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Arielis
Acolyte
Canada
13 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 00:48:43
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Foreword:
I'm new to these forums and only familiar with the novel side of Forgotten Realms. So I don't understand any of the D&D/Roleplaying aspect of Forgotten Realms. So I apologize for my lack of knowledge! I've tried to read up, but I've exceeded my monthly downloads (by a lot) so I haven't been able to do all the research I've intended) Please have patience
I have been slowly hacking away at the Forgotten Realm books and a couple of questions have come up about Dragons. I have searched through these forums for some of the answers but haven't received all of them. Please indulge my curiousity by either answering or linking me some of the answers! Since I'm looking at this from a novel perspective, please don't worry about icluding stats or skills.
Questions:
1. Typically, what are the differences between male & females (personality-wise/habits)if there are any?
2. Why do Gem/Shadow dragons (or any outer-plane dragons) bother spending any time at all in the material plane?
3. What are some of the shape-shifting preferences that (shape-shifting able) dragons have?
[I've noticed 'Good' dragons like humans and elves. What about the more neutral/Evil types?]
4. Do dragons get bored? How do they typically deal with it?
5. Why are dragons prone to long great sleeps?
[That assumption could be incorrect, please feel free to correct]
6. Does Tiamat fully approve of dracoliches? Why or Why not?
[Afterall, isn't undeath an abomination of the pure dragon? Or does her evil thirst for power trump that issue?]
7. Why are dragons prone to hoarding?
[They're supposed to see themselves as greater beings. Why the need to need such silly things from other races? Shouldn't they want something that simply furthers their own greatness, ie. magic?]
8. Why are (Evil) dragons prone to using vassals? Which ones do they prefer?
[Isn't it unnecessary? An immature need for worship or show of power?]
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 02:01:31
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Well met, Arielis.
Many of Candlekeep's scribes only read the novels, or only play the game. Candlekeep welcomes all who are interested in the Realms.quote:
Arielis
3. What are some of the shape-shifting preferences that (shape-shifting able) dragons have?
4. Do dragons get bored? How do they typically deal with it?
5. Why are dragons prone to long great sleeps?
7. Why are dragons prone to hoarding?
8. Why are (Evil) dragons prone to using vassals? Which ones do they prefer?
Dragons often offset boredom by actively and aggressively seeking to expand their hoard. They also tend to have superior intellects and spend a lot of time practicing magic. Some like to spend time with the lesser races (usually somehow manipulating them to ultimately enrich the dragon's hoard, magic, and power). Older/bigger dragons tend to sleep a lot (especially when wounded or after long periods of high activity). Still, dragons get bored.
Dragon psychology is different from that of humans (indeed, alien to any non-draconic race). They are (or at least they view themselves) as stronger, smarter, and superior; much of their interaction (with everybody) is based on arrogant pride, displays of greatness, intimidation, and fierce competition. They directly equate the size of their hoard with power, accomplishment, and social status; a bigger hoard means a bigger ego, demonstrates superior competence, and commands greater respect from peers. A dragon who (for whatever reason) does not possess a mighty hoard is generally perceived as being weak, stupid, incompetent, inferior, and perhaps vulnerable. I don't know if this is based on their pseudo-reptilian psychological instincts or if it's impressed by their cultural conditioning (or if there's any meaningful distinction, since dragons are largely solitary and self-reliant even as hatchlings), but hoarding is a central theme in all draconic thinking and "society". A dragon who is disinterested in hoarding would be seen as unhealthy, anomalous, and deviant by other dragons - the equivalent of humans who deliberately abandon all social and family interactions - a complication for such dragons would be that their peers and competitors (and probably a lot of nondragons) aren't averse to subjugating or killing such "unworthy" specimens, while incidentally also being able to access more items and magic useful for that purpose.
Draconic biology also has a fantastic element. They are creatures of magic and it's even been commented in D&D canon that without "subconscious" magic dragons cannot fly, let alone even exist. It might be that an accumulated hoard of magic (or exposure to same) is necessary for their survival. Various examples of dragons decadently enjoying themselves by eating precious metals, gemstones, and magical tidbits do occur (especially in some of the D&D monster descriptions, which detail rules for dragon carcasses providing dragonhide and a variety of magical ingredients); so perhaps dragons require magic "nutrients" or "vitamins" in their diet, and perhaps their scales require lots of metal/crystal the same way our bones require calcium.
Metallic (and most good-aligned) dragons tend to like interacting with other intelligent races. Their polymorph and shapechange magics let them assume any form they desire. They probably interact a lot with humans and elves because these are (or were) the dominant races of the age; elves also have long enough lifespans to permit more substantial relationships. Dragonborn offspring do occur, sometimes even through love (the Dragonlance novels explored the old trope of monsters who assumed human form unintentionally also assuming some human emotional capacity).
Chromatic (and most evil-aligned) dragons are probably generally more interested in manipulation, intimidation, infiltration, and deception. To them, assuming a human (or other) form is just a convenient way to work towards their goals (of increasing their hoard and their power); whether they're active "in person" or are recruiting/controlling agents. Dragonborn offspring make good intermediaries who are inferior to the dragon (and therefore not a threat) yet are superior to the rabble (and therefore useful). I don't know of any chromatic racial preferences (outside of preferring dragons, at least of their own kind), though evil dragons do tend to install themselves as gods/tyrants over less developed (and usually evil) humanoids like orcs and goblins, which might result in some number of dragonborn "vassals" of similar parentage. If they deliberately create such offspring it will be for the purpose of using them as tools in the future. They don't mind waiting a few decades (for somebody else) to raise capable minions or armies whose loyalties can be reinforced through blood ties.
As a dragon's hoard grows larger so too does paranoia about securing it (a quality they share with humans) - so older dragons leave their lairs less and less frequently. Adventurers and agents can provide a lot of useful magic (some of which might be crafted by wizards beyond the dragon's current skills) and a lot of useful information (about where the gold and magic can be found, who's been intruding in the dragon's territory, what other dragons are up to). Smarter dragons might employ human agents to bring them such things. Some of the smartest dragons form "human" organizations (usually without revealing their true form). There are some examples of dragons sometimes operating "magic shoppes" where they buy/sell/trade some of the stuff they hoard; although these deals and arrangements are usually beneficial for all participants the dragon always benefits most. There are also examples of dragons who've invested in human businesses or formed "corporate" entities, directing some portion of their hoard into human ventures to endlessly multiply their gold over time; pirates, bandits, and competitors might not dare attack ships and caravans belonging to a merchant guild owned and "protected" by a dragon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Jan 2011 04:51:28 |
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Arielis
Acolyte
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 04:48:20
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Thanks so much for your answer~!
I absolutely love what you had to say about 'magic vitamins', and I certainly didn't know about that before.
As for the hoarding, I think I'm too clouded by the idea that somehow living for thousands of years instills this sort of wisdom that trumps all personality/cultural flaws. Even vassals appear to be a silly need for an evil dragon, as most dragons could take out other dragon's vassals (of course there are certain exceptions). That being said, I can understand how an ego would needed to be stroked by being worshiped and commanding vassals.
As far as items go, magic I understand. But I am having a hard time wrapping my head around why a creature that sees himself/herself better than any other race, would bother collecting a lower race's belongings. Or why a dragon would covet another dragon's hoard of a lower race's belongings. It would be like if you and me looking at a peacock and being annoyed because that peacock has nice feathers. In no way does the feathers benefit us. We can't use it for anything. They're just there. But we'll still go ahead and kill the peacock and fight over it's remains, because... we can?
Thousands of years of living and still dragons have such a massive flaw. It's really almost depressing (if you were a dragon). It appears as though they're quite easily manipulated because of the huge obsession they have. Well now I'm blithering. Sorry and Thank you for the information!
[PS- In no way is this meant to appear as though I'm criticizing FR. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it] |
'If you can't be good, be lucky!' |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 05:20:15
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The only context I can offer is that humans are considered (by many) as being the dominant form of life on our world, superior because our capacity for reason (among other things) elevates us above the beasts. Yet, humans are also hardwired with instincts and flaws; we act exactly like any other animal in many ways, some of which are disgustingly uncivilized. Even the most experienced, wisest, and noblest among humans cannot easily deny instinct; the overwhelming majority of humans are not even aware of what really governs their thoughts and actions (rational thought is often not rational at all, but emotional or instinctive). Even the wisest of humans can be manipulated by human obsessions and flaws; if that weren't the case then all human societies would be led by wise elders and the human race would live in utopia.
A recurring theme in some Realms literature (wherein dragons reside) is that dragons were once the dominant race, replaced in time by elves, who were in turn ultimately replaced by humans. The usual explanation is that much of the drive behind each species is determined by the outlooks they gain from their lifespans, great things are accomplished in generations instead of lifetimes. A large dragon empire could be constructed in a dozen millennia, or one of elves in a dozen centuries, or one of humans in a dozen years. At a smaller level, a dragon and a human each dedicating their lives toward some great goal (like researching a particular spell) would each require different timespans (say, 50 years vs 1000). Plus dragons multiply very slowly, elves less so, humans like wildfire - and the "younger" races enjoy tremendous advantages once their population reaches sufficient numbers.
No need to apologize for asking questions. And, lol, I'm not really an expert on dragons - I've never even seen one firsthand. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 06:57:55
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I have!! (Well, okay, it was more like a very small fire drake, but you'd be surprised what you can spot lurking in a campfire when you know what to look for! LOL!) Seriously, though, there are some good answers to the hoarding question in my old fave source the Council of Wyrms (2nd ed) AD&D book. It explained the hoarding "instinct" as being part of their physiology. The reason, as that book gave it, was that a dragon's size, strength, and magical ability come not just from the foods they eat, but from magical emanations and perhaps some form of "sympathetic magic" from sleeping on/consuming portions of their hoards. Dragon sleep and growth especially is tied to their bond to their hoard. They literally become physically and psychologically connected to it, to the extent that they "know" where every last gold piece is, or if something is missing, without the need to count it. This stems partly from the (little-known) fact that when a dragon prepares to lay its eggs, it also swallows gems or metals (depending on dragon type) of an appropriate kind that are then passed into the egg to aid in the new dragon's growth. Most of the gem or metal is consumed by the growing dragonling in the egg, and whatever is left after hatching becomes the beginning of its bonded hoard. So one could say that they NEED their hoards to continue to grow and gain power. In fact, a dragon that looses its hoard becomes weaker and lethargic, and can even sicken and die if it is not recovered.
As for why they need vassals- most dragons actually DON'T. However, like most sentient creatures, they DO feel a need for company of some sort, but since most dragons are highly competitive and paranoid about their hoards and personal power (and rightly so, considering the hoard-bond!), having another dragon around all the time would be threatening to most. Ergo, find some weaker and easily intimidated intelligent beings to manipulate and spend time around, and the dragon gets two benefits with little effort- not only do they have agents that can go places or do things they physically can't, but it gives them someone to talk to and perhaps keeps boredom at bay. After all, if you had centuries to kill, and could dominate or manipulate others into carrying out your plans while you amuse yourself watching it, why WOULDN'T you?!
Of course such tactics are generally used mainly by chromatics and other evil dragons. Good ones tend to be more altruistic in their dealings with "lesser" beings. They spend less time manipulating other races, and instead try to stave off boredom with charitable deeds or great projects of improving the lives of those races. The end result is still the same, for the dragon- it gets to interact with other intelligent beings, and kills entire centuries that way.
As for gem dragons, they are not actually native to other planes, so they spend their time on the material plane for the same reason as other dragons- they are born and live there. Planar dragons are slightly different matter, being more closely tied to their plane of origin, but they still have the same drives as all the others do. And since not many humans are found in, say- Avernus, a dragon from there would be well-served to visit the material plane on occasion to enlarge its hoard, if for no other reason. Regarding dracoliches, there is no particular stigma against them- at least among chromatics- but very few are willing to give up the ability to continue to grow in size and power by doing so, unless they are near the end of their lives already, and wish to thwart the "dragon's twilight" of death. So although neither Tiamat or any chromatic truly despises dracoliches, most will only turn to undeath as a last resort. It goes without saying that good ones NEVER do.
Dragons sleep for long periods as part of their growth. Dragons do not grow steadily; instead, they grow in brief spurts while in their lairs, and sleep during this time to conserve their energy for the growth. A dragon will go into its lair, eat a portion of its hoard (remember the bond?!) and then sleep for several months. when it comes out, it will be larger, stronger, and generally more powerful magically and in abilities, as well. They also shed their outer scales at that time, much like a snake shedding its skin.
Hope this helps answer some of those questions! Arik's replies are correct, as far as they go, but I thought I'd shed some more light on the WHYS of some of their habits. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Arielis
Acolyte
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:58:21
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Thanks very much for your answers! It appears as though I confused which kinds of dragons live on the outer planes, but still my question was answered. Thank you!
Finally, the last question yet to be tackled: #1 The differences between male and female dragons!? Are there any even?
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'If you can't be good, be lucky!' |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:05:11
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| There really are not any differences AFAIK. Physically, it's very hard to tell the difference. (Without either asking the wyrm in question, or lifting it's tail and, um, checking...) Psychologically, females tend to be more protective of their lairs, at least when there are eggs or young. (How MUCH so depends more on the TYPE of dragon than its sex.) Both are territorial, though males will sometimes share a territory with females of their type, but never with other males. Females are more willing to share territories with others, at least to an extent. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 06:10:09
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I suppose dragon gender differences lack any mammalian behaviour characteristics; the parents, notably the mothers, wouldn't be particularly protective of their young (at least not as protective as they are of their lairs and hoards). Of course dragons wouldn't entirely neglect their eggs and young, they would still need to have some instincts to perpetuate their species. White dragons are generally the least intelligent true dragons (though still generally smarter than most humans), the FOR1 Draconomicon sourcebook seems to exaggerate this and describes whites as being stupid and clumsy, entirely neglecting and almost forgetting about their young, like dumb reptiles. Red dragons are described as being more brutal and eugenic; they force their young to compete and don't intervene when the strong kill the weak. Metallics are described as being more parental and nurturing, up to a point, to promote cooperative survival of their young.
Like many species of reptiles and avians, dragons might not manifest any exterior signs of gender unless within their seasonal mating cycle (and "seasonal" might mean once per century for all I know). Short of close anatomical inspection, there might be no visual differences other than pheromones and subtle behaviours - neither of which would be apparent to humans and nondragon species. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arielis
Acolyte
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 16:50:58
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Well I was thinking that some of those natural instincts would in fact spill off and effect personalities.
Like with humans. Women being more emotional than men could arguably be explained by the fact that women are needed to be more emotional in order to properly nurture their children. Men don't, so that aspect of them doesn't get as developed (or over-developed depending on your opinion).
So with the case of the Green dragon, who is much more nurturing when raising their offspring, could we assume that the female would perhaps interact different with allies it particularly liked (I know they enjoy double-crossing... work with me here!) or would react differently than other dragons if it ran into one of its offspring many hundreds of years later?
Or what about the silver dragon? Who can spend an entire lifetime living with humans/elves! Would it not unknowingly pick up some of the stereotypical habits of the men/women?
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'If you can't be good, be lucky!' |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:04:39
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Men and women tend to develop less extreme gender behaviours as they mature; men express "feminine" norturing emotional qualities in their personalities and thinking, while women express "masculine" results-oriented traits. At least towards middle-age, at least when they each become experienced in interacting with the opposite gender. The mental differences in human genders are most evident in youth, largely shaped by different growth stages being reached at different rates.
How this applies to the draconic life cycle is unknown; they take centuries to become "adults". I don't know if they mentally mature as a result of their many years of experience or as a result of their growth hormones. The gender behaviour distinctions of humans are shared by all other mammals (except hyenas, oddly), and most avians, but none of the reptiles. Capacity for nurturing (and greater intelligence) is also linked to social species. Dragons are quasi-reptilian and typically solitary.
Golds, silvers, and sometimes bronzes do often spend some time interacting with humans. Steels spend pretty much their entire lives "pretending" to be humans. They are all noted for being the most intelligent, magical, powerful, and social of the dragon species. There are fictional examples of dragons loving humans and loving their half-dragon offspring. I think it's a mistake to project human psychology, thinking, and emotional capacities onto nonhuman races like elves and dragons, even when we do share the same basic emotional traits (love, hate, anger, etc) they will express in different ways and for different reasons.
You might find the Dragon Shape Shifting scroll interesting. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jan 2011 18:38:54 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:41:18
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Dragons typically (it's different for each type) reach the young adult stage between 75-100 years, and after that, their maturity levels off, but even at a young age are still more mentally mature than a human at a similar life-stage. Also, eggs are generally laid 1-4 times in any given "age category" of a female dragon, again depending on type. Most female dragons have no more than a dozen clutches of eggs in their entire fertile life-spans, so dragons tend to be VERY protective of the ones they do have. Yes, whites are the least nurturing, although blacks are close behind them in terms of "neglect" (which basically amounts to simply forcing their young to fend for themselves after a few months), while reds do in fact encourage competition- though they are still EXTREMELY protective of their young from outside threats. (Read the Dragonlance Chronicles tome Dragons of Winter Night to get an idea of just HOW protective they can get!)
On the other end of the spectrum, metallics are very nurturing, and will allow the young wyrms to remain in the parents' lair for longer. (Often both parents will care for them, unlike most chromatics, where the male generally leaves even before they hatch, or only remains for a short time after- with blues and greens being the exception.) The easiest way to tell between males and females would likely be speech patterns and vocal differences (sounding more "feminine", for lack of a better description). Otherwise, behavior is one of the few ways to tell. as for half-dragons, they tend to be shunned as inferior, though a few dragons (typically metallics of a more open-minded nature) will accept them. Most others are simply either cast out or even killed at birth. Since dragons- even those who take humanoid mates- view all other races as inferior, most tend to see half-breeds as abominations- particularly among the over-proud chromatics. (Which, in addition to not having any natural ability to shape-change- which was ORIGINALLY the ONLY way a dragon could produce half-breed offspring- means that a chromatic would be more likely to kill such a half-breed than to allow it to live, even as a thrall or agent.) incidentally, most dragons will not mate with a dragon of a different type, and if they do, any resulting offspring (unlikely, as they tend to crack before hatching, which kills the dragon in the egg) would also probably be killed- or at least driven off, in the case of metallics. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:05:10
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There have been official rules for "rogue" dragon crossbreeds. Typically between dragons of similar alignment groupings, though any combination is technically possible, even gold/white or red/copper. They're so exceedingly rare they might as well be called mutants.
Planar dragons and "star dragons" (whatever their family is called) - like rust, adamantine, moon, sun, and stellar dragons - are essentially nonexistent in the Realms. I think the natives would notice a 1200' dragon with godlike powers living in their region. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:34:51
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| Social outcasts and solos who manage to survive tend to be stronger, smarter, and more dangerous than their "normal" counterparts. In every species on our world, including humans. I'm unsure whether such would apply to dragons, since they're already solitary and self-reliant. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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