metamagic to buff/protect his allies I'd tell the OP that there is no problem with that, and that cleric would be a great team member and work thematically. The problem is that using it to turn his character into a juggernaut and then using the party as meat shields is so far away from what Helm stand for that this player isn't even trying to follow his cleric's god in character and is using the rules to make himself powerful at the expense of others and so needs to be reigned in. |
Edited by - idilippy on 13 Jan 2011 14:44:22 |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 15:10:14
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| But all he's really building is a meat shield. It's not the abilities that are the problem at all here. The only actual issue here is that through his ACTIONS (not his character build) he is not being adherent to Helm's tenants. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 17:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
But all he's really building is a meat shield. It's not the abilities that are the problem at all here. The only actual issue here is that through his ACTIONS (not his character build) he is not being adherent to Helm's tenants.
I think it's still relevant how the character is built, though I've not enough knowledge of 3.x to know whether or not it is a legal build.
That said, if the build is legal, then playing the "Helm is pissed!" card is, IMO, the optimal way to deal with the issue. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 19:50:46
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Could a copy of his character be posted so that those like Diffan can examine it for its legitimacy?
I happen to agree with Rhew. Protecting others by protecting yourself is not like Helm. Someone dying under his protection, due to his inaction would be a mark against him. Once he starts loosing turning attempts, his character may find his faith =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 02:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I think Alystra was asking about the player's last character wanting to build a desalination plant, not about the cleric. Also, if the cleric was going to use his divine metamagic to buff/protect his allies I'd tell the OP that there is no problem with that, and that cleric would be a great team member and work thematically. The problem is that using it to turn his character into a juggernaut and then using the party as meat shields is so far away from what Helm stand for that this player isn't even trying to follow his cleric's god in character and is using the rules to make himself powerful at the expense of others and so needs to be reigned in.
I was indeed. Desalinization is an innovation of the last century or so, and to build an entire plant for that purpose on a dinghy (a boat that holds no more than five or six people, BTW) is ludicrous.
Also, it's not JUST novel characters I was referring to, earlier, but yes, it is certainly fair to compare the two when dealing with characters in FR stories, as many of them were D&D PC's even before they were novel characters. In either case, however, there is a definite limit to how many times they could try to use that power, and it sounds suspiciously like this player has more of that power than he should.
I had a player or two try to sneak something similar by me. In this case, it was a duskblade, but while the character itself was not precisely illegal, he had a couple of spells that were not on the duskblade's spell list, which is very limited to a specific group of spells. Then he tried to use the non-legal spell during a session of play, and it was only afterward that I discovered that particular spell was not allowed to the class. (It was a spell with a similar name to one that WAS on the list, and he apparently seemed to think that if one was allowed, the other should be too...) I've also had a player who tried to make a fear save that was mechanically impossible for her PC. (Max possible of 24 with all mods, and save was a 25 DC- she said she passed, and it slipped through.)
It sounds like what he has here is the worst combo of a player: a min-max er who likes to bend or break rules at the expense of other players. On TOP of not keeping his character in line with the faith it is portrayed as following. Not only should HELM be pissed, but the character should be either re-built with the DM watching, or scrapped.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 13:25:34
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Also, if the cleric was going to use his divine metamagic to buff/protect his allies I'd tell the OP that there is no problem with that, and that cleric would be a great team member and work thematically.
The big problem with that is Persistant Spells must have a range of Personal. So he won't be able to use his all day Protection from Evil on his allies.
That's not to mean that he can't protect them with the tactics he's uing. I'm assuming in his mind, being the large tank in the party pulls attacks to him instead of his squishy allies. This in turn is protecting them. However not cadting healing spells on them, buffing them during combat, and running away at full-speed to leave them in the dust are NOT morals Helm would approve of.
@ Jorin: I'm suggesting you tell your player that he'll need to be more of a healer and protect them using spells and tactics instead of just charging the main bad guy and leaving them to their own ends. Some spell suggestions that will help his allies- Bless, Aid, Consecrate, Prayer, Mass Aid, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Wings of the Deity, Revivify, and HEALING CIRCLE!!
I used caps for Healing Circle because it's a great spell. It's 5th level, Conjuration [Healing] spell from the Complete Champion supplement that lays down a 30 ft. area (centered on you) that allows any ally within the circle to spend a standard action and be affected by a cure spell. The spell has 5 charges, and they degrade as the charges are spent. The 1st charge allows an ally to be affected by cure critical wounds, then cure serious, then cure moderate, then cure light, then regain 5 hit points as the last charge. The best part is the item Armbands of Maximized Healing can maximize ALL the healing this spell can offer by spending 1 charge of the armbands  . I mention this because your Helmite cleric can cast this spell right off the bat, then charge into the fray without worrying about spending his actions healing his allies. If they need healing, they can aquire it without hindering the cleric.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Also, it's not JUST novel characters I was referring to, earlier, but yes, it is certainly fair to compare the two when dealing with characters in FR stories, as many of them were D&D PC's even before they were novel characters. In either case, however, there is a definite limit to how many times they could try to use that power, and it sounds suspiciously like this player has more of that power than he should.
Well then by those standards, my drow PCs should never run out of their Darkness and Faerie Fire spells since Drizzt uses them willy-nilly in the novels. And by the novel standards, PC arcane spellcasters should never run out of spells since when have we ever read a novel where that happens? There's a reason why the rules are in place, to regulate what a PC can do in the "game". These same strictures do not, nor should they EVER, rule what a character can do in a D&D novel.
Also, there are no restrictions on the amout of turning undead a cleric has access to. Of course, you can restrict this as a houserule, which is another avenue Jorin may want to persue. OR say that Extra Turning cannot be taken more than once. This would limit the amout of persistant spells and what level he can cast. So only 1 extra turning would gain him 4 additional attempts + 3 + Charisma mod (we'll say +5) would only net him 12 attempts (16 with a Nightstick) so thats only 2 Persistant Spells of 1st level. Or one 1st level and one 2nd level Persistant Spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
It sounds like what he has here is the worst combo of a player: a min-max er who likes to bend or break rules at the expense of other players. On TOP of not keeping his character in line with the faith it is portrayed as following. Not only should HELM be pissed, but the character should be either re-built with the DM watching, or scrapped.
Again, I'd like to point out that the PC hasn't broken any rules or even bent them in a strange fashion. He is role-playing a way that is not what a cleric of Helm should be doing. He's not playing his character with a team-oriented goal and that's not good. Anyone who plays a cleric knows that she/he's the primary "Heal-Bot" for a good portion of their career. That's what clerics are good at, healing. Your PC needs to come to grips with this.
I do agree that the player should build the character with the DM there, so there won't be any misunderstanding on what he's doing or what sources he's pulling them from. Jorin, if you don't want this sort of gaming at your table then I'd suggest putting limits on what sources your PCs can utilize. Something like only using Core books to start or No Complete books or no Tome of Battle (though I'd consider this a last resort).
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 14:35:55
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| Well, has he actually run this character yet? If he hasn't, then it'll be hard to say Helm's already got it out for him. |
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A Power-Gaming Cleric...should this be allowed?
